ESS SIMS 3 Year Contracts

[enjay]

It isn't just ESS doing this. We've just renewed our Parago licence for the first time since Civica bought them. They sent me a 4 year agreement, when I asked about shorter agreements they offered 3 years and said they could do 1 year but it would cost an extra 30-35%.

[paulkerton]

It isn't just ESS doing this. We've just renewed our Parago licence for the first time since Civica bought them. They sent me a 4 year agreement, when I asked about shorter agreements they offered 3 years and said they could do 1 year but it would cost an extra 30-35%.

I'm guessing the difference is, and it's a big difference - that at the current time Parago doesn't have a 70% monopoly and a change averse intransigence built in due to the monopoly.

Also larger per year cost for a shorter contract isn't unheard of, and at least they're allowing you to have a 1 year contract if you wanted it. With ESS it was 3 years or nothing.

[enjay]

I'm guessing the difference is, and it's a big difference - that at the current time Parago doesn't have a 70% monopoly and a change averse intransigence built in due to the monopoly.

Also larger per year cost for a shorter contract isn't unheard of, and at least they're allowing you to have a 1 year contract if you wanted it. With ESS it was 3 years or nothing.

 

Agreed, they're not totally comparable. It was just interesting to note their default agreement was 4 years, and it was only when questioned they offered something shorter. Even then, the 1 year was "we don't normally do this" and "I'd have to check with my manager". We renewed for 3 in the end!

[paulkerton]

Agreed, they're not totally comparable. It was just interesting to note their default agreement was 4 years, and it was only when questioned they offered something shorter. Even then, the 1 year was "we don't normally do this" and "I'd have to check with my manager". We renewed for 3 in the end!

 

Was it your first renewal with them as well? The difference might be that they've always done three year renewals, whereas with SIMS it was always a yearly renewal before last year.

[enjay]

Was it your first renewal with them as well? The difference might be that they've always done three year renewals, whereas with SIMS it was always a yearly renewal before last year.

 

We bought Parago for 3 years, this was our first renewal and it was with Civica because they bought Parago during those 3 years.

[Ditto]

This could go in multiple threads, but this one is most active recently. For those that have switched MIS in the last 2 years, perhaps you can help @bringmoredata and reply to his twitter survey at

[enjay]

This could go in multiple threads, but this one is most active recently. For those that have switched MIS in the last 2 years, perhaps you can help @bringmoredata and reply to his twitter survey at

 

"Because of the 3 year lock-in" isn't an option in the survey...

[LeMarchand]

Nor "better value for money".

[Ditto]

"Because of the 3 year lock-in" isn't an option in the survey...

 

True and the point is made early in the twitter feed but Joshua has outlined his response there where had had considered including that option but wanted to focus more on why you picked the one you did, rather than why you left the previous. If none apply, he has invited that you can reply on twitter.

[mavhc]

It isn't just ESS doing this. We've just renewed our Parago licence for the first time since Civica bought them. They sent me a 4 year agreement, when I asked about shorter agreements they offered 3 years and said they could do 1 year but it would cost an extra 30-35%.

 

Just use snipe-it, it's free

[mobrien]

I'm sure thats useful to some, but its important to ask why you needed to import linked documents migrated into a new MIS...?

 

We just exported the old Sims documents to a file server (with the salamander tool) and left them there, sorted by admission number. If any person wanted the reports, or something else we just go there to get them. I think i've had 3 requests in 2 years for this.

 

The reason Bromcom don't import is because its like pushing a square peg into a round hole. Bromcom doesnt need a lot of linked documents becuase it has many features inbuilt into the web UI. The whole point of it is to get away from linked documents

 

By importing them there is a chance that people continue to use them like they did in Sims, missing out on many of the efficiencies of the new MIS.

 

Could't agree more. We did the same with documents.

If you move MIS, my advice would be to use it as a pruning exercise and to avoid the 'I used to do it like this in SIMS' approach. After all, if you have moved away from SIMS it is probably becuase you want to do things differently!

We moved to Bromcom in April and once we worked out that this was not SIMS and that the entire structure behind Bromcom is actually much better realised, it has started becoming brilliant.

SIMS always felt like it had so many discrete parts with little seamless integration. Bromcom is feeling like it is solving those problems.We've got a fairly complex system of marksheets. In SIMS this equates to around 700 sheets. Bromcom, got it down to 10 so far! And this is only one example.

And having just done exam results and start of year processes, this has also worked really well. Total doddle compared with SIMS. Definitely worth the change 4 months on.

[JamesWeatherill]

A new school year, a new break clause!

 

I just wanted to reach out if you’re a SIMS school looking to switch MIS systems as you may not be aware that over the summer holidays ESS released a new set of break clauses that gives you from 9-12 months to find a new provider. It’s a bit confusing, so I thought I’d try to help schools understand what their options are:

 

 

1. You can have up to 12 months to get out of your SIMS contract if you can provide “objective evidence” that you wanted to switch MIS, but felt you didn’t have enough time (read more here)
   
2. You can have up to 9 months to get out of your SIMS contract if you requested a break clause previously but SIMS rejected you as you failed to meet one of their terms (read more here)
   
3. Or better yet, you can use Arbor’s Pay-for-One Promise to switch MIS anytime without double-paying (even if you’re stuck in a contract)! We won’t charge you for your core license until your SIMS contract expires
   

 

If you want a break clause you have to request it by 30th September 2022, so you only have just over a week!

 

If that feels like too little time given the start of term, then just pick option 3 and we can help you migrate at a time that suits you. Over 2,000 schools switched to Arbor last year, we’re consistently voted industry favourite by primary, secondary and special schools, with more MATs and schools using our MIS than any other cloud-based provider.

 

If you have any questions or just want an informal chat just email me at james @ arbor-education.com (I do check edugeek or linkedin messages frequently but not every day!)

[supportman]

Some interesting views from @PhilNeal on the contracts and strategy of sims in the future.

 

 

I have to say I agree with a lot of things he said, particularly around Aims and how innovative it is. Why parent pay think they can just bolt on a cloud product that "syncs" with Sims is beyond me.

 

Also interesting to hear how Sims 8 was good but just wasnt built in time, I'm guessing the sale of ESS stopped all that and of course dealing with legacy Sims technology.

 

I was shouting at the screen a little when they discuss the the slow down in innovation for larger companies though. We need to learn from the american software giants on this, quick innovation can work in agile environments. Just look how Microsoft or Google add new features these days in live environments and quickly move on from products or services that dont work.

 

Anyway, its a great video to watch if you are interested in the MIS market.

[supportman]

I believe this is now public, so here you go:

 

We are writing to inform you that the CMA has today launched a public consultation inviting representations from you (alongside other interested parties) on commitments offered by ESS in relation to the CMA’s investigation into ESS’ move to 3-year contracts for school management information system (MIS) software in England and Wales.

 

The consultation relates to ESS’ offer to give legally binding assurances, known as commitments, which would enable certain schools - broadly those schools who had considered switching providers but had been given insufficient time to do so - to apply to an independent adjudicator for a new break clause to allow them to exit their current three-year contract with ESS and choose alternative providers.

 

The CMA considers that the proposed commitments address its competition concerns by giving affected schools the choice to exit their current three-year contract and plan and implement a switch to another MIS supplier, facilitating competition.

 

If you wish to comment on the CMA’s consultation, please submit written representations to Louise Banér and Clementine Messent at [email protected] by 5pm on 8 December 2022.

 

This appears like a sensible compromise solution to me. I wonder how many schools will actually take it up though....?

Edited November 17, 2022 by supportman

[Ditto]

I believe this is now public, so here you go:

 

 

 

This appears like a sensible compromise solution to me. I wonder how many schools will actually take it up though....?

 

For me it doesn't go anywhere near far enough. Firstly, I'd like to see a judgement as to whether they have abused their dominant position and depending on that conclusion, take appropriate action. If the answer is yes, the 3 year contracts need to be dismissed and changed to 1 year. Guidance on what would constitute 'fair notice' for a renewal of 3 years should then be provided for the next renewal cycle. The use of an 'independent adjudicator' sounds just like more work and stress on schools and likely to be a disincentive for schools meaning ESS have the outcome they want for many schools.

 

And seriously, for the CMA to spend 6 months to get to this point - well, disappointing would understate it.

 

Given earlier published CMA statements, I presume there is more to come - or is that it?!

[Primus]

For me it doesn't go anywhere near far enough. Firstly, I'd like to see a judgement as to whether they have abused their dominant position and depending on that conclusion, take appropriate action. If the answer is yes, the 3 year contracts need to be dismissed and changed to 1 year. Guidance on what would constitute 'fair notice' for a renewal of 3 years should then be provided for the next renewal cycle. The use of an 'independent adjudicator' sounds just like more work and stress on schools and likely to be a disincentive for schools meaning ESS have the outcome they want for many schools.

 

And seriously, for the CMA to spend 6 months to get to this point - well, disappointing would understate it.

 

Given earlier published CMA statements, I presume there is more to come - or is that it?!

 

I completely agree.

[saggu]

A new school year, a new break clause!

 

I just wanted to reach out if you’re a SIMS school looking to switch MIS systems as you may not be aware that over the summer holidays ESS released a new set of break clauses that gives you from 9-12 months to find a new provider. It’s a bit confusing, so I thought I’d try to help schools understand what their options are:

 

 

1. You can have up to 12 months to get out of your SIMS contract if you can provide “objective evidence” that you wanted to switch MIS, but felt you didn’t have enough time (read more here)
   
2. You can have up to 9 months to get out of your SIMS contract if you requested a break clause previously but SIMS rejected you as you failed to meet one of their terms (read more here)
   
3. Or better yet, you can use Arbor’s Pay-for-One Promise to switch MIS anytime without double-paying (even if you’re stuck in a contract)! We won’t charge you for your core license until your SIMS contract expires
   

 

If you want a break clause you have to request it by 30th September 2022, so you only have just over a week!

 

If that feels like too little time given the start of term, then just pick option 3 and we can help you migrate at a time that suits you. Over 2,000 schools switched to Arbor last year, we’re consistently voted industry favourite by primary, secondary and special schools, with more MATs and schools using our MIS than any other cloud-based provider.

 

If you have any questions or just want an informal chat just email me at james @ arbor-education.com (I do check edugeek or linkedin messages frequently but not every day!)

 

Hello Jame,

 

Arbor's "Pay-for-One Promise to switch MIS anytime without double-paying (even if you’re stuck in a contract)! We won’t charge you for your core license until your SIMS contract expires" is very tempting. What happens to FMS? Schools use FMS with SIMS. If the school move to Arbor then can school change to another fianace system? if so, then who do school pay? SIMS, Arbor or new finance system?

 

Thanks

[JamesWeatherill]

Hi @saggu

 

You have a choice with FMS. You can either keep using it (as many of our schools do), or switch to an alternative finance system, many of whom have similar deals to us. You would always only pay Arbor only for MIS and your finance provider for your finance system.

 

We are a big believer that schools should choose the best MIS and finance system that is right for them, and want to offer choice. The integration between the two is minimal. Happy to advise on systems we work with if you send a message to james at arbor-education.com

[saggu]

Hi @saggu

 

You have a choice with FMS. You can either keep using it (as many of our schools do), or switch to an alternative finance system, many of whom have similar deals to us. You would always only pay Arbor only for MIS and your finance provider for your finance system.

 

We are a big believer that schools should choose the best MIS and finance system that is right for them, and want to offer choice. The integration between the two is minimal. Happy to advise on systems we work with if you send a message to james at arbor-education.com

Thanks James for the clarification. It is good to know that existing FMS system will work even if the MIS is changed to Arbor .

I think many schools chose to use 'Access' for their FMS.

[TwistedHelixis]

Arbor's "Pay-for-One Promise to switch MIS anytime without double-paying (even if you’re stuck in a contract)! We won’t charge you for your core license until your SIMS contract expires" is very tempting. What happens to FMS? Schools use FMS with SIMS. If the school move to Arbor then can school change to another fianace system? if so, then who do school pay? SIMS, Arbor or new finance system?

 

Our LA are still charging us for SIMS licences (discounted) even though we no longer use SIMS, as they insist on us using FMS, and our LA supply both as a single package. NIGHTMARE

[DrCheese]

Our LA are still charging us for SIMS licences (discounted) even though we no longer use SIMS, as they insist on us using FMS, and our LA supply both as a single package. NIGHTMARE

 

Yes, ESS are using FMS to justify charging you virtually full price for SIMS. I remember this came up pretty early that if you drop SIMS but want to keep FMS they just slap the price of FMS up to what SIMS was anyway.

Thankfully this is one of the things the CMA are looking into, as it's yet another con job.

[Ditto]

Our LA are still charging us for SIMS licences (discounted) even though we no longer use SIMS, as they insist on us using FMS, and our LA supply both as a single package. NIGHTMARE

One option, albeit not a trivial one, is to academise. DfE still have ambitions to move schools that way, so schools should look to join a MAT of there choosing rather than end up in one of the LA MAT academies DfE have talked about which may leave you in the same situation. My source wasn't this article, but it touches on most of this topic.

 

https://schoolsweek.co.uk/dfe-plans-first-step-in-academy-revolution/

 

I guess it's probably best to switch to another thread for a more in depth discussion about academies, but some LA's insistence on SIMS/FMS is not helping the 3 year contract topic.

[vikpaw]

Our LA are still charging us for SIMS licences (discounted) even though we no longer use SIMS, as they insist on us using FMS, and our LA supply both as a single package. NIGHTMARE

 

This could be jumping from pan to fire 🔥 but could you opt to go direct for just FMS? Would that make it cheaper than the discounted LA rate?

[PotNoodleTech]

Our LA are still charging us for SIMS licences (discounted) even though we no longer use SIMS, as they insist on us using FMS, and our LA supply both as a single package. NIGHTMARE

 

FYI it's up to the school what finance software it uses - historically schools have often just used what the LEA supplied as LEAS wanted to streamline their own data in/out workoad by having the same finance software in every school, but actually - times have changed and your school is now being forced to pay thousands (or tens of thousands) extra just so the LEA can make their own jobs easier - I would suggest you move to whatrever MIS and Finance software is modern and fit for purpose for the school and the LEA can just deal with the import/exports you send them.

 

They won't like it! But then most LEAs are suffering with corporate metathesiophobia so I'm past caring whether they "like it" or not.....

[Ditto]

@PotNoodleTech - you definitely win the Susie Dent word of day award