Replacing Mac's - Running out of options!

[DrBeaker]

We're in this exact same boat. At some point, maybe next financial year we will replace these with PCs. Its just too costly to replace Music and the Mac server - all are old and outdated.

 

Ever since we replaced our other Art/Media Macs with PCs, we get very little complaints and the staff are just happy with something fast/reliable. Back in the day we had a ton of issues but that had nothing to do with Microsoft Vs Apple but more like funding being spent in the wrong areas of our system - I could go on but that's all in other Apple/M$ threads.

We have a few Macs that are getting on in age.

 

One of the biggest issues is SIMS access. They have to access it via RDS. Then we have supply teachers who have a computer login, have SIMS access, but won't have access to SIMs on RDS - so can't take a register.

With a Windows device that problem is eliminated. For a lower cost.

 

From a cost view I can't see how they can be justified in a school nowadays.

 

We've had other places we removed the Macs and replaced them with Windows AIOs, most problems reported as a result of using the Macs went away.

Teachers using the Macs in classrooms have told me they prefer using a Windows PC.

The other side is students and affordability of the Mac devices versus a Windows device.

[paulkerton]

One of the biggest issues is SIMS access. They have to access it via RDS. Then we have supply teachers who have a computer login, have SIMS access, but won't have access to SIMs on RDS - so can't take a register.

With a Windows device that problem is eliminated. For a lower cost.

 

I can think of a better way to eliminate SIMS access problems that would let people take a register on any device they came across and at a lower cost than SIMS!

[DrBeaker]

I can think of a better way to eliminate SIMS access problems that would let people take a register on any device they came across and at a lower cost than SIMS!

What's that out of interest then? [emoji848]

[paulkerton]

What's that out of interest then? [emoji848]

Going to a modern web-based MIS solution that isn't stuck with a Windows client as the only way to access it. Otherwise, you're just letting SIMS be a bottle neck for progression.

 

You could also use the HTML5 Remote Desktop settings in Server 2016 and above and do it that way.

Edited July 30, 2020 by paulkerton

[Andy2789]

I totally agree with everything said above, the affordability for students is a huge issue. We have Remote Access so during Covid students have simply continued working via our system, but of course those subjects working from the Mac Network (Music) are suddenly at a huge disadvantage.

 

We have discussed moving to Windows based devices, and have found alternatives so this is something that could be done. For me, I am just exploring all options to see what options are out there and what others have done. As I have said rightly or wrongly (mainly wrongly!) peoples views on a room full of Macs or a room full of PC's are the Macs are better. All part of the 'designer' status Apple have made for themselves, but this has of course as said driven costs to being completely unaffordable. The Music department are fully supportive, so it's not an awful situation.

 

We can't afford new, that is clear, so we will look at refurb and also will continue the conversation about moving to Windows. Sad, as of course this is another string to the bow of my Team being able to managed Windows and Apple systems. I also have to look at giving students the best possible experience and curriculum offering.

 

Sadly there is no perfect solution, I keep hoping a school somewhere drops subjects due to Covid and have lots of Mac's going spare! (the dream is yet to become reality!)

[DrBeaker]

Going to a modern web-based MIS solution that isn't stuck with a Windows client as the only way to access it. Otherwise, you're just letting SIMS be a bottle neck for progression.

 

You could also use the HTML5 Remote Desktop settings in Server 2016 and above and do it that way.

True and valid points.

 

But... above my pay grade to decide that to be honest.

 

I've still got a lot of stuff to fix here and that RDS/SIMS/Mac thing was just one of them I inherited, but never made much sense to me. Login to the network, to go outside the network, to come back into the network. Doesn't make sense.

[DrBeaker]

I totally agree with everything said above, the affordability for students is a huge issue. We have Remote Access so during Covid students have simply continued working via our system, but of course those subjects working from the Mac Network (Music) are suddenly at a huge disadvantage.

 

We have discussed moving to Windows based devices, and have found alternatives so this is something that could be done. For me, I am just exploring all options to see what options are out there and what others have done. As I have said rightly or wrongly (mainly wrongly!) peoples views on a room full of Macs or a room full of PC's are the Macs are better. All part of the 'designer' status Apple have made for themselves, but this has of course as said driven costs to being completely unaffordable. The Music department are fully supportive, so it's not an awful situation.

 

We can't afford new, that is clear, so we will look at refurb and also will continue the conversation about moving to Windows. Sad, as of course this is another string to the bow of my Team being able to managed Windows and Apple systems. I also have to look at giving students the best possible experience and curriculum offering.

 

Sadly there is no perfect solution, I keep hoping a school somewhere drops subjects due to Covid and have lots of Mac's going spare! (the dream is yet to become reality!)

Interesting angle....the more expensive devices in a remote access situation have reduced functionality. That's the kicker right there surely?

[Andy2789]

Interesting angle....the more expensive devices in a remote access situation have reduced functionality. That's the kicker right there surely?

 

Totally! I mean students / Staff with Mac's can still access their Windows System remotely. But the Mac Network though links to our domain, the files are on the Mac Network SAN as all the files (or most) relate to the specialist software on the Mac's so we keep them deliberately seperate.

[ICTDirect_Dave]

Drop me an email if you get to the point of doing a feasibility study into moving music over to Windows.

 

I won't try to sell you stuff (unless you ask), but I'd be more than happy to go over pros and cons of modern music tech software/hardware

[DrBeaker]

Drop me an email if you get to the point of doing a feasibility study into moving music over to Windows.

 

I won't try to sell you stuff (unless you ask), but I'd be more than happy to go over pros and cons of modern music tech software/hardware

We've replaced our old RM PCs in our music IT suite with some Dell i5 4th gens, 8GB and upgraded with an SSD. Taken from other locations on the site/refurbs.

 

Then for a new music person to come in and say "oh I'd like a suite of Macs in here". After all our hard work testing them and getting them ready. [emoji34]

 

So yeah I'd be interested in the opinion of someone else that these Windows PCs can do anything a Mac can do and for cheaper. Because I can see that request coming and need some figures to give them that the TCO is higher.

[Norphy]

Then for a new music person to come in and say "oh I'd like a suite of Macs in here". After all our hard work testing them and getting them ready. [emoji34]

 

"Sure, who would you like to make redundant so that we can afford to pay for them?"

[LeMarchand]

"Sure, who would you like to make redundant so that we can afford to pay for them?"

 

You probably don't want to be giving people ideas!

[Norphy]

You probably don't want to be giving people ideas!

 

Good point, well made...

[paulkerton]

Then for a new music person to come in and say "oh I'd like a suite of Macs in here". After all our hard work testing them and getting them ready. [emoji34]

 

Easily solved : "How many Macs can you afford from your budget this year?"

[DrBeaker]

Easily solved : "How many Macs can you afford from your budget this year?"

 

Honestly this is something I do struggle with.

 

Getting people to listen to the rationale. I've brought books on communication and presenting, given them PowerPoints, Excel facts and figures on things and I still struggle to get the point across. Sometimes I get a response, a lot of times I don't. Sometimes I wonder if it's me.

[paulkerton]

Getting people to listen to the rationale. I've brought books on communication and presenting, given them PowerPoints, Excel facts and figures on things and I still struggle to get the point across. Sometimes I get a response, a lot of times I don't. Sometimes I wonder if it's me.

 

No, it's very much them. If they want a specialist piece of equipment, then try the meet half way.

 

These PC's cost £500 per device all in and would come from the central budget, these Macs cost £1200.

If you can find the £700 per device difference, you can have Macs.

 

It really should be that simple!

[LeMarchand]

Honestly this is something I do struggle with.

 

Getting people to listen to the rationale. I've brought books on communication and presenting, given them PowerPoints, Excel facts and figures on things and I still struggle to get the point across. Sometimes I get a response, a lot of times I don't. Sometimes I wonder if it's me.

 

Not just you. Once another school (that probably got the kit at a huge discount if not free) says something about "improved outcomes in engagement/attainment/bdj*" then very little will put them off the idea. How long did the Flip cameras or DSes get used for in KS1/2 schools?

 

At least posting that story about the Zoom-bombing using CP put my lot off Zoom.

 

*buzzword du jour.

[Jcx500]

I’m guessing these macs are for music ? Also logic or GarageBand are being used? I use studio one on windows it is very Similar to logic / garage , I’ve used most Daws and I’ve gotta say studio one is great !

 

Edit: Grammer

[dhicks]

online solutions like Soundtrap

 

One option might be to install ChromeOS on the old Macs - Cloud Ready should install okay, and you get to carry on using your nice Mac hardware. Soundtrap has grown in to a very capable-looking solution, complete with features such as Autotune and so on. The great part is that it should work from pretty much any computer with a browser, and pupils can use it at home. If you're going to spend money anywhere (as ICT Direct point out), spend it on some USB audio interfaces, mics and headphones. You can even get USB Midi keyboards (about £50) that can work with APIs available in the browser, so you don't even need to get a separate Midi interface.

[Disease]

This is the exact reason why I never recommend Macs, overpriced Tat that has a really poor TCO.

 

A lot of teachers only think about shiny shiny and not the practicalities. Our Music Head of Department wanted Macs and when I aksed her why she wanted Macs she didn't really know but her DJ friend recommended them as you can only really do music on a Mac, together with the Head we shut that little waste of expenditure down.

Edited July 31, 2020 by Disease

[Zammo]

True and valid points.

 

But... above my pay grade to decide that to be honest.

 

I've still got a lot of stuff to fix here and that RDS/SIMS/Mac thing was just one of them I inherited, but never made much sense to me. Login to the network, to go outside the network, to come back into the network. Doesn't make sense.

 

How have you got RDS set up? Why does it go outside of the network?

[Disease]

How have you got RDS set up? Why does it go outside of the network?

 

Maybe it's a fudge to get Windows apps like Sims on the Mac, create a sims app on a windows RDS accessed through Safari although you could do that without having to go outside the network.?

[SamanthaD]

"Sure, who would you like to make redundant so that we can afford to pay for them?"

Should be more "And you're funding the extra technician we'll need to support this new, specialist service that doesn't exist anywhere else in the school?"

 

Don't forget to add on the cost of a new Mac Pro to run as a server for the Mac network and handle software licensing etc...

[Brimstone]

I feel your pain yes Macs being used by music and other creative students in schools really can impact on budgets

 

 

This kind of thread comes up every six months or so and I say the same thing every time.

Teaching music does not require macs. In fact it actively under prepares students for the real world where the majority of systems in studios and edit suites are windows-based.

Some Macs to teach Logic Pro are fine, but you can save more money and offer a better range of software using Windows machines and the less said about Garageband the better

 

 

As someone with over 30 years of experience and hundreds of individual music producers, musicians, technicians and writers I can say catagorically Windows is NOT the majority, many studios across the UK and the US do offer both platforms. A studio I've worked with have won this award this year, they are macOS based.

 

The Church Studios – Crouch End, London

Edited August 14, 2020 by elsiegee40
Insult edited out

[paulkerton]

As someone with over 30 years of experience and hundreds of individual music producers, musicians, technicians and writers I can say catagorically Windows is NOT the majority, many studios across the UK and the US do offer both platforms. A studio I've worked with have won this award this year, they are macOS based.

And I'll repeat for the millionth time, schools are not training centres for Logic, or Office or any one particular tool. Schools are here to teach transferrable skills across tools and applications. If Logic Pro is so important to the industry, the industry (and in turn Apple) needs to fund education through significant discounts and non-profit sales in order to get that taught.

 

Otherwise, people are going to turn to other tools, quite rightly.

 

And anyway, the biggest DAWs in the industry are Pro Tools and Ableton and they're cross platform. You don't need that level of power anywhere near 11-16 Education.

Perhaps at A-Level? Certainly not for GCSE.

Edited August 14, 2020 by elsiegee40