ESS SIMS 3 Year Contracts

[mavhc]

14000 schools * how much average per school?

[FragglePete]

14000 schools * how much average per school?

 

Depends on number of pupils and if primary or secondary, but for us it's around £9k per year - this is just for SIMS itself. If you do a rough calculation yourself, it's an eye watering amount of money for a product that still looks like it was designed in the 90s.

 

Pete

[paulkerton]

Depends on number of pupils and if primary or secondary, but for us it's around £9k per year - this is just for SIMS itself. If you do a rough calculation yourself, it's an eye watering amount of money for a product that still looks like it was designed in the 90s.

 

Pete

 

And then you look at the amount that Montagu paid for it, and you realise that eye watering amount overvalued the product by 4 to 5 times.

[sefton]

I think Arbor are stretched at the moment with the number of schools joining, I enquired about a new Primary in our Trust moving and the earliest they can do November.

[Ditto]

I think Arbor are stretched at the moment with the number of schools joining, I enquired about a new Primary in our Trust moving and the earliest they can do November.

I hope they see that as a 'good' problem. The real challenge is keeping customer service and satisfaction levels high and sometimes that means turning customers away or at least delaying them.

[speakercon]

Has anyone who has stayed with sims seen any of the 'Next Gen software features from early 2022' that were spoken about?

[FragglePete]

Has anyone who has stayed with sims seen any of the 'Next Gen software features from early 2022' that were spoken about?

 

Nope - all promises broken so far. If I receive another e-mail / see another video telling me how they're investing £40m into SIMS Next Gen ...........

 

Pete

[sefton]

I hope they see that as a 'good' problem. The real challenge is keeping customer service and satisfaction levels high and sometimes that means turning customers away or at least delaying them.

 

I agree, if they tried to migrate schools without proper project management then it could damage their reputation.

[mavhc]

We're investing £40 million, £1 per year for 40 million years.

[supportman]

Has anyone who has stayed with sims seen any of the 'Next Gen software features from early 2022' that were spoken about?

 

Someone I spoke to was on the pilot but what they saw made them move to Bromcom, I helped them with a few migration tips!

There is apparently a new native cloud MIS coming, but I can't imagine how its all going to work with legacy users. You might as well move to Bromcom or Arbor, as they have developed now for years.

 

And the 3 year tie in tells you everything you need to know about the expected timescales.

[Marci]

I'm almost certain that doesn't include the 100+ West Sussex schools who Bromcom got.

 

205 altogether I seem to recall...

 

https://schoolsweek.co.uk/bromcom-to-supply-mis-finance-software-for-200-west-sussex-maintained-schools/

[supportman]

205 altogether I seem to recall...

[ATTACH=CONFIG]65936[/ATTACH]

 

https://schoolsweek.co.uk/bromcom-to-supply-mis-finance-software-for-200-west-sussex-maintained-schools/

 

Sounds like the west sussex schools will be completed in July, doubt they will show in the next census numbers though.

[Ditto]

It's out - latest MIS market update.

https://bringmoredata.blogspot.com/2022/07/mis-market-moves-summer-2022-sims-lose.html

[Mel_TeamSOS]

It's out - latest MIS market update.

https://bringmoredata.blogspot.com/2022/07/mis-market-moves-summer-2022-sims-lose.html

 

So interesting, especially based on the 200+ schools mentioned above not completing through until July.

 

Huge market share moving in such a short period.

 

Also interesting of these, the trend that once a school move once to cloud based, they are more likely to move again over the trend in last few years!

 

Looks like lots of interesting moves coming up with the new cloud based MIS entering the market too! Would be very interested to hear the stats of how many of the schools who were offered the 6month break clause of how many took it and moved!

[paulkerton]

Forcing everyone onto a 3 year contract ended up being the equivalent of punching themselves in their own face. Who would've thought it?!

[Steve21]

Not sure if everyone's seen it yet, but thought it might help some people as seems ESS are offering more "extensions" in certain contexts: https://www.ess-sims.co.uk/breakoffers

 

Important notice: SIMS break clause update (ESS001)

Background

 

We have been asked by a small number of customers who have contracted to move to a new MIS supplier on or before 30th September 2022 and who have decided to exercise, or have already exercised, their break clause right, to extend their existing Annual Entitlement (AE) agreement because, for reasons outside their control, they are unable to move to their new MIS supplier by 30th September 2022 when their existing ESS AE agreement expires. To accommodate these requests, we have decided to make available the following three new software and support extension offers.

 

If you have a perpetual licence for your SIMS and/or FMS software, then you are entitled to install this software on servers in your premises and to use this software in perpetuity.

 

ESS provides updates to this software, including updates that allow you to perform statutory returns, at least three times annually, with updates for statutory returns being provided no later than the term before the statutory return is due.

 

Customers who are licensed to use SIMS and/or FMS, and who have a current AE agreement with ESS at the time a software update is released, are entitled to receive and use these updates while they remain licenced users. Accordingly, if you do not have a perpetual licence, and rely upon the software licence included in your AE agreement to licence your SIMS and/or FMS software, then on termination of your AE agreement you will no longer be entitled to continue using SIMS and/or FMS and you should delete all unlicensed copies of ESS software from your systems.

 

This means that if you are a customer without a perpetual licence who has a break clause in their new 3-year AE agreement and you validly exercise your break clause right to terminate your AE agreement on 30th September 2022, then you will not be able to produce statutory returns using SIMS and/or FMS from 1st October 2022 onwards.

 

(i) 4-month software licence extension offer

 

If you are a customer without a perpetual software licence for core SIMS and/or FMS and have validly exercised a break clause right to terminate your AE agreement on 30th September 2022, having already contracted to move to a different management information and/or financial management system supplier, and for any reason your new supplier cannot migrate you to their system by 30th September 2022, ESS is offering a 4-month software licence extension that will allow you to use SIMS and/or FMS to produce statutory returns during the 2022 autumn term.

 

If you meet these conditions and would like to take up this offer, please contact us at [email protected]. In response we will provide you with a quotation and terms, which you should accept by 14th October 2022 if you wish to take up the offer.

 

Your email should include “4-month software licence extension offer”, your school’s name, postcode, DfE number and the quotation number of the AE agreement for which you wish to request the licence extension together with evidence that you have already contracted with an alternative supplier with services due to commence by 30th September 2022.

 

(ii) 4-month technical support extension offer

 

If you have validly exercised a break clause right to terminate your AE agreement on 30th September 2022 but continue to require technical support for your licensed SIMS and/or FMS software during the period 1st October 2022 to 31st January 2023, ESS is able to provide you with a 4-month 1st, 2nd and 3rd line technical support agreement, which will include the provision of any relevant software patches released by ESS during the term of the agreement.

 

Please note that If your SIMS and/or FMS software licence expires on 30th September 2022, to take up this offer you will need to also take up the software licence offer set out in (i) above.

 

If you meet these conditions and would like to take up this offer, please contact us at [email protected]. In response, we will provide you with a quotation and terms, which you should accept by 14th October 2022 if you wish to take up the offer.

 

Your email should include “4-month technical support extension offer”, your school’s name, postcode, DfE number and the quotation number of the AE agreement for which you wish to request the technical support extension.

 

(iii) A combined software licence, technical support and software update extension offer

 

If you have a new 3-year core SIMS and/or FMS AE agreement that includes a break clause allowing you to terminate this agreement on 30th September 2022, and you validly exercise this break clause right; and

 

a) you have contracted with an alternative supplier to switch away from SIMS and/or FMS by 30th September 2022 prior to exercising your break clause right; but

 

b) for reasons outside of your control your alternative supplier fails to switch your school to their system before 30th September 2022 and is unable to reschedule the switch before the 2023 spring term:

 

then:

 

for customers with perpetual core SIMS and/or FMS software licences, ESS will offer a 6-month agreement running from 1st October 2022 to 31st March 2023, which will include access to 1st, 2nd and 3rd line technical support and software updates and that will allow you to produce 2023 spring term statutory returns, subject to your agreeing to terminate your perpetual core SIMS and/or FMS software licences from 31st March 2023.

 

for customers without perpetual core SIMS and/or FMS software licences, ESS will offer a 2-month agreement running from 1st February to 31st March 2023, which will include a software licence and access to 1st, 2nd and 3rd line technical support and software updates released in the period from 1st October 2022 to 31st March 2023, provided that the customer has taken up the 4-month software licence and technical support extension offers set out in (i) and (ii) above. This agreement will allow customers to produce 2023 spring term statutory returns and will ensure that customers without perpetual licences will be able to benefit from the same overall 6-month extension period as customers with perpetual licences.

 

If you meet these conditions and would like to take up this offer, please contact us at [email protected]. In response, we will provide you with a quotation and terms, which you should accept by 9th December 2022 if you wish to take up the offer.

 

Your email should include “A combined software licence, technical support and software update extension offer”, your school’s name, postcode, DfE number and the quotation number of the AE agreement for which you wish to request the extension together with evidence that you have already contracted with an alternative supplier with services due to commence by 30th September 2022 and that the supplier is now unable to switch you by that date.

 

Please note that:

 

If your new 3-year AE agreement includes a break clause, to validly exercise your break clause rights you must first have paid your AE invoice and any other outstanding ESS invoices in full. Any licence / service provided under the Extension Offer arrangements will be provided on comparable commercial terms to those ESS uses to provide these licences / services to schools who currently contract with ESS directly for the provision of equivalent licences / services.

 

Neither the 4-month technical support agreement nor the 4-month software licence extension includes access to software updates that will allow you to undertake 2023 spring term statutory returns.

 

SIMS Support Units are contractually unable to provide support for SIMS and/or FMS users who do not have a current AE agreement with ESS, so if you require SIMS and/or FMS technical support after you have terminated your AE agreement this can only be obtained from ESS.

 

If your new 3-year AE agreement includes a break clause, to validly exercise your break clause rights you must first have paid your AE invoice and any other outstanding ESS invoices in full.

 

Any licence / service provided under the Extension Offer arrangements will be provided on comparable commercial terms to those ESS uses to provide these licences / services to schools who currently contract with ESS directly for the provision of equivalent licences / services.

 

Steve

[JamesWeatherill]

Worth noting that SIMS have published yet another update to their break clause here https://www.ess-sims.co.uk/sims-break-clause-update

 

In brief there are 3 offers (my paraphrasing):

 

1. Schools who have used the break-clause but for reasons out of their control could not migrate in time (4 month extension)

 

2. Schools who wanted to use the break clause but have 'objective evidence' they could not switch in time (12 month extension)

 

3. Schools who tried to use the break clause but were refused by SIMS because they failed to sign their Annual Entitlement or apply for the break clause in time (9 months extension)

[DrCheese]

Wow, this is some grade A utter nonsense (I'd rather write something else, but professional forum)

 

B Conditional Break Clause Offer – Customers who did not request the 6-month break clause

ESS is making available a 12-month break clause offer to any customer who has already entered into a standard 3-year AE agreement with ESS for core SIMS and/or FMS AE services commencing on 1st April 2022 and that was not subject to a 6-month break clause right, provided that the customer:

 

can provide objective evidence that

at the time ESS made its 6-month break clause offer (being from 12th January 2022 to 20th February 2022), it had a clear intention to switch to an alternate supplier; and

it did not apply for the break clause because it reasonably concluded that it would be unable to switch to an alternate supplier in the time available for reasons outside its control

 

So if you didn't request the break clause, you can now get one but you must have proof that you considered swapping MIS but didn't because you didn't think it would be possible in the time allowed

How on earth do you even prove that?

 

All this shows me is that EES are running scared of the CMA & they're trying to get ahead of any slap down they rightly deserve.

[ASA-Simon]

Does the break clause really matter all that much if Arbor and Bromcom are offering to let you switch and pay nothing until the end of your contract?

[CHiLL]

For Birmingham City Council schools who have initiated the break clause - it's worth checking that the payment has gone through. With all the council's still ongoing payment issues, we had an email from ESS saying that payment is required for the break clause to be valid. It turns out that we had actually paid, just ESS hadn't actually confirmed, but it's worth those who are under BCC to check.

[psydii]

Wow, this is some grade A utter nonsense (I'd rather write something else, but professional forum)

 

So if you didn't request the break clause, you can now get one but you must have proof that you considered swapping MIS but didn't because you didn't think it would be possible in the time allowed

How on earth do you even prove that?

 

I would guess they are trying to tread a line between their customers, the CMO, and their shareholder.

 

 

As for how your would prove that you had considered taking up the break clause... well if you really were considering it seriously there would be an email/minutes from meetings between at least some of IT / Data / Senior Management / Finance / Governors, I would imagine an email with a cost model and a proposal, and an email saying "we don't have time" would do.

[bald_pig]

Does the break clause really matter all that much if Arbor and Bromcom are offering to let you switch and pay nothing until the end of your contract?

 

Yes. Not everybody will want to move to Arbor or Bromcom...

[paulkerton]

Yes. Not everybody will want to move to Arbor or Bromcom...

 

I'm sure any company smaller than Arbor/Scholarpack or Bromcom would do a similar deal that would negate the break clause.

[JU-wishingmoon]

Wow, this is some grade A utter nonsense (I'd rather write something else, but professional forum)

 

So if you didn't request the break clause, you can now get one but you must have proof that you considered swapping MIS but didn't because you didn't think it would be possible in the time allowed

How on earth do you even prove that?

All this shows me is that EES are running scared of the CMA & they're trying to get ahead of any slap down they rightly deserve.

 

There will be evidence in internal conversations/emails and this would be (should be) in governors minutes. I've got quite a few emails myself of schools wanting to switch to another MIS though not enough time for training staff in August / September. ESS timing is very ...well.... timely!

[RLR]

We asked several times about a break clause but we could never get an answer. It's like no one at ESS knew anything about it even though lots of schools had already been offered it. Doesn't matter now as we're moving to iSAMS.