CC3 boot disk on USB drive?

[reggiep]

Hi All,

It's my first half term in A CC3 school and I want to rebuild many, many machines so I want to speed up the process by making some of my spare USB memory sticks into build disks.

 

however they always seem to crash out looking for the A: drive at some point or other.

 

Is it possible to make a build disk with a standard USB mem stick that hasn't been bought with an A: drive on it?

 

Cheers

[SYNACK]

This thread should help:

http://www.edugeek.net/forums/windows/18836-creat-bootable-usb-ghost-drive.html

[reggiep]

Thanks, but that's not what I want!

 

I used to do that when I used ghost at my last school BUT CC3 won't work like that as it seems to want the USB drive to be drive a:

 

I was wondering if anyone had managed to bypass this limitation at any other CC3 school?

 

Cheers

[SYNACK]

You just create a system disk formated partition on the USB key with the hp USB key tool, use you existing CC3 disk as the source for the boot files then copy the rest of the files off the gloppy onto the USB key.

 

When booted from this should show up as a: depending on your system bios. If a: is 100% critical then you could simply burn an image of the CC3 disk onto a CD and as it emulates a FDD it will show up as a. That is if you have CD drives.

[Michael]

Use a bootable CD method, it'll work with any machine this way. Most machines still don't support booting off a USB device.

[reggiep]

Nope, The bootable CD won't work either as during the CC3 build data is sent back to the floppy!

 

It is frustrating as I have one usb drive that has floppy drive emulation and about 20 that don't!

[cookie_monster]

RM don't still insist on floppy drives so they??? Good greif

[reggiep]

Oh yes they do!

 

I'm making a list of all my frustrations in my little black book. When It comes time to upgrade the system next year I'll look at it before I decide to upgrade to CC4!

[Jona]

I assume you've seen: How to create and use a bootable USB memory stick as a floppy drive replacement ? (beware window resizing if you click the link)

 

I guess "A bootable USB memory stick that can emulate a USB-ZIP or USB-FDD device." Is the crucial line.

[reggiep]

@Jona

 

I have seen it, but thanks for looking!

 

I'm still playing with the config files at the moment.

[TheScarfedOne]

When I was looking at moving away from CC3 last year, I wrote a set of scripts to format disk, and build XP based on a series of unattend files, then run the CC3 smart client routine - running from USB. This worked well - but it depends whether you want the restore option. As this isnt strictly a CC3 build disk - the restore partition stuff is never completed. I will see if I can dig out the files for you if interested. PM me if you want more info.

[kmount]

Its not that difficult to make a usb bootable one (we're using 5 at the moment rebuilding a room). - We're using "Floppy Imager".

 

Make sure your disks have "Boot Manager" so in future you can rebuild them locally without the need for a disk.

[reggiep]

Did you move away from CC3 in the end?

[sparkeh]

Its dead easy to make a CC3 USB boot disk.

 

Using one at this very moment. If your stick is formatted as USB-ZIP then just drag the CC3 build files over. Job done.

[webman]

I use the HP tool for our USB drives - works fine.

 

To make the whole process quicker I use Virtual Floppy Disk to emulate a floppy drive - also handy to write different build disks to different images. I found the HP tool won't read VFD images properly but if you mount the image in VFD you just select A: as the source in the HP tool.

 

The only gotcha is that the RM build disk creator will only write to A:, so if using VFD you will need to disable/change the letter of your physical floppy drive.

[cooper]

I use a usb stick with a floppy drive switch nice and easy, they only cost about £10.

 

Cooper

[s69]

RM sell the Netac NTU207/U208 1GB stick which has a switch on the side.

In the 'FDD' position I have a CC3 station build disk, and in the other I have a CC4 WinPE build CD image, so I can boot either.

To make a bootable CC4 USB disk, use the RMPARTUSB and RMBOOTSECT tools - see DWN1179666 on rm support site.

HTH

[Slewis]

I've also been working on making a regular USB Pendrive version of the CC3 RM Boot Disk, I've tried various methods, all of which until now, have fallen down. But, I think, I have at last, finally got it cracked.

 

There may well be other ways of doing this, this is just the first one I've tried that has worked, feel free to investigate, and please post your findings back here.

 

Objective: Bootable USB-HDD Pendrive recognised as A: Drive - Without Paying a Penny.

 

Tested with:

MS-DOS Startup Disk

Laptop with BIOS Option "USB RMD-FDD"

Software Used:

Trial-Version UltraISO 9.3 (setup attached)

Either Private Drive Image XML (Setup attached)

or CloneZilla (too big to attach, see Addendum Step 2 at the bottom of this post for link.)

or USB Image Tool(Setup attached)

 

 

The Magic Trick:

 

Install Trial-version UltraISO 9.3

** Hopefully the original poster will be cheered to know this functionality only existed since version 9.2 - released just 2days before his post. (26/05/08)

 

Insert RM Boot Disk (Or any other boot disk)

Insert USB Flash Drive (or wait until later if preferred)

 

Start Trial-Version UltraISO 9.3

Click Bootable (menu)

Click "Make Floppy Image..."

Make sure it's looking at the correct Drive (A or B)

Take note of the directory the image is saved to.

Click "Ok"

Click "Close"

Click "File" (menu)

Click "Open"

You should find yourself in the directory the Floppy Image was saved to, if not, navigate there.

Select the Saved "Boot.ima" or whatever you choose to name the Floppy Image.

Click "Open" to open the Floppy Image.

>>> Optional: <<<

Depending on the size of your pendrive you can:

Press "[color="Blue"]F9[/color]" and resize the image upto 240MB or higher, (see note under Format)
Click "[color="blue"]Ok[/color]"

>>> End Optional <<<

 

Click the box with three dots besides empty "Output Filename" and navigate to the folder you want to save in, then type a name, I chose a generic name: "Boot2.ima" but choose whatever name you like.

 

>>> Warning: The one time I tried to overwrite the original with the new version the image was corrupted and wouldn't boot <<<

 

Click "Ok"

 

>>> USB Flash Drive MUST be inserted from this point <<<

 

Click "Bootable" (menu)

Click "Write Disk Image..."

Select your Pendrive (BEWARE: It likes to default to the second hard drive)

Optionally click Verify

Click "Format"

 

>>> Warning: This will erase all files on the Pendrive. <<<

 

>>> Note: Whilst in Format see what size your pendrive is as FAT, and bear in mind that you can increase the size of your image to this (Mine was 953MB in FAT, so I increased the image size again to 950MB). <<<

Type a Volume label if you desire
I left the File System as FAT
I also left the Default Allocation Size
And left Quick Format ticked 
Click "[color="Blue"]Start[/color]"
Click "[color="blue"]Ok[/color]" to the Warning
Click "[color="blue"]Ok[/color]" to the Confirmation
Click "[color="blue"]Close[/color]" when it's completed

Change "Write Method" to "USB-ZIP" not "USB-ZIP+" (didn't try USB-ZIP+, may work, may not)

Click "Xpress Boot"

Choose "[color="blue"]Xpress Write[/color]"
Click "[color="blue"]Yes[/color]" to the Confirmation

 

And... Ta-da! Go test your new RM Floppy-Pendrive.

 

Now to update it to a newer RM Boot Floppy (perhaps with new drivers etc), simply copy all of the data files from your new Build Manager created RM Boot Floppy onto this pendrive, overwriting everything you like, you probably need to make sure you don't overwrite Command.com, IO.SYS and MSDOS.SYS. (There's a hidden pointer on the boot sector that points to them so the machine can find them before it knows how to read a directory. Copying over them might or might not shift the start position, leaving those pointers dangling and your pendrive non-bootable.)

 

You should note, it is only £16.34 to licence UltraISO, if you want to save time making RM Boot Pendrives, this may well be worth it for you... it really is a shame they never thought to list this usage as one of the utility's "main features", I'm sure RM would have loved to stick a limiting front-end on it software and call it RMUltraISO.

 

Addendum:

 

Now about the doing it for free...

 

Step 1: Uninstall Trial-Version of UltraISO 9.3... to avoid paying for licence, having tried it and found it of little use from this point forwards.

 

Step 2: ... Call me silly, but my first thought was to find some free software to burn .img images to USB-HDD like Linux's dd (also has a Windows port). However, it's complicated to use and ran for over an hour with no indication of progress, so I gave up on it.

It then occured to me that I didn't need to work with their silly .ima & .img files at all, now that we have a Floppy USB-HDD, we can create an image of it with any program we want!

 

The utilities that seem best suited are the:

Free for Private Use (Commercial licence costs $100), Windows based: Drive Image XML available from:

DriveImage XML Backup Software

or

Free entirely, Open-source Linux Based CloneZilla available from:

Clonezilla

Or

Free entirely, USB Image Tool found on:

 

I won't go into how to use these utilities as they're well documented/fairly self explanatory.

 

I don't know the legalities of using DriveXML in a school, as we're not companies & especially for the purposes of backing up your own private pendrive, but they say Organizations also have to buy the Commercial license?. So, whatever.

 

CloneZilla is def. free, I'd recommend downloading a burning the live CD for ease. (Boots straight off the CD, no need for installation).

 

Make an image of your RM Floppy-Pendrive using your preferred free software and restore it to whichever Pendrives you like.

 

Obviously the actual RM files can be changed on the fly as this remains a writable USB Pendrive throughout. Sadly their batch files are somewhat of a Maze to work through however :-/

 

Feel free to post any questions/comments, I'll do my best to field them.

 

SLewis

dixmlsetup.zip

uiso9_pe.zip

USB Image Tool.zip

Edited November 4, 2008 by Slewis
Added USB Image Tool

[s69]

Most USB flash memory drives are USB-ZIP drives when shipped.

 

They appear as a 'Removable Device' in Windows Explorer. If it appears as a 'Hard Disk' in Windows Explorer then it is a USB-HDD.

 

On some UFDs you can change the 'Removable Media Bit' in the device Identify parameters so that it can appear either as a USB-HDD or a USB-ZIP (non-removable or removable) by changing this bit. Lexar Jumpdrives and RM MiniSafe Pro can do this. You can use the utility BootIt.exe to try to flip this removable media bit. Run it and click on the 'flip removable bit' button - wait for the LED to stop flashing and then remove the UFD and re-insert it. It should now appear in Explorer as the 'other' type.

 

So that is the difference between a USB-ZIP and USB-HDD - BUT BIOSes also have their own rules. Many older BIOSes will not detect a USB-ZIP as a ZIP (floppy) device if the capacity is over 512MB. e.g. MX46 mainboards and Ultralight M5N early RM notebook.

 

USB-FDD devices identify themselves as a 'TEAC floppy drive' and have a capacity of 1.44MB. Many BIOSes will refuse to detect larger devices as a 'floppy drive' unless it has these features.

True floppy disks have no MBR and no partition table. The first sector of the disk is the volume boot sector (the one that loads IO.SYS or KERNEL.SYS depending on the OS present).

 

Next we move onto partitions. Both USB-ZIP and USB-HDD drives have a MBR with boot code and a partition table just like hard disks. A USB-ZIP drive must have only a single partition table entry. The difference is that when the BIOS boots a USB-ZIP drive, it 'should' convert any floppy drive BIOS access calls (actually Int 13h 42h/43h for read/write) by adding the partition offset to the actual sector requested. This means that an OS sees the device as a large floppy disk with Sector 1 (i.e. LBA 0 or Block 0) when accessed, returned as the volume boot sector and not the MBR. i.e. the BIOS lies so that the OS thinks it is on a large floppy disk.

 

For USB-HDD UFDs, these are treated just like any hard disk, with an MBR containing up to four primary partitions and containing up to four primary volumes, one of which can be an extended volume and hence contain many more volumes - just like any hard disk.

 

 

Now we move on to the Volume boot sector. This is the first sector at the start of each volume. It contains the boot code that loads the OS in that volume and the name of the file to load - e.g. IO.SYS, ntldr, bootmgr, kernel.sys, etc.. For best compatibility for UFD DOS booting, this should be formatted as FAT-16, although to boot to WinPE you can format it as FAT-32 or even NTFS.

 

A FAT-16 volume boot sector has two crucial bytes which identify what type of device it is ('floppy' or 'hard disk') to the OS that it will try to boot, these are at offset 15h and 24h. If these are set incorrectly then the OS may not boot correctly or may boot as a hard disk instead of a floppy (C: instead of A: for DOS). For CC3 boot UFDs it needs to boot as A:.

 

DOS can boot as either, but WinPE (CC4) only boots from 'hard disk' volumes.

 

Also, many format programs set the Drive ID byte (24h) to (for example) 81h instead of 80h. This will cause the boot to fail as the OS will try to load boot sectors from drive 2 (81h) and not drive 1 (80h).

 

So, ideally:

 

A UFD which is USB-ZIP, should have an MBR with one active partition. The Drive ID bytes in the volume boot sector should have bytes 15h and 24h set to F0h and 00h respectively.

 

A USB-HDD UFD will have these bytes set to F8h and 80h respectively so the OS thinks it is a hard disk and accesses it as device 80h or the first hard disk.

 

Unfortunately, BIOSes are VERY inconsistent in how they treat UFDs even if correctly formatted.

 

The latest Intel BIOSes allow you to treat a USB-ZIP 'removable' device as either a 'removable' boot device or a 'hard disk' boot device. This determines if the BIOS should 'lie' about accesses to Block 0 (LBA 0) or not, as explained above.

Changing the way that the BIOS treats a UFD in the BIOS settings can cause a device to boot or not boot. Different BIOSes can thus boot or not boot from the same UFD - it is very hit and miss! Setting a BIOS to USB-ZIP may work on one system, and setting it to USB-HDD may work for another system when using the same UFD!

 

This means that one partition and format program for UFDs may work for one system, but will not work for a different system/BIOS.

 

The best chance is to use a true USB-FDD UFD (like the Netac U207/U208) or a USB-ZIP of 512MB or less in size (like RM MiniSafe Pro 512MB or Lexar Jumpdrive 512MB).

 

Several different systems I have tried will not boot from a 1GB RM MiniSafe Pro, but will boot from a 512MB MiniSafe Pro!

 

 

HTH

Edited September 23, 2008 by s69

[s69]

New tool downloadable from RM website.

Use RMPREPUSB to partition, format and make bootable any USB stick. RMPREPUSB

[graywoodford]

Hi

 

We use the netac usb fdd drives with the switch on them, well worth the money!! no hassle whatsoever, just create a build disk on them from the server and then away you go, very quick compared to usb floppy drives we used previous and does make life loads easier.

 

We have tried in the past to use the hp tool to create a bootable usb disk and it did work (not as easily as the netac drives) but we found with these the data would corrupt after using the drive 3 or 4 times so you would have to rebuild again where as with the netacs we rebuilt the entire school last term (450 computers on cc3) and did not have a usb stick corrupt once.

 

I advise to spend a little bit of cash on the rm website and buy some, they are about £13 each at the moment, just buy ten and away you go.

 

Just trying the rm utility now to see how it goes.

[Stuarte]

just as an additional note: if you use HP hardware (relatively new) it is not possible to get them to build from CC3 build disk on USB (no matter what you do, even HP utility). But netacs work absolutely perfectly (CC3 or otherwise). It's worth buying a couple.

Trust me, I spent far too much of my life trying to get standard USBs to boot with new HPs!!!

 

expect someone will now prove me wrong......

 

Cheers!

[sparkeh]

netacs work absolutely perfectly (CC3 or otherwise). It's worth buying a couple.

 

Agreed! I now use Nectac USB disks with FDD emulation and they are worth their weight in gold.

[Lyptherion]

We use Netac OnlyDisk's here with the unattended RM installation files sooo useful can rebuild a full room in about 10 minuets