100% Cloud

[dobsonl]

Hi Guys & Girls,

 

So the inevitable conversation raised its head today, I thought I had done so well to avoid it for over 6 years! You probably know roughly how it goes...

 

Business manager today has said that to him it makes sense for us to have everything (and I mean everything!) in the cloud... Apparently he was at a conference yesterday and spoke to a free school and they don't have a single server in there school!

 

As much as I like new technology and willing to embrace it, I really can't see how you can't have a single server in school, has anybody done this? Or even got any tips etc?

 

Currently looking at moving mail to office 365 from exchange, but beyond that I really don't know how to go about dealing with files - there's probably about 1tb worth of user files (not including settings & profiles) along with another 1tb in shared files, or even how do you manage computers to give everyone software and allowing them to login on computers as we can't afford for a one to one device ration.

 

Thanks in advance for any help or pointers

[DJ-1701]

Well lets start with a failover internet connection... scary thought going fully into the cloud if the net goes down.

[elsiegee40]

No server at all? How do they do the relevant monitoring of Internet activity by the little cherubs under their care as required by the DfE?

 

http://www.edugeek.net/forums/e-safety/171051-online-safety-within-keeping-children-safe-education-2016-published-26-5-16-a.html

[elsiegee40]

Well lets start with a failover internet connection... scary thought going fully into the cloud if the net goes down.

 

And a very fast connection on both.

[timbo343]

Well lets start with a failover internet connection... scary thought going fully into the cloud if the net goes down.

 

Have to agree on that too. Thats the most single point of failure. Do you have a full-on backup line or just a "get me by" backup line.

[3s-gtech]

Step 1: costs. Step 2: backups and availability of such. Step 3: check the costs again. Step 4: get the best and most resilient internet connection possible. Step 5: pray it doesn't go down.

 

Comparing costs of what we currently have, to a resilient cloud hosted solution, it would be massively more expensive to shift over. We have a great number of servers and services though.

 

Can imaging be done with cloud servers?

[dobsonl]

@3s-gtech when you say costs, have you got any recommended providers? I know it's gonna cost them a small fortune for just the basic services (files, sims etc) let alone when we start to move on with all the others that we provide.

[3s-gtech]

Sadly not. It's not something I can even look into being in rural Wales - our net access is not reliable enough (though it's fast when working properly). Start with Microsoft Azure services, and talk to Capita about SIMS hosting.

[pcstru]

Hi Guys & Girls,

 

So the inevitable conversation raised its head today, I thought I had done so well to avoid it for over 6 years! You probably know roughly how it goes...

 

Business manager today has said that to him it makes sense for us to have everything (and I mean everything!) in the cloud... Apparently he was at a conference yesterday and spoke to a free school and they don't have a single server in there school!

Ah, yes, the Amish School. I heard there had been an escape ...

Currently looking at moving mail to office 365 from exchange, but beyond that I really don't know how to go about dealing with files - there's probably about 1tb worth of user files (not including settings & profiles) along with another 1tb in shared files, or even how do you manage computers to give everyone software and allowing them to login on computers as we can't afford for a one to one device ration.

Could you could use Sharepoint for files? It is possible to map document libraries as drives. Sounds like you are already up with the times.

Thanks in advance for any help or pointers

It is worth pointing out that even if it can be done, change costs time, effort and usually cash. It also usually involves different risks. Even if the destination is not fantasy, it is not what you have now. Perhaps you both need to visit the school and see how they make it work in practice. Maybe they boast of no servers but their IT provision is actually ... pants. You need the facts!

[free780]

You can have an upstream proxy. Or integrated with a firewall. Though a total cloud school isn't going to save a lot of money.

You always get something like printing where you need a on prem server.

[FN-GM]

You always get something like printing where you need a on prem server.

 

The new PaperCut you don't. It can be configured so the print jobs don't pass through the servers.

[dobsonl]

I think printing for us would actually be alright as a virtual machine in somewhere like azure with a site to site link in place, my bigger concern is user data & sims I think.

 

I'm just not sure how using things like final cut over a Internet connection no matter how quick the speed on the connection is just going to be asking for trouble.

[jmak]

You can have an upstream proxy. Or integrated with a firewall. Though a total cloud school isn't going to save a lot of money.

You always get something like printing where you need a on prem server.

Google cloud print? Our Ricoh mfps can do that....

 

 

It is worth pointing out that even if it can be done, change costs time, effort and usually cash. It also usually involves different risks. Even if the destination is not fantasy, it is not what you have now. Perhaps you both need to visit the school and see how they make it work in practice. Maybe they boast of no servers but their IT provision is actually ... pants. You need the facts!

 

^^But most of all this^^

 

Cloud is not necessarily worse, but trying to replicate everything you currently have and put it in the cloud is unlikely to go well. You can achieve similar (possibly better) results using cloud services, but it will be a different experience for users. And the cost of disruption while the change goes through shouldn't be ignored.

 

The old maxim holds true: you can at most get two from good, fast and cheap, but you'll never get all three.

[winng]

I had the same conversation myself yesterday with my SBM. Excited about what may be possible but also pragmatic about how it will really work. And allegedly save us money, so sayeth the gospel at the conference...

[Achandler]

The biggets issue that currently stops this is the reliance on an Internet connection. Often Leased Lines are as much as server licensing and server hardware replacement costs over a period. To go fully into the cloud you need 2 leased lines (hoepfully that would be fast enough) but probably from two different providers, one using Virgin, the other BT. As soon as you put that price in, it just isn't viable yet.

[Oaktech]

As far as I'm concerned, cloud school IS a possibility.

 

However, I believe at present it can only be done in places with readily available, affordable gigabit main/100mb fail over internet connections (such as the City Fibre enabled GigabitCities) and where BYOD, chromebooks or 1:1 solutions are in use. My thinking is that these devices are not deigned to need specialist imaging and they don't require any significant local background admin that cannot be done in the cloud by GAFE or MDM.

 

My gut feeling is that it's not practical/economical to move a traditional school windows network into the cloud.

[jmak]

Completely agree with this; you need a backup connection. One comment: In a previous job I worked for a provider. Some of our customers took the approach of going to multiple suppliers. It's not always the best option - a single supplier can offer a guarantee that the lines are diverse end to end. It's actually much more difficult for multiple suppliers to offer that as often back haul is shared. Not impossible - just something to be aware of when ordering. If you don't check, the first you'll know is when both lines go down at the same time.

[CamelMan]

I can see it being a viable practice for Curric. in the next few years - O365 / Gafe/ Whatever comes next on Chromebook / Tablet devices. You would still need an onside curric server on site if you want specialist machines for art / dt etc. Very fast, reliable connection + backup link essential. Majority of what students do (here at least) is web access, word, excel and powerpoint - all can be replaced by cloud.

 

For the "business" side of the school I cant see it currently being a replacement just yet due to the packages being used and the impact on the school if the link goes down. If the teacher cant get documents they can go back to chalk and talk. If the MIS system is unavailable then you may need to close due to fire regs, registers etc.

 

(BTW we don't have a Curric / admin split Im just talking concepts).

[MkII]

What is the local tech support at that example school I wonder. If their support is external that would eliminate those immediate practical issues. Remote desktop sessions for database intensive applications would be fine, aka hosted SIMS. Beefy local processing power for intensive media applications and then enough bandwidth to save them... would be dependent on the schools use, the applications own demand, the numbers using the link at any one time and the quality of the line.

[Sagima]

I've ben asked to plan this as well. A backup internet connection is a must, but then here it is considered a must now. The trick in saving money and getting increased performance seems to be that if it is in the cloud you work in the cloud sort of like byod/thin client stuff.

No downloading/uploading things all of the time - use remoteapp/webapps/web pages (rather than client-based software) to access the data directly and just have the https/rdp traffic flowing backwards and forwards as much as possible.

 

So far I've planned the relocation of AD, Mail and Storage using Azure/O365. There doesn't appear to be quite as easy total migratyion to AWs or Google but Microsoft seem to offer almost everything I could want.

From what I've seen it doesn't seem you get internet through Azure - you would still have a firewall,filter and dhcp server (could be one box) onsite. My plan also included a replica fileserver and a DPM box to perform our own backups of critical stuff.

I think I could dispose of almost everything else other than the network infrastructure (wired and wiress) itself and there are certainly cloud based wifi controllers in the world so that pretty much leaves switches. With some investment in a meshing wifi network even they could be almost completely done away with.

As you would basically end up with thin clients at the school end (or byod - browser and remoteapp is all they need) the savings in the school client base is potentially huge.

 

Printing might be a sticking point - there would need to be a push to working nearly fully electronically.

 

The main problem seems to be transition which I don't think I could do in less than 5 years from where I am now.

The big cost looks like it would be remoteapp but its cost would seem to be entirely offset in the much cheaper PCs that could be bought if that was being used

[mavhc]

But you already own servers. Paying for someone else's server is silly. Also you already own a network, why pay for someone else's network too?

 

There are no clouds inside, if you have a lot of people going outside you might want clouds.

 

I'd just go "oh, that's interesting, wonder how much they pay for internet that's as fast and reliable as our network, I'll find out!" and 2 weeks later "It's 10k/month, when shall I order it? Oh and we'll need to pay £x/user/month to replace things we already own. BTW, why did you want clouds again?"

[elsiegee40]

But you already own servers. Paying for someone else's server is silly. Also you already own a network, why pay for someone else's network too?

 

Because those servers are in desperate need of upgrade? (Among other reasons)

[Sagima]

Don't dump equipment you have just migrate whatever it is when it needs replacing. a 5 year plan should enable that.

[mavhc]

100% cloud is the issue, that's obviously stupid. You should be moving things that are better cloudy to clouds. Email obviously, as that's free and annoying.

 

Files? Does anyone like their cloud file system? Onedrive/Google drive are for consumers, enterprise stuff costs lots of money, sharepoint has always sucked and will always suck in the future. If 80% of your file access isn't from within the building, might be faster.

 

Printing photos is slow enough on wifi already, no need to slow it down even more.

 

Move complex database stuff to cloud so they can look after their badly written software, MIS etc, you're paying them for updates anyway. Of course they're mostly terrible and don't support oauth or sso, but that's their support costs now.

 

Log your server bandwidth usage, see how fast internet you'd need, and how often it's down, 4 9s maybe, how much will you pay extra for that availability. Don't forget to multiply by the provider's availability rating.

[Sagima]

Files? Does anyone like their cloud file system? Onedrive/Google drive are for consumers, enterprise stuff costs lots of money, .

 

From my initial investigations (and they seemed to correspond to an aazure storage post I read on here a while ago) it looks like a 10TB fileserver might cost more than 10TB of Azure storage (onedrive is a bit of a pain). Although to be honest it's not a huge difference. Substantially easier to expand as well so there's no need to pay for the space until you actually need it rather than having to build in expansion into the server you buy.