Smart Heating

[john]

You know that Worcester is British in the way that Mini is a British brand? [emoji3]

 

Doesn't make it bad, just that it's still German...

Didn't think they hid it now as its often written as Worcester Bosch giving the big clue who it is behind the name

[mavhc]

Interesting that all the tech people are still installing systems that rely on the internet/services continuing to be provided, not running it all themselves

[PD1279]

Hi, the Nest uses geolocation on the phones (when app installed) to detect whether home or away, and also the thermostat has motion detection on it too. You can put the app on many phones, so if the main person goes out it doesn't turn the schedule off until all phones are away and then gives it 20 mins or so, just in case you have popped to shops :-)

Again we can put the heating on when on the way home so nice when home, esle it uses the schedule.

We never have a problem with it, and no subscription which is best too

[MatthewL]

I'm quite happy to run something at home but everything seems to go back to the "cloud" these days, for me I am not fussed as long as I can program it easier either on an app when at home or an easier to setup screen. I want to be more efficient and cool certain rooms off and have better control of my heating is the reason I am looking in to.

[Marci]

Interesting that all the tech people are still installing systems that rely on the internet/services continuing to be provided, not running it all themselves

 

I’m not...! RaspberryPi running Domoticz & Homebridge, all sensors manually added to it (via combination of IR, Wired, Bluetooth, WiFi, and older RF devices via RFXTRX433E) with everything done locally on the Pi. Homebridge-eDomoticz plugin sets the Pi up as a HomeKit server, using AppleTV to provide external remote & voice control to Apple devices regardless of whether at home or away. It’ll also bridge across to advertise it all to Alexa if desired. Has it’s own secure webserver and it’s own selection of apps available. More graft, but more flexibility to use what you want without tying to a single ecosystem / protocol, with all data staying internal. Supports pretty much all mainstream home automation protocols and devices.

 

For the heating in particular I’m using an old Siemens RDJ10RF radio thermostat, and a custom script that replays the original room-transmitter’s on/off signals via the Pi, so the thermostat logic is all done in Domoticz’ events system (using bluetooth-LE to work out what room I’m in and switch to temp probe in that room as trigger for thermostat etc).

 

Geofencing is handled by HomeKit app of choice (as all my mobile devices are Apple).

Edited January 22, 2019 by Marci

[PD1279]

I’m not...! RaspberryPi running Domoticz & Homebridge, all sensors manually added to it (via combination of IR, Wired, Bluetooth, WiFi, and older RF devices via RFXTRX433E) with everything done locally on the Pi. Homebridge-eDomoticz plugin sets the Pi up as a HomeKit server, using AppleTV to provide external remote & voice control to Apple devices regardless of whether at home or away. It’ll also bridge across to advertise it all to Alexa if desired. Has it’s own secure webserver and it’s own selection of apps available. More graft, but more flexibility to use what you want without tying to a single ecosystem / protocol, with all data staying internal.

 

For the heating in particular I’m using an old Siemens RDJ10RF radio thermostat, and a custom script that replays the original room-transmitter’s on/off signals via the Pi, so the thermostat logic is all done in Domoticz’ events system (using bluetooth-LE to work out what room I’m in and switch to temp probe in that room as trigger for thermostat etc).

 

Geofencing is handled by HomeKit app of choice (as all my mobile devices are Apple).

 

BLIMEY !

[mavhc]

First question is all wifi, or use another wireless system?

 

Second thing is sensors, I assume someone makes a £10 usb powered temp/air quality/etc sensor with wifi I can put in each room?

 

Detecting people seems to be hard still, not too bad for heating as it's on an hour delay anyway, but lighting is always a pain.

[Marci]

Personally, a mix and match of whatever was affordable (read: cheap)... hence the Seimens thermostat control, which came to a grand total of £15 off eBay. Room-based stuff is predominantly old RaspberryPi 1 ModelB’s and Pi Zeros with WiFi adapters (each Pi runs Domoticz in a master / slave setup), and appropriate sensors for that room hardwired (ie: the standard dallas probes etc for Pi / Arduino from eBay). Ground floor temp / humidity / air qual / IR Motion sensors are wired direct to the main Pi via 1Wire protocol. Lights & sockets are mainly Lightwave RF. Have a few WiFi bulbs and few Bluetooth bulbs. Curtains are 48BYJ steppers, again hard-wired to the native Pi in the room. SkyQ & TVs are controlled via each one’s rest apis over the existing WiFi. Other media devices without intelligence (old Sony Home Theatre amp for instance) are controlled via IR transceivers.

 

There are a few scripts out there to deal with presence detection via bluetooth & wifi... partnered with in-room IR motion sensors it all ends up rather accurate.

 

Electric and Gas meters use reed switches, again over 1wire back to the main Pi, with python scripts to convert detected pulses to w/kw/units/£ as desired. A bit of custom scripting also connects my telescope / astrophotography setup so that I can control the basics of that / monitor it from indoors also. A Pi out in the shed handles switching pond pumps, filters & lighting on/off, with pH sensors in the water. I also use WiFi IP Cameras around the place to enhance motion detection as you can set the motion action on the camera to hit up a http address, so they all trigger http endpoints on the Pi that link thru to Domoticz controls, so I can get notifications via HomeKit of motion when I’m not at home. RF doorbell is also detected by the RFXTRX433E, so a press on that triggers a snapshot on the relevant IP Camera and sends that to my phone as a notification, which HomeKit then allows me to tap to enable realtime streaming of camera feeds & two-way voice comms.

 

Most of the wired stuff could be made to be wireless these days with some Arduino Nano action, but it all works as it is so that’s all low on the priorities list.

 

Been running / growing the system for about 7 years now I think.

Edited January 22, 2019 by Marci

[nathan]

We've just done some building work (well it was completed prior to Christmas). Mid way through our 20 year old boiler decided to break so we had to push forward the replacement. We went with a Worcester in combi in the end with a 10 year guarantee. It powers our heating and UFH on two different zones. I went for the Nest in the end, one for each zone with manual TRV's on the radiators upstairs as this always was too warm whilst downstairs was cooler. I tell you what, you don't have notice the difference with a new boiler - our house now heats up in around 25 minutes.

 

I've just purchased 3 nest protects, these will also feed into the home/assist on the heating.

[nathan]

Personally, a mix and match of whatever was affordable (read: cheap)... hence the Seimens thermostat control, which came to a grand total of £15 off eBay. Room-based stuff is predominantly old RaspberryPi 1 ModelB’s and Pi Zeros with WiFi adapters (each Pi runs Domoticz in a master / slave setup), and appropriate sensors for that room hardwired (ie: the standard dallas probes etc for Pi / Arduino from eBay). Ground floor temp / humidity / air qual / IR Motion sensors are wired direct to the main Pi via 1Wire protocol. Lights & sockets are mainly Lightwave RF. Have a few WiFi bulbs and few Bluetooth bulbs. Curtains are 48BYJ steppers, again hard-wired to the native Pi in the room. SkyQ & TVs are controlled via each one’s rest apis over the existing WiFi. Other media devices without intelligence (old Sony Home Theatre amp for instance) are controlled via IR transceivers.

 

There are a few scripts out there to deal with presence detection via bluetooth & wifi... partnered with in-room IR motion sensors it all ends up rather accurate.

 

Electric and Gas meters use reed switches, again over 1wire back to the main Pi, with python scripts to convert detected pulses to w/kw/units/£ as desired. A bit of custom scripting also connects my telescope / astrophotography setup so that I can control the basics of that / monitor it from indoors also. A Pi out in the shed handles switching pond pumps, filters & lighting on/off, with pH sensors in the water. I also use WiFi IP Cameras around the place to enhance motion detection as you can set the motion action on the camera to hit up a http address, so they all trigger http endpoints on the Pi that link thru to Domoticz controls, so I can get notifications via HomeKit of motion when I’m not at home. RF doorbell is also detected by the RFXTRX433E, so a press on that triggers a snapshot on the relevant IP Camera and sends that to my phone as a notification, which HomeKit then allows me to tap to enable realtime streaming of camera feeds & two-way voice comms.

 

Most of the wired stuff could be made to be wireless these days with some Arduino Nano action, but it all works as it is so that’s all low on the priorities list.

 

Been running / growing the system for about 7 years now I think.

 

I'm also using the Domiticz with an RFXTRX433E, it's pretty much only powering LightwaveRF switches but i want to replace the doorbell. Used to read electricity usage with a OWL but it has since died. Will be interesting to hear more about the setup on the meters.

[mavhc]

What I need is monitoring of solar incoming power, mains incoming or outgoing power, and a way to divert power to car or water heating when there's excess.

 

Currently solar power is going to a smart display and a thing that uploads it to energynote.eu, and there's 2 mains sensors, one in the smart electricity and gas meters, and one using a clamp on the incoming power cables, that one can't tell which way the power is flowing.

[howartp]

What I need is monitoring of solar incoming power, mains incoming or outgoing power, and a way to divert power to car or water heating when there's excess.

https://myenergi.uk/

 

Zappi for your car, Eddi for water.

 

Not sure if/how they can work together but I'm sure there will be a way.

[howartp]

https://myenergi.uk/Not sure if/how they can work together but I'm sure there will be a way.

Just checked the FAQs; both talk to each other.

[jthompson]

What I need is monitoring of solar incoming power, mains incoming or outgoing power, and a way to divert power to car or water heating when there's excess.

 

Currently solar power is going to a smart display and a thing that uploads it to energynote.eu, and there's 2 mains sensors, one in the smart electricity and gas meters, and one using a clamp on the incoming power cables, that one can't tell which way the power is flowing.

 

I don't have any smart heating systems or solar power, but I have some https://openenergymonitor.org/ kit at home, with some of the temperature and humidity sensors in key locations around the house. You'll be able to monitor mains and solar power with it. Can run standalone without Internet connectivity and comes with OpenHAB and Node-Red included in the system.

[PotNoodleTech]

I've just got a combi boiler with a hard wired thermostat with different settings for weekdays and weekends. If my house gets cold the heating turns on. If the house is warm the heating turns off. Not sure really why you would need anything more!

 

I certainly don't!

[Andrew_C]

I certainly don't!

Are you using a pen to write this?

 

Smart heating allows a much finer control of the boiler and zones within your house. This equates to greater comfort and/or energy saving. Why don't you want that?

[Theblacksheep]

I've just got a combi boiler with a hard wired thermostat with different settings for weekdays and weekends. If my house gets cold the heating turns on. If the house is warm the heating turns off. Not sure really why you would need anything more!

 

I certainly don't!

 

A smart thermostat will learn that it takes X hours from 'on' to reach Y temperature based on historical memory, external temp and current temp. It will also learn the 'residual heat pattern' of your room source, so the heating turns off before the target temp as the residual heat in the radiators will allow it to hit target temp. Binary systems overshoot the room temp because of this, a room set to 23 will often hit 25/6 because of it, then you crack a window to cool it back down!

 

You can also set min temps so the heating, this will maintain house temp resulting in the system isn't warming up whole house 5 degrees every day (running for 3 hours) when it can bring it on in short bursts.

 

This will save money on your heating, I wouldn't have a house without one now.

Edited January 24, 2019 by Theblacksheep

[jthompson]

I'm with @AButters on this in a sense in that if a house is performing well thermally, you shouldn't need much more than a dumb timer and thermostat. That's what we have and we don't see any overshooting of temperatures. Radiators are set according to our usage and preferences for each room and we have a fairly predictable pattern of being at home or not. We never touch the thermostat and would just advance the timer if we're at home during an off period.

[BOOT]

No idea how anyone can afford such things. I don't have working heating any more, and even when I did it stayed on 24/7 just to keep the temperature above 10°. Still saving for a new boiler, had hopes for ECO 3 scheme but that's still not materialised.

[PyROm]

A lot depends on your house and how the radiators have been setup. Radiators in a house need balancing and this is often either not done properly, or an extension was added on after it was done and it throws it off. Balancing is just restricting the flow of water through each radiator so they warm up at different speeds based on room size etc. to try and get whole all rooms to heat up at same speed.

 

Our house faces North/South, meaning in the morning one side is sunny and the rooms get very hot, with the other side of the house being cold, this is then reversed in the evenings, which makes it hard to locate a single thermostat to get the heat in both rooms right, by having the smart trv`s it allows it keep all rooms comfortable. Especially useful for us is that we have pet gerbils and dont want the room to get too cold for them, so we can leave the heating running in their room and put it a lot colder in others during work hours/night time, effectively turning it off in those rooms.

[mavhc]

If your house is empty during the day don't want heating/cooling on, unless it's free solar of course.

 

Surely it's better to let the house cool down when no one's home rather than keeping it warm, because the energy loss will be proportional to the temp difference inside and outside.

 

£10 sensor in each room, for temp mostly, would control the TRV (£20) in that room, thus each room is heated to the temp that room requires. If 0 rooms need heating then the heating is turned off. Link it to your calendar/location to turn on for when you're scheduled to arrive home, off when you leave.

 

Also a rapid drop in temp = the window has been opened, so turn off heating.

 

5 rooms = £150, plus something that can turn the heating on and off

[jthompson]

Surely it's better to let the house cool down when no one's home rather than keeping it warm, because the energy loss will be proportional to the temp difference inside and outside.

 

I'd argue that you don't want to let the house cool down too much whilst you're out, as the work required to heat all that material (furniture, etc.) back up again may push the system towards lower efficiency. Rather like it being more economical to drive smoothly, without too much acceleration and deceleration along the way. The better your insulation, the easier that is.

[mavhc]

I'd argue that you don't want to let the house cool down too much whilst you're out, as the work required to heat all that material (furniture, etc.) back up again may push the system towards lower efficiency. Rather like it being more economical to drive smoothly, without too much acceleration and deceleration along the way. The better your insulation, the easier that is.

 

Heat in vs heat out. Reduce the heat going out.

 

Cars lose energy when braking, and use more energy when accelerating faster than slower. Also the air resistance is the cube of the speed, so going half slow and half fast is worse.

 

Plus you're using energy to move the hot water around the house.

[jthompson]

If the choice is between:

• keeping the heating off whilst you're out but having the house get really cold.
  
• having the heating on for a period whilst you're out but having the house stay within easier reach of your comfort zone.
  

 

it's not necessarily going to be the case that the first option is going to be the most energy efficient for you, even though the second option involves doing work whilst nobody is there.

[PyROm]

I have experimented with hot all time vs cooling. We energy company fitted gas/electric smart meter I used for comparisons. I found dropping 3 degrees whole out was most efficient for our house (18c down to 15c).