Suggestions and opinions on new Visitor management system

[mwnci]

We use SwipedOn across our MAT. Staff are able to roam between sites. A fraction of the price of Inventory.

[TechMonkey]

A fraction of the price of Inventory.

 

Does it integrate with any MIS?

[FishCustard]

We use EntrySign, and are fairly happy after some initial bits of weirdness.

 

Fair warning, they'll try to get you to install the SQL Server on the sign-in appliance itself (which is in our case an Intel m3 all-in-one). Needless to say that's a bad idea, spin up a VM or use an existing SQL Server instance and create a new database for it.

 

The AD integration they provide is also pants - doesn't pull in ID card tokens correctly, decides to duplicate users on a whim - so I wrote my own PowerShell script that runs every few minutes to push data from AD to the EntrySign database. Happy to provide said script if you want, but obviously if it goes haywire and eats your lunch don't blame me or the manufacturers of the system! That said it's been working a treat for us - no more manual double entry of everything.

 

Cheaper than Inventry and we know its oddities now, so it works well.

[dapaulio]

Ours was all decided by others, admin etc, before I started this role. I only found out about it when the Inventry engineer turned up on the day. I can ask but I don't expect a reply to be honest.

 

That’s my position at the moment but Iv been here for a while. Didn’t know they were even considering one as years ago I wrote my own for them but decided to pull support on it as I wasn’t sure whether it was GDPR compliant.

 

First I knew was an email the last week saying would I mind sitting in on the Egan Reid meet.

[rogerdnixon]

I just put a spare touch screen Chromebook into kiosk mode and made our own with a Google Form and a bit of Sheets back end stuff - https://wpsit.blogspot.com/2019/01/simple-sign-in-system.html - does the job and costs nothing if you have the kit. Might not do all the things the pay for solutions do - but its fine and we have zero budget to spend on fancy things.

[DrBeaker]

I just put a spare touch screen Chromebook into kiosk mode and made our own with a Google Form and a bit of Sheets back end stuff - https://wpsit.blogspot.com/2019/01/simple-sign-in-system.html - does the job and costs nothing if you have the kit. Might not do all the things the pay for solutions do - but its fine and we have zero budget to spend on fancy things.

 

This is symptomatic of the "Let's fix EVERYTHING with IT" kind of mindset though in schools. Not everything requires an IT solution to a problem. E.g. Sometimes it just needs the admin team to do their actual job of signing people in and out.

[MYK-IT]

 

Inventry are not perfect, I think some of there components need a real good rewrite and update. Their restarting module will not work unless it is a full admin, which is fine if it is a standalone PC, but if it is on the domain no way that is going to happen. That is how we got around the Virus and backup, added it to our domain, but that did confuse them a bit as suddenly they had to deal with GPOs and permissions. I would much prefer a proper cloud solution, but c'est la vie. I almost had a total barney with one of their support people as they would not deal with the issue, just kept telling me to restart the PC and could not understand that a program want full admin rights would not run without someone logging in with credentials (UAC). So in the end I rolled my own solution that worked. Investigating further it looks like they just need to change a flag in their coding but they could not understand this. That is the only issue I have had with support, other times they have been really quick, helpful and on it.

 

 

This is useful to know, as I noted that the all-in-pc (with camera, bar-code & card reader modules) would basically be running and storing literally everything! And wondered how it would connect to the network / domain, securely, and in a way that it could be backed up etc. If we went ahead with this solution, we'd need it networked as card readers are required elsewhere on the premises too.

[CHiLL]

We've been asked by the head to look into a replacement door system that can do both staff and visitors. It appears that Inventory and EntrySign cannot do that at present, at least not that matches our scenario.

 

Our requirements:

 

• 11 doors (mixture of perimeter and internal doors, with 2x perimeter doors recording staff swipes in and out for attendance)
  
• Reads Mifare cards
  
• Separate device in reception for visitors to sign in and print their badges
  
• Able to print an evacuation list that shows both staff and visitors
  

The biggest issue we're running into is that our current mag-locks use Mifare cards and would need entirely replacing for the likes of Inventroy and EntrySign. We also have two perimeter doors that staff use to sign in and out of, we want those to log the swipes, rather than have the staff swipe through the door and then have to go out of their way to reception to swipe again on the machine there.

Edited June 7, 2019 by CHiLL

[TechMonkey]

This is useful to know, as I noted that the all-in-pc (with camera, bar-code & card reader modules) would basically be running and storing literally everything! And wondered how it would connect to the network / domain, securely, and in a way that it could be backed up etc. If we went ahead with this solution, we'd need it networked as card readers are required elsewhere on the premises too.

 

The card readers do not link into anything else. You have to register the cards with the system, which is a very easy process, it is not authenticating or checking against anything external. We do back up across the network though, to one of our NAS boxes.

[mdrabble]

We've been asked by the head to look into a replacement door system that can do both staff and visitors. It appears that Inventory and EntrySign cannot do that at present, at least not that matches our scenario.

 

Our requirements:

 

• 11 doors (mixture of perimeter and internal doors, with 2x perimeter doors recording staff swipes in and out for attendance)
  
• Reads Mifare cards
  
• Separate device in reception for visitors to sign in and print their badges
  
• Able to print an evacuation list that shows both staff and visitors
  

 

 

SwipedOn looks interesting, so we'll take a look into them.

 

Thought Entrysign can use Paxton Net2 systems as part of the automatic signing in - (Dont have Net2 so cannot confirm - but was told we could if we had it but they advised against it as not all people will swipe in if they follow someone else in through the door)

[CHiLL]

Thought Entrysign can use Paxton Net2 systems as part of the automatic signing in - (Dont have Net2 so cannot confirm - but was told we could if we had it but they advised against it as not all people will swipe in if they follow someone else in through the door)

We've been told by our Inventory sales guy that there is no system on the market that can let you through the door and also record your attendance for the evacuation list. Staff would have to first swipe through the perimeter door to get on-site and then swipe on another device ('quick scan' I think he called it) to register their attendance. He did mention that Paxton are working on a solution, but there's no timescale at present.

 

The following through has been an issue in the past, but management came down hard on that a couple of years ago and chase those are appear as absent on the system. People soon get the message.

Edited June 7, 2019 by CHiLL

[mavhc]

So no one who sells hardware has good software. Surprise! Not that hard for auto signing in staff, trigger on the database to update the other database, how is this taking anyone who can do databases more than 1 day?

[robyholmes]

Paxton can do an attendance roll call in event of a fire but can't cover two people walking through a door at once. Turn stalls are the only way then. Also want about a staff member outside the building? Are they registered or not?

So by using a 'tag in' reader you get a better list of who's 'in' and who isn't.

[robk]

We've been told by our Inventory sales guy that there is no system on the market that can let you through the door and also record your attendance for the evacuation list. Staff would have to first swipe through the perimeter door to get on-site and then swipe on another device ('quick scan' I think he called it) to register their attendance. He did mention that Paxton are working on a solution, but there's no timescale at present.

 

The following through has been an issue in the past, but management came down hard on that a couple of years ago and chase those are appear as absent on the system. People soon get the message.

Erm... I believe Inventry has just released an integration product with Paxton Net 2 that does this, but it's VERY new.

 

Might be worth confirming that with them again.

[mavhc]

Paxton can do an attendance roll call in event of a fire but can't cover two people walking through a door at once. Turn stalls are the only way then. Also want about a staff member outside the building? Are they registered or not?

So by using a 'tag in' reader you get a better list of who's 'in' and who isn't.

 

If you can forget to beep your fob on a door entrance when you follow someone else in you're going to forget to beep in or out more often.

 

Guess we need to define use cases.

 

Are they clocking in and out? Is it for a fire register? What should be on a fire register when people are outside the building? Can you put fob readers on the external site gates?

[DrBeaker]

If you can forget to beep your fob on a door entrance when you follow someone else in you're going to forget to beep in or out more often.

 

Guess we need to define use cases.

 

Are they clocking in and out? Is it for a fire register? What should be on a fire register when people are outside the building? Can you put fob readers on the external site gates?

 

Is this a case though again perhaps, of management trying to use IT to solve an issue - when it's a non-technical issue? This seems like more of a management/line-management sort of problem if people aren't doing what they are told to do.

Solving non-technical issues with technical solutions only 1) enables humans to continue to be lazy 2) puts IT in a bad light (even thought it wasn't us who put these systems in place)

Edited June 8, 2019 by DrBeaker

[mukz]

Erm... I believe Inventry has just released an integration product with Paxton Net 2 that does this, but it's VERY new.

 

Might be worth confirming that with them again.

 

It only works using the inventry quick scan readers currently. Kind of silly imho. It should have been designed the other way so that existing paxton readers can sign someone in.

[mavhc]

Is this a case though again perhaps, of management trying to use IT to solve an issue - when it's a non-technical issue? This seems like more of a management/line-management sort of problem if people aren't doing what they are told to do.

Solving non-technical issues with technical solutions only 1) enables humans to continue to be lazy 2) puts IT in a bad light (even thought it wasn't us who put these systems in place)

 

Nothing is a technical issue, technology just makes things more efficient. I can spend £1 million to make it perfect, £0 to change nothing, or somewhere in between if we require the humans to do a bit of the work. Job of tech people is to work out where on that scale to pick.

 

Start with the problem, paper is slow/unreliable. Define the problem exactly (people outside building but still on campus etc). Find a solution that saves the most money.

[DrBeaker]

Nothing is a technical issue, technology just makes things more efficient. I can spend £1 million to make it perfect, £0 to change nothing, or somewhere in between if we require the humans to do a bit of the work. Job of tech people is to work out where on that scale to pick.

 

Start with the problem, paper is slow/unreliable. Define the problem exactly (people outside building but still on campus etc). Find a solution that saves the most money.

 

I see your point and fundamentally I agree....

 

but E.g. if they purchased a sign-in system that uses one type of cards and brought a door access system that uses another type that's incompatible - that's now become a technical problem due to lack of communication and teamwork, poor planning and bad management.

On paper why should IT intervene and fix what would essentially be a social/business/management problem? From my experience IT never get the kudos for fixing things that are in reality nothing to do with us and IT not turning round and saying it was crap management that caused the problem in the first place people. Which is IMHO why in IT people get so cynical.

 

E.g. with classroom vandalism - none of that is a technical issue, but it becomes our problem because management are either unable or unwilling to investigate the issues and root causes behind it (bad classroom management)

[mavhc]

I see your point and fundamentally I agree....

 

but E.g. if they purchased a sign-in system that uses one type of cards and brought a door access system that uses another type that's incompatible - that's now become a technical problem due to lack of communication and teamwork, poor planning and bad management.

On paper why should IT intervene and fix what would essentially be a social/business/management problem? From my experience IT never get the kudos for fixing things that are in reality nothing to do with us and IT not turning round and saying it was crap management that caused the problem in the first place people. Which is IMHO why in IT people get so cynical.

 

E.g. with classroom vandalism - none of that is a technical issue, but it becomes our problem because management are either unable or unwilling to investigate the issues and root causes behind it (bad classroom management)

 

People are idiots, can't fix that. Can profit from it though. "We'll need a larger budget to fix your incompetence, or make sure we're in charge of buying these systems in the first place"

 

"Nothing to do with us" sounds like IT is apart from the rest of the organisation. Be more honest, explain whose fault it is, and how to fix it next time, by putting me in charge. If you sit there saying nothing nothing will change. If you say something nothing will change, but you'll have lots of "I told you so" emails to frame and put on the door they have to wait at when they come begging for help.

 

In the end damage to equipment is a budget problem, if the school want to do nothing about it that's their issue. Could spend the teacher's time, but they cost more per hour. Make sure it's well known who was supposed to be in charge when each piece of damage occurred. "Ah yes, your computer doesn't work because Mr X's class broke it, maybe you can complain to him". And a spreadsheet emailed to everyone ranking the top worst performers.

[TechMonkey]

It only works using the inventry quick scan readers currently. Kind of silly imho. It should have been designed the other way so that existing paxton readers can sign someone in.

 

I think what is being talked about is a brand new thing, literally started to be released to early teasters last week. I've not got full details yet but my concern is that it is licensed per door rather than just being a link. I'm not sure if this is a Paxton limitation or a money extraction exercise. I will hopefully be testing this soon so if there is a desire I can try and write up a quick review. We were looking at the Inventry hardware but we have so many entry points that cost spiralled rapidly.

 

As for tailgating, someone entering on the previous person's swipe, barring turnstiles there is no measure to prevent that but some systems have a setting that can prevent a user swiping out if they haven't swiped in. Obviously this only works if you have card readers on both sides of the door rather than a door release but can focus people's minds wonderfully. Otherwise it is a wetware issue and management need to take control.

[DrBeaker]

I think what is being talked about is a brand new thing, literally started to be released to early teasters last week. I've not got full details yet but my concern is that it is licensed per door rather than just being a link. I'm not sure if this is a Paxton limitation or a money extraction exercise. I will hopefully be testing this soon so if there is a desire I can try and write up a quick review. We were looking at the Inventry hardware but we have so many entry points that cost spiralled rapidly.

 

As for tailgating, someone entering on the previous person's swipe, barring turnstiles there is no measure to prevent that but some systems have a setting that can prevent a user swiping out if they haven't swiped in. Obviously this only works if you have card readers on both sides of the door rather than a door release but can focus people's minds wonderfully. Otherwise it is a wetware issue and management need to take control.

 

Maybe going off topic slightly - Is this change going to make door access and control come under the remit of IT? Or do you have a site team that will be doing this? Just curious?

[mavhc]

Solutions to people not swiping in: Don't unlock their AD account until they have. Have internal doors on fobs too. Face recognition + lasers. Fines. Playground duty when it rains.

[howartp]

Solutions to people not swiping in: Don't unlock their AD account until they have. Have internal doors on fobs too. Face recognition + lasers. Fines. Playground duty when it rains.

 

Love it!

[TechMonkey]

Maybe going off topic slightly - Is this change going to make door access and control come under the remit of IT? Or do you have a site team that will be doing this? Just curious?

 

It is already blurred so no change. We run Paxton Net2 so it is network based and we often support the Estates team if there is an issue or they are tied up elsewhere, but they are very good about sorting issues themselves. I don't see this as adding anything extra or different. All it means is that the admin team should get an accurate staff list of who is on-site, more accurate fire lists and less faffing or asking if someone should be in today, are still in today or if they ever arrived.