Nova T6 or Keith Johnson's Timetabler???

[Sivadam]

Sounds like pretty standard stuff to me David. Just normal procedures that you would expect any Timetable package to have. What you can't do of course is submit the dummy staff etc. to SIMS without corrupting P7, by creating dummy staff there too. But, if you really did want to do that (and obviously have to exclude them from SWC), then Nova would obviously do this too. Tell me - how does Timetable cope with date-stamping of Maintenance Datasets so that SIMS can hold different versions of the timetable for different points in the year? Or doesn't it? And how does it cope with the concept of 'facilities'? You don't have to answer these questions as I won't be continuing with this thread. I have said enough already!

 

As for leaving you in the lurch - we are all busy as timetablers and with whatever other roles we also have and, in any case, I have not even seen the model you wished to reproduce! I must apologise for one thing though - I do use pencil and paper as well, but obviously in conjunction with paper produced via Nova. When I am building the timetable I produce many, many Selection Printouts which I edit in pencil to ensure that all Groups/Staff/Rooms have an optimum fit. We all know that those last few groups will often not fit according to the wishes of HODs etc. and giving them copies of these draft timetables helps in discussion in resolving the issues.

 

My print-outs from Nova have 35 Periods and 86 Classroom Staff. This all fits into just 2.5 pages of A4. I have some different fonts and font sizes (with a minimum of 8 Point) for each of the Classes, Staff and Rooms in each cell. I also have different colours defined for each of these categories, just in case I want to produce a colour copy!

 

I can think of no reason whatsoever to consider using any other timetable program than the best - which is, of course, Nova.

 

End of topic for me now! We will all always have out own opinions and people who know me will appreciate how strong-willed I am anyway!

 

And before you ask - No! I don't not have any tie up with Capita other than using their, quite superb, software.

[RKW]

I am a reasonably experienced timetabler at a school operating the full range of Sims applications including Staff Cover, Lesson Monitor (linked to the school timetable), printing of individual pupil timetables etc.

 

However, I use Timetabler to construct the school timetable - as I have done over the past 13 years -and then transfer the completed schedule through to Sims.net where it takes on all of the functionality of a comparable transfer a timetable from Nova T. This Summer I was able to fully utilise the electronic transfer facility within Timetabler to seamlessly export to Sims.net.

 

My reply to this thread is not intended with like comparison between Timetabler and NovaT as I have not used NovaT to construct a school timetable. The fact is that I am able to use Timetabler to do everything that I need in timetabling and still provide all that is necessary for the school to run its Sims applications.

 

The support provided by Chris and Keith Johnson is second to none - they are available throughout the timetabling season to advise on timetabling issues right through to the final transfer to the school's MIS system. The most impressive feature to support the first-rate ,intuitive Timetabler software is the commitment and imagination of the software team to respond to the wish-list of school timetablers and to continuously evolve and develop Timetabler to provide new features.

 

This level of support and expertise provides me with welcome reassurance and much-needed flexibility when tackling my next school timetable.

[DavidHayton]

Hi Sivadam,

I'm sorry, I know you have had enough of our little debate but I did want to pick up on one or two comments that you brought up in your last post.

 

... Tell me - how does Timetable cope with date-stamping of Maintenance Datasets so that SIMS can hold different versions of the timetable for different points in the year? Or doesn't it? And how does it cope with the concept of 'facilities'?

 

I've not had a problem with timetable changes during the year. I indicate the start and end dates of a timetable during the import into SIMS. So putting two or more timetables in for different portions of the year isn't a problem. But, to be honest, we have few changes during the year and I have not found it a problem to edit staff and rooms within SIMS.net. I will however, ask Keith Johnson to take a look at what Nova can do is this respect. Timetabler is improved every year in response to users' feedback.

 

Timetabler doesn't have a problem with what you call "facilities"; it calls them "special resources". Different name - same thing as far as I can see. But can't every timetabling package do this sort of thing by using dummy teachers? For example the Music Room can be encoded as (ficticious) teacher ZMU who "team-teaches" with real teachers.

 

What I suspect is happenning is that you and I are coming to timetabling from different perspectives. Judging by your use of jargon, you are coming from an admin/IT side (apologies if I have misjudged this) and to you dummy teachers could risk upsetting the data base if they ended up in SIMS.net. I come into timetabling as a teacher and for me the experience of teachers and children is paramount. That said, even if I use dummy teachers, Timetabler whips them out at the export-import stage so SIMS doesn't get upset with me.

 

... As for leaving you in the lurch - we are all busy as timetablers and with whatever other roles we also have and, in any case, I have not even seen the model you wished to reproduce!

 

This is one of the reasons that I use Timetabler. Their helpline is superb and they have never left me in the lurch (unlike the Capita trainer whose job it was to help me.)

 

... When I am building the timetable I produce many, many Selection Printouts which I edit in pencil to ensure that all Groups/Staff/Rooms have an optimum fit. We all know that those last few groups will often not fit according to the wishes of HODs etc. and giving them copies of these draft timetables helps in discussion in resolving the issues.

 

I think that there is a key difference here between Timetabler and Nova. Timetabler's priority list (means that the difficult pieces are always brought to the top of the pile) and fit algorithm (moving already-fitted lessons around in order to fit subsequent lessons) mean that - for me - the last few groups do fit according to the wishes of HoDs. I am often working at the level of ensuring the best possible pattern and spread of lessons throughout the week (e.g, trying to avoid 2 lessons on adjacent days when the allocation was 2ppw). I must admit though to doing a significant amount of pre-planning with combing charts and conflict matrices (timetabler does all this) before I start scheduling. Even Timetabler would fail me if I tried to get it to do the equivalent of making two parallel lines meet.

 

... I can think of no reason whatsoever to consider using any other timetable program than the best - which is, of course, Nova. End of topic for me now! We will all always have out own opinions and people who know me will appreciate how strong-willed I am anyway!

 

I can't see us coming to an agreement on this point, but I do think every school should look at a range of packages (including Nova and timetabler) before deciding which is better for their school - whereas at the moment there seem to be too many people who just assume Nova is best, without ever looking at what else is available. I think that they owe it to the teachers and children in their school to find the best software, and you can' do that by only looking at one program (Nova) and then declaring that 'the winner'! That said, I do agree with you that we have probably spent enough time cluttering up this board. If you want to take our debate any further, maybe better if I bought you a beer sometime and we talked properly.

 

Best wishes,

David

[Sivadam]

Just to clarify one point for you David:-

I was in Teaching for a Total of 29 years and have been doing 'Admin/IT', as you put it, for a further 12 Years.

My Timetabling experience dates back just under 30 Years!

So please don't place inappropriate labels on me! I think that my record and the reputation that I have on SupportNet speak for themselves!

 

But, as I intimated in my 'Final Post' on this topic - I have finished discussing the original post.

 

As for the beer - I may see you at a SIMS meeting sometime, be it a UAT Session, a Software Consultation Group meeting, a Field Trial meeting etc. etc. I regularly contribute to these! I can't remember if your school is listed as one of the SIMS Partnership Schools but, if it is, then I could well meet you at the Partnership Schools Conference next week ....

Edited November 2, 2009 by Sivadam

[DavidHayton]

Just to clarify one point for you David:-

I was in Teaching for a Total of 29 years and have been doing 'Admin', as you put it, for a further 12 Years.

My Timetabling experience dates back just under 30 Years!

So please don't place inappropriate labels on me!

 

But, as I intimated in my 'Final Post' on this topic - I have finished discussing the original post.

 

Sivadam,

I am sorry to have upset you. All I had to go on was your very impressive grasp of the relevant jargon. I worried at the time that I was making a misjudgment - hence my qualified apology in the previous posting.

David

[Sivadam]

No need to apologise David.

At my age it would be stupid to get upset about a simple misunderstanding on forums such as this.

I just wanted you to know the true history and nature of my position.

[mortstar]

...Timetabling isn't an admin task, it is an intellectual activity that involves finding the best solution to a huge number of simultaneous equations...

 

What I suspect is happening is that you and I are coming to timetabling from different perspectives. Judging by your use of jargon, you are coming from an admin/IT side (apologies if I have misjudged this)

 

...too many people who just assume Nova is best, without ever looking at what else is available. I think that they owe it to the teachers and children in their school to find the best software

 

I may well be being hyper-sensitive here but it is comments like the above which belie the mentality of many a member of teaching staff, especially in their attitudes towards and of support staff. Look at that first quote, how dismissive of "admin" can you be? If timetabling isn't an administrative task, I don't know what it is.

 

I have worked for 5 years as a Network Manager and in that time I have always, always done what is best for the children of our school. As has every other member of 'admin/IT' staff on this board. That's why we are here - helping each other by combining our knowledge and experience so that we can do the best job in tough circumstances with very constrained budgets.

 

If you see some of the other MIS threads you will see Capita are rightly castigated for some of their software. If EduGeek members are favouring a particular piece of software/manufacturer you can trust that many options will have been considered and a consensus view usually becomes apparent. People aren't championing NovaT6 because they couldn't be bothered to check out other options.

 

Like I say, I'm probably being overly-sensitive. I have been thinking about your posts since I read some of them yesterday, followed by some of your replies today. I just wanted to get it off my chest.

Edited November 3, 2009 by mortstar

[Sivadam]

Mortstar, 'fraid I have to disagree with you about the SIMS Software despite your support for School Support Staff.

SIMS is an excellent software suite.

It is because of opinions such as yours that I decided to start contributing to these Forums - after reading some very biased and inaccurate comments about the software. I am afraid that such negative and untrue comments may well contribute to others having a lower opinion of School Support Staff than they ought to have.

There are some very knowledgeable people on here but I am afraid there are a considerable number who obviously do not really undesrstand how SIMS can be used effectively. Those that do castigate the software should start to read SupportNet more - where there are considerably more expert users!

Edited November 3, 2009 by Sivadam

[mortstar]

Mortstar, 'fraid I have to disagree with you about the SIMS Software despite your support for School Support Staff.

SIMS is an excellent software suite.

It is because of opinions such as yours that I decided to start contributing to these Forums - after reading some very biased and inaccurate comments about the software. I am afraid that such negative and untrue comments may well contribute to others having a lower opinion of School Support Staff than they ought to have.

There are some very knowlegdable people on here but I am afraid there are a considerable number who obviously do not really undesrstand how SIMS can be used effectively. Those that do castigate the software should start to read SupportNet more - where there are considerably more expert users!

 

Just to clarify - I do not mean the whole of SIMS, I mean certain modules/auxiliary software. SLG for example.

[Sivadam]

SLG is an evolving system and getting better with each upgrade. It has been well accepted here by both staff and parents.

So again, I am afraid that I disagree!

In fact I cannot think of any part of SIMS that anyone could justifiably castigate!

Yes, System7 and Examinations7 are long overdue - but they are being held back by movement within the Examination structures nationally. Something beyond Capita's control!

Edited November 3, 2009 by Sivadam

[DavidHayton]

Mortstar,

I am sorry if I have given you the impression that I am in any way dismissive of support staff in schools. Thank you for getting the issue of your chest. I suspect that there have been other support staff watching my debate with Sivadam over the past few days so it is helpful for me to put the record straight here and apologise if, within my postings, I have given a bad impression.

 

However, I do suspect that my perspective on timetabling is different to yours:

 

If timetabling isn't an administrative task, I don't know what it is.

 

I don't think that it is an admin task. I'm not trying to make any comment about the value of individuals working within a school, I'm simply making an observation. I agree with Mervyn Wakefield on this point so rather than waffle on, I'll attach the relevant link to his website:

 

http://www.mervynwakefield.co.uk/documents/RemodellingandTimetabling_001.pdf

 

David

Edited November 3, 2009 by DavidHayton

[Sivadam]

I wonder how any of you would categorise me then ..............

......... after 42 years of varying roles within a school and somebody who has designed and delivered the timetable every year for nearly 30 years!

Edited November 3, 2009 by Sivadam

[mortstar]

I wonder how any of you would categorise me then ..............

......... after 42 years of varying roles within a school and somebody who has designed and delivered the timetable every year for nearly 30 years!

 

Sadist

[Sivadam]

..... or should that be masochist?

 

Or maybe I should no longer be timetabling being as I am now employed as a member of the Support Staff.

I wonder how my current head (the most recent of many that I have supported over the years) would react to that ........

 

Anway - it's time for goodbye to this thread for me!

Edited November 3, 2009 by Sivadam

[vikpaw]

 

I've read the debate with interest and found some parts really useful. You often learn more about a product by someone pointing out things it can't do, than by reading the feature list and hearing what it can do. And before anyone says, 'some people think it can't do this, but they don't know / haven't read the manual' - i'm generalising.

 

Let's get . There's no need to continue discussing who we are and what we do; that's not helping the original poster.

 

Are there any other advantages or disadvantages of either products not listed here yet?

 

One of the things i was interested in was combing charts. Can NovaT6 do them, it was a feature in T4 I believe.

 

Little things like this may help someone out there make up their own mind as to which software they prefer based on how they like to work.

[wilmslow]

:)As a timetabler of many years I have always used the Keith Johnson timetabling package. I find it extremely user friendly and the level of support is exceptional. As a school we use the SIMS package for all our admin and I have experienced only some minor difficulties in exporting from the Johnson package to SIMS. Currently we are still transferring to NOVA T4(for the cover module) which we then send to NOVA T6 and then into SIMS.net, a process which only takes a couple of minutes. Our plan next year is to transfer direct to SIMS.net a process I see no problems with.

[warriorprincess]

Having had training on Nova T6 and with help from other timetablers, I produced my first timetable ahead of schedule (with only a couple of errors).

 

 

Although it has been better than ones in previous years (I've not had any complaints and some staff have even thanked me for their timetables-if only they knew that I didn't get down to the level of checking individual staff timetables), it still continues to give me split classes which is something I would like to reduce next year.

 

 

I would like to consider other software, which may help provide the optimum timetable, hence why I have been interested to read comparisons of Timetabler vs Nova T6.

 

Does anyone know if there is any way of trialling timetabler?

[DavidHayton]

I would like to consider other software, which may help provide the optimum timetable, hence why I have been interested to read comparisons of Timetabler vs Nova T6.

 

Does anyone know if there is any way of trialling timetabler?

 

Hi WarriorPrincess,

Congratulations on your timetable! Great to hear that you are hearing such positive comments about it.

 

If you are interested in trialling Timetabler, you can get a free download from their website: www.timetabler.com

 

If you get stuck, send them an email: [email protected]. In fact, send them an email anyway - their support line is superb.

 

David Hayton

King Henry VIII School, Coventry