[sims] SIMS 8 Press Release 30th March 2017

[pcstru]

@Michael - as I said - this is not SIMS7 in a browser. The database structure has been completely rethought to support change requests that have been implemented. We are definitely not plonking the existing database into Azure!!

Very brave. Are you going big bang for migrations or have the nightmares of core integrator finally diminished and no longer trouble you ;-)?

[PhilNeal]

SIMS Primary is big bang but we'll control schools uptake. Options & Exam Analysis will work on 7 & 8. T6 will work with 8 with a replacement planned for 18/19.

 

We don't have a sunset date as yet for SIMS7 & we're still working on pricing.

[vikpaw]

T6 will work with 8

Care to elaborate sir?

[PhilNeal]

Schools will be able to use Nova-T6 and feed the result back into 8. We are building a new Timetable module in the cloud but are phasing it to follow the main release of 8.

[Michael]

With all the talk of SIMS8, presumably there will be an FMS version also?

[PhilNeal]

@Michael - yes something is coming aimed at academies first in early 18.

[zag]

I just wanted to say thanks Phil, It's really nice to get feedback on this and our questions answered. Looking good!

[minimoo]

Its interesting all the discussion here is from tech types. If you go into a school with a cloud MIS the NM and team hardly touch it . . .

 

I hope in a few years the discussion around a new MIS is around how it can better support the processes of an educational establishment and critically the learning of young people rather than just hopes of an easily deployed and maintained piece of software.

 

It crazy the magnitude of discussions I see around the setup and config of SIMS for a product that has been a market leader for years and lets face it it hasn't moved forward a great deal in recent times . . .

 

@bigdanny - you've probably made the best point in this whole thread (apart from Phil's insight into the future ofc). We've recently been evaluating replacing our wireless - I got as far as going "whilst we really like company X for reasons a,b,c - we should probably also look at vendor Y as their web interface..." at which point I stopped. I don't look at current wireless web interface. Our purpose for updating is to replace old kit that is problematic and occassionally needs a reboot. IF I have to look at web interface to diagnose lots of issues with the new wireless kit - that would means the new kit is a failure. Therefore as I realised with wifi kit - I don't need to care about what XvsY do in their web ui. For solus - the same concept is true - The only action I should need to take is to "deploy a new upgrade" - agents should update themselves, sims should update itself on it's own. If I ever need to log in to solus UI to do more then deploy an upgrade the system has failed (which means there's a bug to resolve which means a support case to log).

 

With a cloud MIS - only time we should be touching it is if school staff identify a bug, some REST api call is being slow (you'd hope capita would monitor that themselves), azure fails

[vikpaw]

I'm impressed that everyone is talking practicalities as though the migration is a given, rather than trying to find out exactly what the features are.

 

Don't we usually recommend that anyone that wants to migrate draws up a check list and ensures the system ticks the right boxes....?

[minimoo]

I'm assuming migration is a given at some point - Capita have like 250 staff in total I believe - I can't see them spliting that between sims7 and sims8 as their market is still the same number of schools. So that means at some point presumably sims8 will become an 'upgrade' from 7. Capita used to complain about the demands put on them by government census's etc - I can't imagine they want to code that work twice for ever. I can imagine capita backing down at some point and letting school's host their own version - but *only* if cloud concept fails in some way. So I'd expect that in 5 years from now - sims7 development will have ceased and schools would have been upgraded to sims8, whether that's still cloud only or not will depend on what happens between now and then with the cloud - but it's quite clear the direction things are currently going.

 

I still remember how the migration from the old sims modules to sims.net worked - that was fun - with the system being in 'read only mode' for a while etc.

[vikpaw]

Well, that depends on whether it's classed as an upgrade or a new system. If it's a significant departure from SIMS 7, structure, format, features, look and feel etc. many will argue that it should be subject to a tender process as it's no different to changing to a different product / company.

 

The long process involved in migrating people away means they won't be able to shut down support for 7 quickly.

 

Cost is going to be a significant factor in how it's perceived and a discount for existing customers could be considered an abuse of their monopoly position.

 

I know these are major factors in the release and how things play out will be interesting to see. I don't think it will be as easy as, "we're upgrading to .net" but it's the same product. The market is too open for that now.

[minimoo]

I'm pretty sure Phil has already said about people being able to see/use options/exams later this year. Talking about options... we currently have an in-house web form, which I then type up - the ability to do this within sims will therefore be good - that's 3 forms i no longer need to maintain. In the past our only option would have been to use learning gateway I believe, but that would have been $$$'s to setup. I'm not familiar with rules around tender processes, but if it's a modular system that is gradually introduced (to secondaries), i'd class that more as an upgrade - as it is now, schools have added/removed modules over time. The "problem" that arguably exists with that concept is at some point database needs to move from being local to the cloud - and at that point, that is a major change.

 

I can only assume that options/exams will somehow be based around their "service manager" concept - and given that we are probably at the start of a 5 year process - I'm not quite sure at what point you'd do a tender process in that context? (after the last module is developed in 5 years from now?)

 

Cost will be the most interesting factor - historically over the years when Capita have increased the bill by 10-15% in a year, and we've contacted them and asked why - "development costs" have been the cited answer. That answer surely can't work in the current climate for schools - if anything, we need to see a cost reduction! I'd like to think that the plan is not to increase costs for schools - and maybe to try and reduce them down the line. Quite how you achieve that and keep shareholds happy - sounds like a big headache

[Jehanzeb]

SIMS Primary is big bang but we'll control schools uptake. Options & Exam Analysis will work on 7 & 8. T6 will work with 8 with a replacement planned for 18/19.

 

We don't have a sunset date as yet for SIMS7 & we're still working on pricing.

 

I am guessing SIMS7 will have shelf life for good years to come? We certainly don't want to see it dead just as yet simply because we need more time to see and trust cloud service, feature options as well as financial viability.

 

Kindest regards

 

J.

[GAdigital]

Will there be further information in relation to security and how sims 8 will work with the ncsc 14 security principles?

 

I expect being based on Azure much of this will be covered off already.

[mjk]

Cost will be the most interesting factor - historically over the years when Capita have increased the bill by 10-15% in a year, and we've contacted them and asked why - "development costs" have been the cited answer. That answer surely can't work in the current climate for schools - if anything, we need to see a cost reduction! I'd like to think that the plan is not to increase costs for schools - and maybe to try and reduce them down the line. Quite how you achieve that and keep shareholds happy - sounds like a big headache

 

Our school already costed the savings when moving to a web based MIS as to be a minimum of £15,000 per year for our school. They could put the price up by 50% and we'd still be quids in. *the cost saving was based upon using iSAMS vs Capita SIMS.

I'm impressed that everyone is talking practicalities as though the migration is a given, rather than trying to find out exactly what the features are.Don't we usually recommend that anyone that wants to migrate draws up a check list and ensures the system ticks the right boxes....?

 

We are on it already! but it's still vaporware as far as checklists are concerned.

[vikpaw]

... but it's still vaporware as far as checklists are concerned.

That was kind of my point. Would we be discussing practicalities, migration and cost for any other vaporware?

We've known it's been on the cards for years and it's great to finally get some official information however, I'm rather disappointed there's nothing really concrete here.

I know, if you're already with SIMS, then it's a a big deal (maybe, potentially...) , but is it a given that you'd move to SIMS 8.

 

I feel a poll coming on, not quite sure how to structure the question(s) though.

[bigdannyb79]

My suggestion - will sims ever release version 8 and if they do will it be as out of date as their current 'market leading' product by the time they do ?

[mjk]

That was kind of my point. Would we be discussing practicalities, migration and cost for any other vaporware?

We've known it's been on the cards for years and it's great to finally get some official information however, I'm rather disappointed there's nothing really concrete here.

I know, if you're already with SIMS, then it's a a big deal (maybe, potentially...) , but is it a given that you'd move to SIMS 8.

 

We'll also need to know about the SLA's that Capita will provide. Are these published yet @PhilNeal ?

What happens if the system grinds to a halt through no fault of the schools, how much does Capita compensate us ?

Still, I'm quite positive about this and I suspect we'll be an early adopter.

[jmak]

So those authorities that host SIMS centrally and give access to schools via RDP/VPN will no longer be able to sell such a service?

I might have missed it, but I didn't spot an answer to this question. Can anyone confirm? Will there still be the option for LAs to be resellers and provide support, rather than schools going to Capita directly?

[mjk]

I might have missed it, but I didn't spot an answer to this question. Can anyone confirm? Will there still be the option for LAs to be resellers and provide support, rather than schools going to Capita directly?

On a hosted system I can't imagine what sort of support LA's could offer that wasn't in the documentation.

[vikpaw]

Sims 7 has online help, but countless people sell support and training. The only thing that I suppose they won't be able to do is host.

Although there's nothing to stop there being regional cloud hubs, which Capita could delegate control of. It would mitigate the issue of their support staff being overrun.

[jmak]

On a hosted system I can't imagine what sort of support LA's could offer that wasn't in the documentation.

I was mostly thinking about user support rather than technical support - and also whether Capita was planning to scale their helpdesk to handle the volume of queries they might have to take on if LAs were no longer in the loop.

[mjk]

I was mostly thinking about user support rather than technical support - and also whether Capita was planning to scale their helpdesk to handle the volume of queries they might have to take on if LAs were no longer in the loop.

 

All comes down to the SLA that I'm hoping Phil will give us a link to.

[bigdannyb79]

Schools will be able to use Nova-T6 and feed the result back into 8. We are building a new Timetable module in the cloud but are phasing it to follow the main release of 8.

 

@PhilNeal I'm somewhat surprised to hear this. Timetabling software is the one area I thought you would keep as a desktop application due to the nature of the job. I wouldn't like to think all the work I do on producing a timetable needs a constant internet connection. Also many of the drag and drop processes associated with designing a timetable suit a desktop app over even the most modern web interfaces. I can see a nice mix and match where maybe some simple swaps and changes can be made online but to migrate all of the functionality of Nova into the cloud seems like a process that is bound to have compromises with little gain. Timetable is a tool used by the few so the benefits of being cloud that can be applied to the rest of the product dont really apply here. Did you consider retaining it as a desktop app or was the decision made to migrate the whole product suite into the cloud ?

[matt40k]

I would imagine SIMS technical staff would disappear and you'd just end up with just technical staff. Can't imagine you'd ever get rid of them purely because you have to have some sort of hardware locally and if you're offering a 2 hour fix SLA, wasting 4 hours travelling kinda eats into that.

 

Unless Capita are going to offer alot of train-the-trainer sessions. I can't see how non-Capita support teams can operate, they'll also be limited to lower prices as they won't have the knowledge to command a premium.

 

All comes down to the SLA that I'm hoping Phil will give us a link to.

 

I doubt that'll end up in the public domain, also its a bit hard to write a SLA for a service that isn't live-live, unless its pretty worthless.