Nova T6 or Keith Johnson's Timetabler???

[Guest Katy]

Hello all

 

Can anyone tell me how they have got on with either of the above packages? We currently use Nova T4 with Sims and everything is fine but we have to stop using Nova T4 apart from using it for cover.

 

Can anyone tell me how they have found T6 and Timetabler and any particular problems or positives experienced with either.

 

Thanks Katy

[jcollings]

Our timetabler used the Keith Johnson software last year and as I recall it was ok - the issues came when we imported back to SIMS. I think he ended up doing a lot of manual renaming of classes etc.

 

I think we are going T6 this year.

[KirstyH]

We starting using T6 last year. The biggest problem we have had is the loss of data that occurs if more than 1 person tries to use T6 at once. We have a strict policy now; only three people have access to T6 and they never so much as open it if one of the others is working on the timetable. A huge amount of work was lost before we implemented this policy.

[Guest Katy]

thanks both of you - that's very helpful to know. Anyone else got any opinions? I think i would prefer T6 but my boss is a bit Anti T6 and pro Timetabler

[Ian_Southern]

I 've used NT6 since it first came out. I really like it and having used T4 and M&C it's a vast improvement on both. Can't comment on Timetabler but as we use SIMS in school I suppose I don't have much of a choice!!

[Sylv3r]

We are moving to T6.

 

We used Timetabler about 4 or 5 years ago, but decided to move to T4 after a year so it integrated better with SIMS.

[Grommit]

We used T4 and upgraded to T6 last year and it seems to be the best timetable product on the Market.. it also is part of SIMS so the teachers can pull up student timetables in SIMS

[Keith-Johnson]

Just to correct some of the earlier posts in this thread ...TimeTabler now has a full export-import link with SIMS .net.

It uses exactly the SAME import wizard that T6 uses, to put the completed timetable into SIMS .net.

 

You can read Users' Comments about it, at:

Users' Comments and Testimonials about TimeTabler

 

Users' Comments and Testimonials about TimeTabler

[Sivadam]

Ditto as per the other thread on this topic!

What is the point of not using the best? One of the best things that SIMS ever did was the acquisition of Clive Stott and his Nova suite!

I would probably not have been supporting SIMS as fiercely as I do without it!

Edited October 22, 2009 by Sivadam

[matt40k]

Timetabling is a dark art that requires dark magic and a large number of goats, or a good chess player. Unfortunately I used all my goats up getting the internet fix many moons again and I'm not that much of a chess player... so my opinion of using Nova-T6 is pretty much useless. My logic is that if you use SIMS, use the tools in SIMS. I'm sure Capita would have bought the best... still this could be logic of a man with no goats and about to be check mated.

[Keith-Johnson]

To ditto my response to "Sivadam"'s question on the other thread:

it is because TimeTabler includes features that T6 does not have, and is thought by many many Users to be more friendly and intuitive than T6.

 

See the Testimonials at:

http://www.timetabler.com/comments.html

 

And of course TimeTabler (as an official Capita-SIMS Partner) has an export to SIMS .net that uses exactly the same import wizard as T6.

 

Have a look at it, so you know what you are comparing?

[Edu-IT]

http://www.timetabler.com/images/REJ-TT.jpg

 

Looks a good product, but the site doesn't 'sell' it to me.

[MattMitchell]

Keith - I'm curious: what are the features that timetabler has that are missing from nova?

[vikpaw]

I don't like the idea of using it when Nova is built in, but it does look prettier, have nice colours, works better for the guy here that does timetabling. one features he mentioned that i couldn't replicate short of going back to T4 was combing and combing charts, other features such as automatic mode, and best fit apparently are better with Timetabler.

 

Perhaps Mike can shed some light on how these can be done within the hallowed T6.

 

Don't get me wrong, despite the above, i have disallowed the use of Timetabler and we've got Cover and Timetabling working fine in SIMS. I don't want extra work after all!!

[Keith_Irvine]

Although I haven't used SIMs and Nova T6 I offer the following:

 

I had to start timetabling from scratch in 2000 and did a lot of research on timetabling packages.

Timetabler came out ahead of all the 'MIS backed' packages because it required no formal [and highly expensive] training package as it was so intuative to use plus being cheaper than any of the others. NovaT at the time would have been over 100% more expensive to purchase and needed a specialist 2 day training course that wasn't available until June; far too late for timetabling!

 

We had a Phoenix MIS and have now moved on to WCBS PASS [i teach at an Independent school]. Both integrate with Timetabler; but you do need to read the paperwork!

Although I haven't used SIMs icons exist within Timetabler for the export routine which should be the same.

[iancrabbe]

I cannot really comment on T6 for the simple reason that I don't use it, but I can say that Keith Johnson's TImetabler program has proved a real boon for us over the past 6 years. Its scheduling capabilities are excellent, and we generally use it to schedule our final timetable. We've used it since 2003 and it handled, effortlessly, our change to a two-week timetable in September. We still use Nova T4 because it has useful printout routines, but the "smart thinking" is entirely handled by Timetabler.

 

Our MIS is iSAMS and there are useful import and export routines between this and Timetabler.

 

Ian

[DavidHayton]

I have been reading these posts with interest. I am the timetabler in an independent secondary school with a rather complicated curriculum plan. My principal requirement in a timetable package is that it does what I want it to do in the way that I want it done, and it lets me stay in control at all times. Keith Johnson's Timetabler does just that, and does it elegantly and intuitively. I really wouldn't use anything else.

 

I was appointed timetabler three years ago at the time when my school was moving from Phoenix to SIMS.net. Naturally I considered T6, and took advantage of four days of training. However it was clear that T6 found our curriculum plan difficult to encode. Three different people told me that it must be possible to encode the plan (the Capita rep amongst them) but nobody could come up with a solution. Meanwhile Timetabler coped easily. I encoded all the data into Timetabler myself, and needed no training apart from reading the manual.

 

I have now used Timetabler to produce three timetables. All were produced on time and the feedback from colleagues was positive and encouraging each time. The import into SIMS did run into a couple of problems in 2007 but the Timetabler helpline at the time was superb, and they improved the import file in 2008 and again in 2009.

 

David Hayton

King Henry VIII School, Coventry

[User3204]

Oh look, someone with a low post count asks a question of how good X vs Y products, and suddenly a bunch of people register to say how good product Y is...

 

Hmm, what an amazing coincidence...

[matt40k]

I was starting to think that, still, to be fair, he does like the product... TimeTabler Testimonials - Full versions

[DavidHayton]

I was starting to think that, still, to be fair, he does like the product... TimeTabler Testimonials - Full versions

 

Thanks Matt! I am a genuine timetabler in a genuine school (that's why I'm happy to give my school name), and I have no connection with Keith Johnson apart from the fact that I bought his software. As a timetabler I appreciate the way in which I am allowed to choose the tools that I need in order to do my job. Timetabling isn't an admin task, it is an intellectual activity that involves finding the best solution to a huge number of simultaneous equations. Once it is all solved, I can get the whole solution onto four sides of A3.

I would still use Timetabler even if I then had to type this 4-page solution into T6 because Timetabler allows me to build the timetable in exactly the same way as I would do it manually on a pin-board. I make all the decisions. Timetabler merely prioritises the activities, helps me out when activities won't fit, and keeps me from making any mistakes. Colleagues do query the timetable (no solution can ever please everybody all of the time), but I have always been able to explain the reason why things were as they were.

My impression of T6 is that more goes on behind the scenes. However, as I said in an earlier posting my experience of T6 is limited because when I wanted to use it, nobody could tell me how I could encode what was a fiendishly complicated curriculum plan into T6. The plan is now simpler but I still go nowhere near T6 because Timetabler uses the same import wizard into SIMS.net, so it would be a pointless activity typing everything into T6.

 

David Hayton

King Henry VIII School, Coventry

[Sivadam]

Wow! I go away to Italy for a week and look what happens:-

1) I get a challenge! If I had the time then I really would like to accept that - maybe in 3 years when I may well be ready for the timetabling rest home.

2) People saying that Timetabler does what NT6 cannot do! I would like to see some of that!

3) Somebody still wants to build a timetable like they used to do with pen and paper! Thank goodness Nova appeared many years ago (in DOS when I first used it!) - I spent enough years using paper and pencil before that!

 

To paraphrase somebody or other ..............

...................... 'I do not believe it!'

 

As a Timetable with over a quarter of century experience (actually it is now probably closer to a third of a century) I have no time for anything not connected to Nova. What can any other system have that NT6 does not have? And as for not being able to model a structure in NT6 - then I would suggest that the model is just not possible else NT6 would cope with it. Yes - you will get that in Timetable planning - you have to adapt and/or compromise if too many constraints cause unsolvable clashes. I simple do not believe that NT6 will not handle it! If it is possible then it can be done in NT6! Yes that is a challenge isn't it?

 

And those that say Timetabler is easier to use maybe do not quite understand some of the complexities that NT6 uses, which would explain the lack of understanding. Yes it can be difficult, especially for novices, but that is the nature of the Timetable process and NT6 is built to handle extremely complex structures. And the choice is yours as to how much you plan and build yourself and how much you ask NT6 to schedule for you.

 

David - I think you really should look into NT6 a little more deeply. Four sides of A3 sounds a little too large for my liking!!!! Then again - I prefer as few A4 Sheets as possible. I suppose it depends on what you term 'the whole solution'.

 

I won't repeat these comments in the other thread. I reckon I have said enough!

 

Topic closed for me now!

Edited October 30, 2009 by Sivadam

[matt40k]

Main reason why Nova isn't .net, it's sooo complex. Poor Capita person who has to do that!! I do wonder if they have already tried and failed.

[Sivadam]

NT6 complicated?

Of course it is - it is there to produce Timetables as efficiently as possible and, by there very nature, that is exctly what Timetables are!

Nova DOS seemed complicated at the time.

Nova Windows (eventually NT4) seemed very complicated after DOS - but it had no idea of concepts such as Facilities, Date-Stamping, etc which are now just normal features within NT6. One wonders how we coped before!

[garethEds]

Wow - even George Michael can use it:

 

 

http://www.timetabler.com/images/CKJ-TT.jpg

 

Well - you've gotta have Faith.

 

GJE

[DavidHayton]

Wow! I go away to Italy for a week and look what happens:-

1) I get a challenge! If I had the time then I really would like to accept that - maybe in 3 years when I may well be ready for the timetabling rest home.

2) People saying that Timetabler does what NT6 cannot do! I would like to see some of that!

3) Somebody still wants to build a timetable like they used to do with pen and paper! Thank goodness Nova appeared many years ago (in DOS when I first used it!) - I spent enough years using paper and pencil before that!

 

Thank you for your reply, Sivadam. You are now the fourth Nova devotee to tell me that it must have been possible to encode the curriculum plan, but then left me to my own devices. The first was the Capita trainer. There was also a Nova user in another school who sent it to his LEA Capita-SIMS support line (who never replied). The problem is now hypothetical as it occurred in a Year 11 scheme that my predecessor had implemented for Year 10 the previous year. I have since simplified the KS4 plan so this would no longer prevent me from using Nova.

 

However, since Timetabler solved the problem easily I stuck with it and I have got used to its functions. There are things that I can do in Timetabler (such as the a-la-carte arrangements for sixth form maths and double maths lessons that the head of maths requests. e.g, the two lessons taught by ABC must be at the same time as any two of the four lessons taught by DEF, whilst at least two of the three lessons taught by GHI and JKL must be at different times ... it goes on! It all tailors the maths provision to the students and enables individuals to study units relevant to their interests.) Timetabler allows me to create and use "dummy" teachers to act as team-teachers, in order to maintain maximum flexibility. I presume that there is a similar mechanism in T6 but it would take me ages to become proficient.

 

There is one big advantage to using pencil and paper - when a colleague presents an "observation" or "comment" on the finished product. Having used pencil and paper, you could explain exactly why the situation has arisen, what your thinking was, what the alternatives were and why you had to do what you had to do. Timetabler enables me to do just that whilst sweeping away the disadvantages that are so obvious with paper based methods. My predecessor used another package and he would generally resort to comments such as "that is what the computer came up with". No doubt it is possible to follow the reasoning and steps taken by T6, but it wasn't obvious to me.

 

I'm not sure that we will convince each other that "my Vic-20" is better than your "ZX80" but I do enjoy the debate. What has alarmed me on this board, however, is the perception that anything other than T6 should be "disallowed" or "not supported". Timetabler is a Capita partner and their product is equivalent to T6. It dumps the entire timetable into SIMS.net and from there the timetable can be accessed across the school just like a timetable from T6. As a timetabler, I want to choose the tools that I use in my work, just like as a Head of Department I choose the textbooks and equipment used in my department.

 

By the way my full solution is what I consider the minimum information needed to recreate the entire timetable with no further calculation or appendices. It is a big table with 40 periods along the top and 91 teachers down the side. In each of the 3640 boxes I print the teaching group, subject and room. In 8-point font, this fits on four landscape A3 sheets. It can reduce onto A4 but in middle age I find my arms are getting shorter than they used to be.

 

Anyhow teaching is beckoning on Monday. I obviously have too much time to post messages as long as this.

 

David Hayton

King Henry VIII School, Coventry