Am i being underpaid???

[cookie_monster]

The top of the scale for a NM in Somerset is 18.5k!

 

That really annoys me, why schools expect to hire 'professionals' for less than they would pay an NQT. It's an insult to even advertise for such a position for less that £22k.

[torledo]

That really annoys me, why schools expect to hire 'professionals' for less than they would pay an NQT. It's an insult to even advertise for such a position for less that £22k.

 

IT pay in general is extremely variable....universities aren't great when it comes to paying experienced IT pros.

 

And there are some roles even in the private sector which ask a lot from candidates including considerable experience and wide breadth of skills that don't pay particularly well....and that's not taking into account the often large number of applicants and arduous interview processes. Makes you wonder sometimes why we bother with being allround sysadmins.

 

Especially when non-technical managers seem to earn a lot for doing very little graft - having lots of tea breaks, replying to emails and talking a lot.

[john]

A network manager should be getting £38k +

 

Junior/ trainee Tech £15k- £18k

Middle Tech £18k - £20k

Tech £20 - £24k

Network Manager £28k+

 

Thats how it works here

As has been said I wish it was that up north!!

 

IT pay in general is extremely variable....universities aren't great when it comes to paying experienced IT pros.

 

And there are some roles even in the private sector which ask a lot from candidates including considerable experience and wide breadth of skills that don't pay particularly well....and that's not taking into account the often large number of applicants and arduous interview processes. Makes you wonder sometimes why we bother with being allround sysadmins.

 

Especially when non-technical managers seem to earn a lot for doing very little graft - having lots of tea breaks, replying to emails and talking a lot.

I 110% agree with you on that one.

 

As for saturated, depends if your meaning good techs then no I wouldn't think so, but cowboys and people who shouldn't be doing the job yes.

[strawberry]

Does anyone think company's and schools can pay what ever the hell they like because the IT industry is saturated?

 

yup, also because there are a lot of it pro's out there who dabble, people who dont really know what they're doing but in the eyes of the employeer are sufficent. In schools cases this means that they dont have to pay a decent amount for a decent person.

 

the fact that nm's earn less than nqt's is disqusting. How can nm's do there job knowing the school think less of them than the bottom of the pile teachers. It's no wonder everyone has at least several teachers who think the nm is there to do exactly what the teacher wants when they want it without question.

[cookie_monster]

IT is always viewed as non profit making so it's always first for the chop and always under review i.e can we cut back or pay less. There is also the image of "IT that's where the money is" so allot of people try to break into the industry and you get allot of people for each job. Companies then get the impression that you're being greedy when there are people out there who will do it for less, they quite often learn the hard way when they hire the wrong person.

 

 

It's no wonder everyone has at least several teachers who think the nm is there to do exactly what the teacher wants when they want it without question

 

That's why you need to let them know that you don't work for them and make sure the first time they pop in and ask you to scan something or perform some menial task they can go jump. (That is if you are a NM not a tec)

Edited April 26, 2008 by cookie_monster

[torledo]

Does anyone think company's and schools can pay what ever the hell they like because the IT industry is saturated?

 

I think that's true in certain areas. Proliferation of MCSE's CCNA's etc....

like john said, doesn't necessarily mean they know what they're doing. For instance in a lot of cases are paper certs or have experience of keeping things ticking over rather than being in major project work.

 

Back in the late 90's getting into IT was the thing to do.....when i was doing many of the IT courses at a local college back in 1998 there were all sorts on the course with me. I recall a roofer being on the course. Today it's the other way around....IT people going on roofing courses.

 

It's no longer the thing to do as a career change, but we are left with the result of a plethora of IT and media degrees, college courses and the demand for NT and win2k people to manage these networks in the early noughties. As you said saturation. Coupled with that there is also the scarcity of good jobs outside of london and the south-east.

 

There are lucrative areas and specialisms....but it's a case of if you go down that route you're sort of putting all you're eggs in one basket. I'd imagine it also gets kinda boring.....but who cares when you're earning that much. It's more and more the case that you've got to be prepared to travel

 

I sometimes wonder if the AS400 was allowed to rule the business world as was the outlook in the 80's we'd have this glut of client server IT pro's. Becuase the thing about AS400 was that it didn't require the manpower of a wintel environment. We'd still have ccna's though. Life without switched ethernet is not worth thinking about.

[torledo]

IT is always viewed as non profit making so it's always first for the chop and always under review i.e can we cut back or pay less. There is also the image of "IT that's where the money is" so allot of people try to break into the industry and you get allot of people for each job. Companies then get the impression that you're being greedy when there are people out there who will do it for less, they quite often learn the hard way when they hire the wrong person.

 

 

 

 

That's why you need to let them know that you don't work for them and make sure the first time they pop in and ask you to scan something or perform some menial task they can go jump. (That is if you are a NM not a tec)

 

 

I think the reason why companies and schools (especially schools) are hiring the wrong people is that those make the hiring decisions don't understand the job.

 

If a NM or IT person is involved in the process and if their recommendations are sought then you reduce the risk of hiring the wrong candidate. Even then it's not a guarantee....there are people in industry applying for jobs in schools who appear to tick the correct boxes but are not capable of dealing with the demands of providing an IT service in a school environment.

 

Hiring for a relatively lowly paid position is always going to be a bit hit and miss. Also, even in well paid postitions people who aren't up to the job have a unique ability to talk themselves into it. Particularly if they have an impressive looking cv and say the things people who can't cut through the bs want to hear.

 

I once applied for a job at a local college....the IT manager explained what the scope of the IT support team was. Help with MS Office or anytthing not related to delivering the IT service was not part of any team members duties.

 

scanning of documents should not be the duty of any IT technician network manager or lowly it tech.

 

The only thing of that nature that i do is printing of A1 documents on our hp printer. I only do that becaus no-one else knows how to do it....and they're very occasional requests. Eventually i'll produce a how-to if it ever gets too much. Other than that, i'm an IT support professional not a graphic designer or mail merge expert. I try and create very clearly defined boundaries. After all there is life after working in education, and i'm hoping my next move won't involve me showing idiot IT users how to turn off that annoying dog in Word 2002.

[cookie_monster]

No i don't think IT is 'easy' to pick up but too many people who don't know the job think that someone who can fix a windows desktop is a computer wizz and at some levels these people will be fine. The problem comes when they start moving into more complicated areas like 'good' network planning, switching, routing, traffic analysis to help you plan network load. Also non techincal aspects like usage policies, tendering and managing contractors or breaking down large technical solutions to make sure you or your school/company don't make the wrong decisions.

 

This is where your roofer come IT bod will fall down. Unfortunatly any money making industry eventually attracts bandits after a while. Heck i have friends who rake it in plastering peoples walls and i' sure with a bit of training i could be a bandit in their field and turn up, charge a half the going rate and do half the job. (and probably make more money :-))

[cookie_monster]

Yes but i think that will change in the long term but IT pay should level out unfortunately i think the number of available jobs in IT will steadily fall.

[torledo]

like plumbers and electricians

 

being a proper electrician or plumber requires having a time-served element. Just becuase someones rewired their mates two bed house, or done a intensive plumbing course doesn't mean they're equipped to operate in that field.

 

Similarly IT needs a time-served element in most cases. You can't suddenly turn up doing network analysis after buying a couple of books and downloading a copy of ethereal....you need that time served element where you get first-hand experience of a live network and the issues different networks throw up, aswell as become familiar with the proper tools in a production environment.

 

In IT there's no such thing as a a required qualification....anyone can setup and administer a server 2003 domain. And you can in theory download a copy of vmware and the eval versions of the software and tools and go through the step-by-steps to accomploish these tasks.

 

Bob's you're uncle....that was a piece of pi$$, now i can take my 'skills' into the real world and make some money.

 

Trouble is where's you're experience of setbacks and unusual behavious on live networks.....or you're experience of describing problems on forums.....and as cookie has said you're experience in getting quotes and procuring IT equipment. That's why being a sysadmin is a job you can't do from you're bedroom or from a long distance training course.

 

programmer or developer, yeah you can go solo on that, but sysadmin...no chance.

 

It is totally different from the 'trades'....things haven't moved on a great deal in the areas of plumbing or electrics in the last 20 years. Whereas, aside from the odd AS/400 humming away in the corner of a datacentre the IT infrastructures are unrecognisable. In most instances there was nothing 20 years ago.

 

You'd have to be a glutton for punishment to want to join the IT bandwgon today as a sysamdin......i would imagine a lot of people who jumped on during the 'hot' period have either jumped off or become disillusioned. As much as i love the variety of the job, i'd love to go through a week without seeing a totally new error message, it's not for everyone, and you sometimes get the feeling you're not in total control of the products youre using. Especially if they're badly written M$ products.

 

You know where you are as a roofer....as an ITprofessional yo don't know whether you're coming or going.

 

Plus nowadays there's more money in being a roofer than an MCSE.

[cookie_monster]

Oh for the crazy 1996 - 97 days of £60k for an NT4 MCSE

[localzuk]

One of the interesting problems the industry is going to have in a few years is that there will be a shortage of truly experienced people, due to nearly all companies now demanding a huge range of skills and wanting X years of experience in that particular field, even for an entry level 'answering the phones' post. ie. there is no way for someone fresh out of uni to get in to the industry.

 

I think, as cookie says, the pay in IT will level over the next few years, but it will level at a good place and the industry will realise its mistakes - well we can hope anyway.

Yep i totally agree with your comments.

 

going a step back a sec...

 

do you think then that people are totally amazed and over whelmed by IT they think anyone who has a qualification or experience setting a network in the bedroom are employable to work in the IT industry? which could contribute towards why the IT industry is saturated, which in turn can have a knock on effect through out?

 

Yep. That explains one of the reasons IT pay in most schools is still so low.

Edited April 26, 2008 by localzuk

[Grommit]

The top of the scale for a NM in Somerset is 18.5k!

 

That is shocking ... a Store Clerk in London gets that... min wage on a 40 hour week is £11k !

[Grommit]

IT pay in general is extremely variable....universities aren't great when it comes to paying experienced IT pros.

 

And there are some roles even in the private sector which ask a lot from candidates including considerable experience and wide breadth of skills that don't pay particularly well....and that's not taking into account the often large number of applicants and arduous interview processes. Makes you wonder sometimes why we bother with being allround sysadmins.

 

Especially when non-technical managers seem to earn a lot for doing very little graft - having lots of tea breaks, replying to emails and talking a lot.

 

The problem is that we are at the Bottom of the IT Field.. we are just support monkeys... the bottom of the barrel... if you want decent money go into Database design or Programming... very very boring but a heck of a lot more money...

[localzuk]

The problem is that we are at the Bottom of the IT Field.. we are just support monkeys... the bottom of the barrel... if you want decent money go into Database design or Programming... very very boring but a heck of a lot more money...

 

Which I don't understand! System administration in an organisation is easily as complex as programming or database design. Look at it this way: you design your hardware infrastructure incorrectly, it will cost as much money as it would to fix a problem with the software.

[torledo]

Which I don't understand! System administration in an organisation is easily as complex as programming or database design. Look at it this way: you design your hardware infrastructure incorrectly, it will cost as much money as it would to fix a problem with the software.

 

Pay as an IT professinal in whatever field depends on both or either of the two following factors....

 

1.) How much a company is willing to invest to support a particular a particular IT functional area.

 

2.) The market rate for the services required. This is determined by the level of technical expertise and availability of skilled people (the old skills gap nugget)

 

A company could invest hundred of thousands in hardware and software that requires quite moderate investment in support staff. Storage Infrastructure for instance.

 

In comparision a company could invest tens of thousands in hardware/software solution that requires significant customization and has high support costs. For example a Siebel CRM system or a Business Objects product.

 

The whole issue of pay varies so much from role to role, company to company, and type of employment.

[cookie_monster]

The problem is that we are at the Bottom of the IT Field.. we are just support monkeys...

 

Yep, at the end of the day the money people hope to buy equipment that supports itself and if they need someone to maintain it they want it cheap, they don't see any money in making sure their IT is working smoothly and managed by professionals. The only time they realise this is bad practice is when things go wrong and all of their staff are sat around not 'working' because their tools aren't 'working'.

Programmers and DBA's however are seen as revenue drivers so they gain more kudos with the upper levels.

[torledo]

Which I don't understand! System administration in an organisation is easily as complex as programming or database design. Look at it this way: you design your hardware infrastructure incorrectly, it will cost as much money as it would to fix a problem with the software.

 

Ask yourself this, in a large company such as cadbury's or coca cola who's going to get paid the most in the following in order highest to lowest....

 

1) The unix sysadmin and his unix bod chums who ensures the big milion dollar unix iron is ticking over.

 

2) The Oracle DBA and his DBA chums who administer the $500,000 Oracle implementation, who incidentally rely on the unix guys to allocate processors, memory and storage on the big iron for they're database(s)

 

3) Or the SAP admins who administer the SAP ERP installation and rely on the oracle DBA's to create and maintain for them the database(s) crucial to operation of the SAP system. We don't know how much the SAP system costs 'cos they don't tell anyone. But let's say SAP throw in a sweetener to win the business and license the product at $250,000

and again it resides in a partition or two on the big iron.

 

 

Theres no surprises who's going to get paid the most.....the SAP guys.

Followed by the Oracle guys,

Followed by the poor unix guys.

 

So even though the unix guys are at the root (sorry!!) of the infrastructure and to whom everyone relies.....the oracle guys, the sap guys, the siebel guys,...the unix guys are paid the least.

 

If we ddid a bit further digging we'd see that while the unix iron cost the most, the support costs will be the lowest....the oracle licensing was cheaper than the unix iron but the support costs are higher..,,,was sap licensing really the cheapest - why not, it's just an application server with a few modules written in java (simplified explanation).

 

But one things for sure it's support costs are by far the highest of the three.

 

II dont know what my point is.....but it's a somewhat strange answer in regards to the complexity vs pay issue. What i'm saying is at the end of the day it's all about TCO rather than how hard the different disciplines are. And IT products have differing TCO in relation to support costs, irrespective of whether we find one more complex than the other.

[torledo]

I suppose programmers and developers help make more money compared to some one like a sysadmin who looks after a IT infrastructure who dosen't have any involvment in making much money compared to sales, marketing, kids i guess etc

 

I think you're almost right....except subsitute programmers and developers for businness analysts and consultants. The applications i've been mentioning are used for real world business activity - paying for goods and services and receipt of orders (SAP), devise marketing campaigns (Siebel). Tools that help the company do their day to day business of making money and paying creditos.

 

For that reason consultants of these business apps (sometimes mistakenly referred to as administtratos) are more valuable becuase they're skills are used to ensure these crucial systems are tailored and running as efficiently as possible, it also helps they have high level of specific training and their skills are in high demand.

 

Unfortunately while sysadmins are at the foundatin of what can and can't be achieved with technology....they are too far removed from the making the company money side of the business. We're too close to the engine room of the business to be noticed and acknowledged by mgmt. Exxcept they know we're there because they're paying for stuff they can't see - stuff that ensures the engine room doesnt grind to halt.....and it bugs them. Becuase these are the type of people who cn only understand something if it is presented to them as pie chart or a bar graph.

 

Say sexy word to them such as sap or business intelligence and they'll come over all interested. Say fiber channel or iscsi and they'll come overr all suspiciosus and begruding.

Edited April 26, 2008 by torledo

[jcollings]

I have to say whenever I read threads like this it makes me realise how lucky I am in my school. As IT Manager I get £32k, 11 weeks holiday, total support of the head and SLT, on the whole lovely staff both in my department and amongst the teachers and lots of opportunities for training and getting involved in the wider school community, directing plays, going on outdoor pursuits weekends etc. I also get to live in the Lake District which is pretty cool too.

 

Surely others on here must be in similar positions?

[ChrisH]

I think you will find there arent too many in your postion. The holiday especially. I thought I was doing well with 31 days.

[cookie_monster]

Errr jcollings, you live in some kind of IT heaven ;-) love it while it lasts. My pay is ok a bit behind yours but ok but i only get the standard 27 days hols and training what's that?

[jcollings]

Errr jcollings, you live in some kind of IT heaven ;-) love it while it lasts. My pay is ok a bit behind yours but ok but i only get the standard 27 days hols and training what's that?

 

Yes - I guess when I'm stressed and having a down day I need to remember it could be so much worse.

[Mr.Ben]

Just North of the Border in B&NES it's 22.5k per annum,, although I'm only paid for term times thats 46 weeks of pay + 10 days extra per year for essential works in the holidays + SNA allowance because i'm in a large special school.

 

I still have to work at Tesco's in the evening though to pay the mortgage!

[Friez]

I have to say whenever I read threads like this it makes me realise how lucky I am in my school. As IT Manager I get £32k, 11 weeks holiday, total support of the head and SLT, on the whole lovely staff both in my department and amongst the teachers and lots of opportunities for training and getting involved in the wider school community, directing plays, going on outdoor pursuits weekends etc. I also get to live in the Lake District which is pretty cool too.

 

Surely others on here must be in similar positions?

 

Any opportunities at your place for similar conditions? I think you win this round!