Keith-Johnson

Veracross is North American in origin so you'll need to be assured that it will cope with your demands ...eg. I'm not aware of any UK state secondary school that uses Veracross.

I'm not connected to TimeTabler, Options or StaffCover any more, since Arbor (The Key) bought October ReSolutions Ltd in 2024 ...but I'm still interested in Timetabling !

Can't he spread it across 2 (or more) screens?

Atlantis : was developed in Australia for Australian schools ...so it may not be able to cope with typical UK secondary curricula. You'll need to check carefully.

Does your Cloud software regularly (regularly! eg. always) respond immediately (ie. very quickly) with the results of a calculation/procedure? ie. the way that desktop software currently does? [essential for timetable scheduling in UK secondary schools]

I don't think my views have changed substantially in recent years. I have sometimes been appalled at how long some MIS take to complete 'immediate' tasks. Has your MIS network ever gone down? How often do you see a 'spinning circle' before you get a response from your MIS? Can all the features of a desktop timetabling program be replicated in a Cloud version?? Has ANY timetabling software yet moved successfully to the Cloud? Could you (as Timetabler) afford to wait while a Cloud version found some possible solutions for you (as the human who knows about your colleagues) to choose from? If not, what is the likelihood of getting a Quality timetable. which your colleagues have to operate (and be subjected to) for the next 190 days? You can see that I'm dubious.

Some thoughts on choosing Timetabling software: 1--Do get your Timetabler to talk to the Timetabler in similar schools …and more than one, 2--If instructed by someone at your MAT to get a certain software, ask why and judge/question the reasons given, and the experience of the person behind them, 3--Do test software carefully that has been developed outside your own country, 4--Be aware that programs like aSc and UNTIS have mostly been used in Primary schools or schools without the complexity of UK secondary schools, 5--If support is readily available, do use it, especially in the first year of use, 6--Do be aware that programs based in the Cloud have some advantages but also distinct disadvantages for Timetablers, 7--Do consider whether the software can do the whole process …getting a 98% solution leaves the more difficult 2% for You to solve, 8--Do consider the time spent on setting it up…some programs take longer to set up the data but can then find a better solution faster, 9--Nova-T6 (developed by Clive Stott) has a particular viewpoint and moving away from it with an existing Timetabler may be difficult, 10--Just getting a solution should not be enough …getting a Quality solution should be the aim.

'TechMonkey' wrote (above, on Feb 3rd), about UNTIS, that "I want our timetabler to get a demo and report back." It would be very interesting to see that report.

Why not use the button on the main screen labelled "Support Centre" ...there are MANY ways to get specific help ...including for the specific problem you have posed. And if you haven't already done so, why not sign up for the free monthly Timetabling eNewsLetter which also gives you details of training courses, ...both on-line and face-to-face.

Just to say that there is an official export-import of the completed timetable from TimeTabler to Bromcom [ and also from Options to Bromcom]. Absolutely no need for manual entry.

This is getting a little more focussed than I'd expected, I'd been trying to keep the discussion more general ...but replying to the comment from 'Primus' : We send regular Surveys to Users (as well as our open WishList) asking for comments ...and on the last Survey (of timetablers/Users, not IT Managers as such) only one person (one) out of hundreds of replies commented on the User Interface. Perhaps it's in-tune with the mind-set of many timetablers? Is it the difference between software designed by a timetabler and software designed by a programmer? Such Surveys and the WishList are our way of keeping in tune with Users. I'd be very interested to continue a discussion of the particular UI off-list.

Responding to David, who wrote "I would also challenge your argument that timetabling cannot be multi-user ... ..." It's a logically impossible problem. Of course you can install on a network but it doesn't make logical sense from a timetable-viewpoint to have two people trying to schedule simultaneously ...the timetable would have to be in two universes at the same time! Otherwise you might find one User trying to schedule class 7A on Monday-1 for Maths while another User is trying to schedule that class/period with History, etc., ...and further than that, each single placement on a schedule then has a knock-on effect on every other item yet to be placed, so the sequence of placements is important. And all the timetable data is inter-related. This is equally true of all timetabling software. So logically only one User at a time, so at each step the timetable moves into a single new universe. (You can have a team of users, who could access the software from different machines if they wish, but only one machine at a time.) Other arguments about the Cloud and when to move into it with different software are for discussion ...but on this point [and the fact that the timetable program is normally working on next year's data] a timetable program and an MIS are fundamentally different. So convincing arguments for one don't usually apply to the other. That's the key point I think. It won't stop timetabling companies moving into the cloud, but Users' expectations need to be realistic. [And seen from the Timetabler's point of view as well as the IT Manager's]

1. "More and more schools are moving away from Windows." It would be interesting to know the figures. 2. "updates are easier to manage. Reduced overheads." True, it's a way of reducing IT staff & support. 3. "The risk of losing data is reduced." Mmm? Arguable!

There is a natural inclination for everyone to assume that software should be "in the Cloud". But it depends! It depends on the purpose and use of the software. In particular the reasons for an MIS and for timetabling software are very different. A MIS is multi-user, and deals with current data, ...and is therefore ideal for Cloud software. Timetabling is different. Because of the inter-connectedness of all the data, it is logically impossible to be truly multi-user (an action by one User would change the universe for every other User!). And timetabling does not use the current data in the MIS ...It works with notional and conjectured data for next year. For both these reasons, for timetabling there is no advantage in cloud computing . [And Users wanting to work in different locations can easily store & access the data via Dropbox, GoogleDrive, etc.]

Hello Supportman Yes, smaller changes (like the usual room-swaps after the start of term) are best done in the MIS. You'd normally only go back to the timetabling software if you needed to make bigger structural changes to the timetable during the year (eg. if someone goes on maternity leave and the replacement isn't qualified to teach all the classes, so you have to shuffle staff around). For more detailed help your colleague can contact the free Support Centre. Keith

TimeTabler (and Options and StaffCover) have a WishList system ...and the software is updated with Users' minor requests almost weekly throughout the year, ...as well as the major annual update with new features. So from that point of view it's as modern as Users (ie. Timetablers) want it to be. The Cloud has so many disadvantages for a timetabler that TimeTabler is not yet cloud-based; we'll keep reviewing the situation. Options is much more appropriate for being Cloud-based and we have actively started work on this (the linked TOOLS program is already Cloud). Keith Johnson

'Supportman' wrote: "We are most likely going to buy Keith Johnson's TimeTabler. And then just build manually into Bromcom." Just to say that you do not need to enter the completed timetable manually into Bromcom! There is an official import into Bromcom to take an export from TimeTabler. This has the advantages of speed ...but also of accuracy ...no typing errors!

The software mentioned above by 'Ditto' does link to Bromcom MIS, ...the students' Choices can be collected on-line and then processed, and the results transferred directly into the Bromcom MIS.

The PDF on 'Timetabling for Social Distancing in Schools' at: Social Distancing & Covid-19 - TimeTabler is up to version-6 now.

Splitting the options groups in Years/Grades 10 (and 12) into two (or three) groups of (say) less than 15 is non-trivial. In order to communicate the 2 (or more) Populations to parents, students and staff, it is best to do it by way of the initial letter of the surname, eg. A-L and M-Z. Sounds straightforward, but it isn't! Reason: In Block/Column/ElectiveLine A, there may be (say) a History group with students in it with names from (say) only A-P; and in the French group in the same Block A there may be students with names from (say) only H-Z. In a situation like this, splitting the school by A-L and M-Z may be easy to tell parents, ...but a group of 18 initially, when split, may still end up being over the limit at (say) 16-2 ! There is more discussion of this, and a solution in the 10-page PDF titled: 'Social Distancing & Covid-19 : timetabling'.

There's a 10-page PDF on 'Timetabling for Social Distancing in Schools' at: Social Distancing & Covid-19 - TimeTabler It's up to version-4 now.

Just click the 'Support' button, to be taken to the free Support Centre for TimeTabler and they will help you. Also: have you read the free documentation for exporting to each MIS?

Please contact the TimeTabler Support Centre, as explained in HelpMovie number 4 in the HelpMovie Library. Keith Johnson

And unfortunately state schools only, so some important suppliers are not mentioned.

I've just seen this post, and wanted to correct a misunderstanding : TimeTabler will do anything that Nova-T can do. And you can import from TimeTabler into iSAMS. It sounds like you didn't take advantage of the HelpLine, to find the best way to use the program in your particular school. Or if the problem was about scheduling IB classes at HL and SL there are articles in the KnowledgeBase in the Support Centre.