Rob_D Posted January 13, 2022 Posted January 13, 2022 need[/i] to get the job, it certainly isn't something that's high on the list of things our SLT are looking for when they employ a teacher (although I'm sure they'd be grateful for an ICT subject leader/co-ordinator). The thing is we are Primary level and teachers need to know every subject as they teach a class, not a subject. There is an educational platform for them to use for a lot of it and so for the vast majority of the time they are not teaching from experience of the subject matter but more parrot fashion/paint by numbers, for instance we use Purple Mash to cover the Computing Curriculum (mainly because in our whole faculty we do not have a single teacher who has any great knowledge or even interest in computing). You say IT literacy isn't high on the list of requirements, yet primary teachers need to know every subject. But basic (and even some moderately advanced) IT is on the primary curriculum, so by that notion they do need to know basic IT, or at least be comfortable enough to follow along with the online resources.
Koldov Posted January 13, 2022 Posted January 13, 2022 See, there is an opposite problem here that nobody has mentioned... How about the teacher who is very 'tech savvy'... almost as many problems there? Also, I'm not sure many of the younger users who aren't over at least 30 would even know there are versions of a mouse or keyboard that has to be 'plugged in'! EDIT: I was going to post a picture of a 5 pin din, but that's old even for me... 1
E_G_R2 Posted January 13, 2022 Posted January 13, 2022 "IT Savvy" doesn't have to mean "Knows how to configure Arch Linux, can set up an Exchange Server in their sleep and can program a VCR", it can just mean "knows enough to perform their job role without having to ask where the Any key is all the time, can perform basic troubleshooting tasks before asking for help". There's a world of difference between someone having a problem thanks to a faulty bit of software or hardware between someone calling because the mouse isn't working because it's not plugged in. And the Arch Linux etc.. may well be the domain of the NM. I was thinking more of the tech's who's staple diet is 'fixing' these issues. Take them away and how is their role justified?
E_G_R2 Posted January 13, 2022 Posted January 13, 2022 Nope... It would allow us to be more strategic and spend less time wielding a metaphorical fire extinguisher. Maybe the NM but what about the Tech whose main role would be serving these issues? May be difficult to justify their role if they aren't seen running around the school with various cables etc..
hardtailstar Posted January 13, 2022 Posted January 13, 2022 See, there is an opposite problem here that nobody has mentioned... How about the teacher who is very 'tech savvy'... almost as many problems there? Also, I'm not sure many of the younger users who aren't over at least 30 would even know there are versions of a mouse or keyboard that has to be 'plugged in'! [ATTACH=CONFIG]64203[/ATTACH] EDIT: I was going to post a picture of a 5 pin din, but that's old even for me... At least in those days we had pictures of where things go!
Oaktech Posted January 13, 2022 Posted January 13, 2022 (edited) See, there is an opposite problem here that nobody has mentioned... How about the teacher who is very 'tech savvy'... almost as many problems there? Also, I'm not sure many of the younger users who aren't over at least 30 would even know there are versions of a mouse or keyboard that has to be 'plugged in'! [ATTACH=CONFIG]64203[/ATTACH] EDIT: I was going to post a picture of a 5 pin din, but that's old even for me... Christ, I'm showing my age here, they were still AT cases with a serial mouse when I started in IT! I've got one member of teaching staff who is ex-forces IT, and another who is an ex Sperry/Unisys mainframe programmer and whilst both of them still has a surprising number of problems, I can dispatch them with a verbal set of instructions and 9/10 the problem is solved and never re-occurs. Maybe the NM but what about the Tech whose main role would be serving these issues? May be difficult to justify their role if they aren't seen running around the school with various cables etc.. Couple of things... Self service password service only gets you so far, there will always be hardware issues that require a physical presence to fix and shouldn't be delegated to staff for H&S reasons and compliance is becoming a massive deal, techs who aren't removing coats from keyboards to stop computers from beeping can be gainfully employed ensuring endpoints are fully patched, batteries are not swelling and inventory management is fully up to date. Edited January 13, 2022 by Oaktech 1
Koldov Posted January 13, 2022 Posted January 13, 2022 You say IT literacy isn't high on the list of requirements, yet primary teachers need to know every subject. But basic (and even some moderately advanced) IT is on the primary curriculum, so by that notion they do need to know basic IT, or at least be comfortable enough to follow along with the online resources. You would hope/think so wouldn't you... But I will be totally honest and say that there are teachers here that take their class for IT/Computing lessons and yet struggle with some basic IT tasks. As long as the children can log on to the computer and double click the shortcut, I'm not sure there is much else they need to do and that's the only tech knowledge they need... as far as I'm aware the program takes them through all the steps. By the same token they are taught Primary School level Spanish by teachers that don't speak Spanish, they log on to the resource (with their limited tech skills) and that does the work for the subject matter. I guess then the 'teaching' part is about ensuring the children understand what they're supposed to do and keeping them engaged/learning, not knowing Spanish.
mw184 Posted January 13, 2022 Posted January 13, 2022 I think what is meant by basic troubleshooting here is checking something is plugged in before calling IT. Or checking the computer is actually turned on. Trying restarting the machine to see if the issue continues. Techs who fix issues for a living (first line etc) would not be out of a job. They are still going to be needed when the laptop fails or is smashed to bits and a screen needs replacing. Or when a driver goes haywire causing issues. To setup machines and accounts etc and also spend time learning and expanding their knowledge. It's things like not needed to call IT every time the printer jams that we are talking about. There are still so many things that a tech can do, and the whole business would benefit from having them be able to focus their time on the real issues and not the "walk in, press the power button and walk out" problems that I am certain we all have experienced. Even assisting the Network Manager on projects to help them lessen the load. We all know IT is often understaffed and being able to have your team focused without those interruptions that may be 2 second fixes but also take the long walk to the issue in the first place, would lessen the load and make everyone's lives less stressful and also the school would be happier when jobs get completed in a shorter time frame and to a higher standard, rather than rushed out of the door like most projects end up being. Not wanting to come across as having a go or anything, just putting my view on this one across as I think it is an important part of the whole discussion around these topics. 3
Norphy Posted January 13, 2022 Posted January 13, 2022 And the Arch Linux etc.. may well be the domain of the NM. I was thinking more of the tech's who's staple diet is 'fixing' these issues. Take them away and how is their role justified? Even then, there's a difference between what a first line tech should be reasonably expected to deal with than what they probably actually have to deal with. Example: User A: My computer gone done broken Tech: Have you tried turning it off and on again? User A: Uh... Tech: *sigh* I'll be right over *Tech reboots computer* User A: *Gets on with day* User B: Oh dear, this has stopped working. What can I do? *User B Reboots Computer* User B: Oh good, that's fixed it. *Gets on with day* If the problem is more severe: User C : Oh dear, this has stopped working. What can I do? *User C Reboots Computer* User C: Oh dear, the problem is still there. Let's call Tech Tech: Have you tried turning it off and on again? User C: Yes, that didn't help Tech: Try this, this and this. Is it working now: User C: *Tries* Sorry, no difference Tech: OK, I'll be over in X minutes There are always going to be problems which even reasonably tech savvy users aren't going to be able to fix. That shouldn't stop people from trying and just pushing crap onto techs that they shouldn't have to. I wouldn't take my car to the garage just because it needs its wiper fluid changing. However, if the wiper fluid pump stops working, that's when I'll go the garage but I'll make sure there's water in the reservoir first. People shouldn't be calling tech support for fundamentally simple things such as "Is it plugged in?" User B and C aren't putting Tech out of a job, they're just being diligent and considerate. User A us just irritating because invariably, they won't make the effort. 2
Ditto Posted January 13, 2022 Author Posted January 13, 2022 I wouldn't take my car to the garage just because it needs its wiper fluid changing. However, if the wiper fluid pump stops working, that's when I'll go the garage but I'll make sure there's water in the reservoir first.I think the wiper metaphor is fantastic. Deserving of a JVT award! https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av-embeds/59979504/vpid/p0bh0trh 1
Ditto Posted January 13, 2022 Author Posted January 13, 2022 One thing that has really struck me, and perhaps @Koldov captured it with "but she's not stupid, just not very IT literate", it shows our education system as a whole is lacking. The fact that use of technology is an issue for some post-graduates and some post teacher trained staff is quite frankly worrying. As others have pointed out, perhaps this has set up a vicious circle. Perhaps my view is slightly extreme, but in today's world the basic level of IT skills that should allow everyone coming out of school with the ability to save work is as fundamental as reading and writing. Like others, one of the sentence's that drive me insane is "I'm not good with computers" as a start point. They are an important, but not exclusive. tool in modern education. Trying my own JVT - how many teachers drive in to school? A lot, especially when you consider rural schools. Driving involves a lot of skills, and usual requires coordinating all four limbs! Imagine getting in to a car as a passenger and the driver says "I'm not good with driving" - not reassuring!
stevejp Posted January 13, 2022 Posted January 13, 2022 Thing is I've ran sessions for staff before for drop-in/ask me anything (IT-related) sessions before. WiFi, logons, how to do this etc. I've had 1x taker in all that time and they only attended the one. Possibly a case of not knowing what they don’t know? Generally users know what they need to do the ‘day job’. It’s only when something goes wrong that they realise they don’t know how to fix it. 1
DrBeaker Posted January 13, 2022 Posted January 13, 2022 Possibly a case of not knowing what they don’t know? Generally users know what they need to do the ‘day job’. It’s only when something goes wrong that they realise they don’t know how to fix it. We've done what we can, if they weren't interested, fair enough I get it. But they've got to meet us halfway as we can only say next time we can't do that again due to lack of interest and can't say they weren't offered help (which they often claim). 1
Koldov Posted January 14, 2022 Posted January 14, 2022 (edited) I wouldn't take my car to the garage just because it needs its wiper fluid changing. I initially thought that wasn't a very good analogy, but it is.... because (and sorry to say this), but there are plenty of people who would take their car to a garage for that... And mixing it with this... Trying my own JVT - how many teachers drive in to school? A lot, especially when you consider rural schools. Driving involves a lot of skills, and usual requires coordinating all four limbs! Imagine getting in to a car as a passenger and the driver says "I'm not good with driving" - not reassuring! ...actually sums it up perfectly! The 'driver' is trained to drive the car (passes test)... The driver is NOT trained to open the bonnet locate the correct reservoir and fill the fluid. Whether or not the person is the type to look in the handbook for the vehicle, work out how to open the bonnet, find out which one is the screen wash, get the appropriate mix for the conditions and fill it up to the required level (the metaphors are hopefully obvious) is down to the individual's confidence, common-sense (and skill level/competence) in doing it and if they even feel the need to take the time to learn about it - especially when there is someone around who can fix it easily (or just by being in the room sometimes and then they can continue to concentrate on just doing the 'driving' part). We may be the type that does it, others are not (that is life in general), I can tell you for a fact if my OH needs this doing it will be me that does it (just as she does when her second monitor doesn't come on, or her mouse doesn't work, or she can't get connected to the internet etc. It will be me that she calls no matter how many times I tell her how to do it). You may argue that the 'driver' should take the time to learn all these things (or at least the basics - no need to train as a 'mechanic'), but as it stands it does not (as far as I know) prevent you from taking the test and driving a car (and yet how long have we been driving cars?)... Edited January 14, 2022 by Koldov
paulkerton Posted January 14, 2022 Posted January 14, 2022 You say IT literacy isn't high on the list of requirements, yet primary teachers need to know every subject. But basic (and even some moderately advanced) IT is on the primary curriculum, so by that notion they do need to know basic IT, or at least be comfortable enough to follow along with the online resources. As I've always said, when it comes to subjects teachers are uncomfortable with, especially at Primary level... You just need to be one lesson ahead.
paulkerton Posted January 14, 2022 Posted January 14, 2022 The 'driver' is trained to drive the car (passes test)... The driver is NOT trained to open the bonnet locate the correct reservoir and fill the fluid. Someone has been qualified for a while havent they? This is actually part of your driving lessons and test now... 2
clareq Posted January 14, 2022 Posted January 14, 2022 I initially thought that wasn't a very good analogy, but it is.... because (and sorry to say this), but there are plenty of people who would take their car to a garage for that... And mixing it with the this... ...actually sums it up perfectly! The 'driver' is trained to drive the car (passes test)... The driver is NOT trained to open the bonnet locate the correct reservoir and fill the fluid. Whether or not the person is the type to look in the handbook for the vehicle, work out how to open the bonnet, find out which one is the screen wash, get the appropriate mix for the conditions and fill it up to the required level (the metaphors are hopefully obvious) is down to the individual's confidence, common-sense (and skill level/competence) in doing it and if they even feel the need to take the time to learn about it - especially when there is someone around who can fix it easily (or just by being in the room sometimes and then they can continue to concentrate on just doing the 'driving' part). We may be the type that does it, others are not (that is life in general), I can tell you for a fact if my OH needs this doing it will be me that does it (just as she does when her second monitor doesn't come on, or her mouse doesn't work, or she can't get connected to the internet etc. It will be me that she calls no matter how many times I tell her how to do it). You may argue that the 'driver' should take the time to learn all these things (or at least the basics - no need to train as a 'mechanic'), but as it stands it does not (as far as I know) prevent you from taking the test and driving a car (and yet how long have we been driving cars?)... But this is part of the test now - you need to demonstrate that you can drive the vehicle safely, which includes basic mechanical checks: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/car-show-me-tell-me-vehicle-safety-questions/car-show-me-tell-me-vehicle-safety-questions I use the driving analogy a lot - I hate driving, but I'm required to do it in order to do my job. I will therefore drive to the best of my ability, and endeavour not to crash. Much like computers and many teachers really - they might hate computers, but are required to use them in order to do their job. 1
Koldov Posted January 14, 2022 Posted January 14, 2022 Someone has been qualified for a while havent they? This is actually part of your driving lessons and test now... Well.... erm... quite a while yes... That might make a complete mockery of my post but.... is it this? Show Me / Tell Me - Accelerate Motoring School If so, can I turn this around, save face and still make it relevant somehow by saying you won't fail the test if you don't know how to fill the screen-wash reservoir?
paulkerton Posted January 14, 2022 Posted January 14, 2022 Well.... erm... quite a while yes... That might make a complete mockery of my post but.... is it this? Show Me / Tell Me - Accelerate Motoring School If so, can I turn this around, save face and still make it relevant somehow by saying you won't fail the test if you don't know how to fill the screen-wash reservoir? Hahaha! This has made me genuinely lol, rather than just type it! Well, it's 2 questions, and 2 potential minors. If you end up getting 17 minors to fail and getting both the show me, tell me questions wrong you could argue... just sayin is all...
Andrew_C Posted January 14, 2022 Posted January 14, 2022 "I can't stand how it saves automatically for you" Fine. Save it. BUT TELL ME WHERE FFS!!! That sort of venom? Totally justified! 1
Koldov Posted January 14, 2022 Posted January 14, 2022 (edited) Sure, but going from the link in the post from @clareq I have searched for 'screen' and not found any 'filling the screen-wash' questions. Semantics maybe, pedantic... possibly, but I'm just going on the evidence. In fact it may also help my cause... Basic IT skills are not trained in any teacher training and are not a requirement to get the job. Just as when I took my test it wasn't required to know how to do basic safety checks on the vehicle (or follow a sat-nav, or do a computer test for that matter). I know times have changed etc. but as someone pointed out teacher training hasn't much... If they aren't a 'requirement' of the job, you cannot hold anyone culpable for not having them (as someone else has said - no more than any other member of 'joe public')... If they are unwilling to learn then that is what you would call a people problem, maybe a certain type of person, or a demographic maybe more inclined not to have them or not want to learn (as well as dealing with everything it takes to be a teacher). EDIT: What do you mean... 'teachers' are the demographic...? Edited January 14, 2022 by Koldov
msi_school Posted January 14, 2022 Posted January 14, 2022 (edited) I don't really think you can do something like a 'drop-in' session for issues that they don't see as an issue...? Probably spent their time better - marking books, updating learning logs, photocopying resources, wondering how to keep little Timmy engaged, or just having a well earned sit down and cuppa in the staff room, etc... I guess that's what really goes round in their mind. I'm sure anything IT related isn't a focus of their job (no matter how crucial to doing the job it might seem) it is secondary. We all know the feeling of being called into a classroom and being asked to get X,Y or Z working as they want to use it in this lesson (or the planning says they have to). Yet, when asked if they have used it before or made sure it all works before the lesson you are met with a blank look... Like "when did I have the time to do that"? The issue for me is that they seem to think is is vital when they are berating me for it not working, I am happy that it is integral to the endeavor or that it is trivial but you can't have it both ways. I work in a support role and I understand this I will happily deliver what the school wants but this has to be laid out and supported. Edited January 14, 2022 by msi_school spelling
paulkerton Posted January 14, 2022 Posted January 14, 2022 We all know the feeling of being called into a classroom and being asked to get X,Y or Z working as they want to use it in this lesson (or the planning says they have to). Yet, when asked if they have used it before or made sure it all works before the lesson you are met with a blank look... Like "when did I have the time to do that"? Ahh this reminds me of a stand-up argument I had with a deputy head when they suggested I should check every trolley after every lesson to make sure they were plugged in and charged ready for the next lesson. Suffice to say I pointed out that if a teacher with a teaching assistant couldn't arrange for children to plug them in properly after use, they shouldn't be using them in the first place. Oh the fun I had with that one. 3
Koldov Posted January 14, 2022 Posted January 14, 2022 Similar to something I used to do... when we first got iPads years ago I was told to go round after school and check every trolley making sure they were plugged in, charging... oh and also to make sure they were all still there! Well, that soon came to an abrupt halt when after school one day I found that one was missing... children had all gone home (as had most of the teachers). SLT had to join me in turning the class upside down, but we didn't find it. Next day children were questioned, bags and lockers searched.... turns out a teacher from another year group had 'borrowed' it, forgotten and left it in their desk drawer. Needless to say SLT were quite accepting of my proposal to have the class teacher or TA be responsible for checking them before the children went home.
Disease Posted January 14, 2022 Posted January 14, 2022 I often wonder what some teachers do when they have problems at home, if their TV/Sky goes off do they just sit there dumbfounded wondering who to call and end up calling a TV repair guy or do they get up and reboot the TV/SKY box first and if it doesn't work then call the TV man? 2
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