BSF ICT Contracts Awarded

[wesley]

Litherland in Sefton is going to Northgate, I got my contracting out meeting this week.

[jayemm]

 

This begs the question, why haven't other authorities with similar deals not gone down the same route ? why do they have one provider for council IT and another for schools under BSF ? Tim warren of liverpool appears to answer this question...

 

I know this was mentioned a while ago, but I work in an LA that has a Joint Venture with BT, and has done for several years.

 

There always has been an ICT element relating to schools. In the form of WAN, internet connections and some central services such as email and antivirus amongst other. They also offer a procurement service to try to benefit from economies of scale.

 

However this supposed utopia is not always the case. Schools do not all want the same equipment, they have different levels of expertise and investment and other things which I cannot mention on a public forum.

 

It appears that my LA realise that this is not the preferred option for BSF to utilise the 'managed' service already offered and it is offered not mandatory. Some schools are fully integrated with the service using their AD etc. Others are as minimally involved as possible merely using the service as an ISP.

 

I would have hoped that my LA would be share schools concerns with a managed service given that we already use one and we can see the pitfalls, however they also need the money to rebuild so why would they. Interestingly their stance appears to be, X school wants this level of integration, y school wants this level and that is what the MSP will have to deal with. Similar to our existing provision but not from the JV company.

 

My own view is that no provider would want to be the MSP in this scenario as the costs would be huge to provide some services to some and more to others. They will want to do the same thing in every school to minimise costs and maximise profit.

[ROBOCOP]

Posted this on another thread but I suppose it should be here - Northgate and Balfour Beatty have won the Blackburn/Bolton BSF. RM won't be happy.

 

Makes Northgate a favourite on Hull BSF now.

[Butuz]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8268116.stm

 

Anyone noticed this? I onder how many BSF projects have fallen foul of all of our fraudulant building companies.... probably all of them!

 

Shocking that they all just get a small fine - they should be getting prison.

 

Butuz

[ROBOCOP]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8268116.stm

 

Anyone noticed this? I onder how many BSF projects have fallen foul of all of our fraudulant building companies.... probably all of them!

 

Shocking that they all just get a small fine - they should be getting prison.

 

Butuz

 

I wouldn't call £18m for Kier a 'small fine' and the others aren't far short of that either - not sure how some of the firms will stay afloat if they have to pay in full and where that leaves councils who have contracts with them.

[localzuk]

I wouldn't call £18m for Kier a 'small fine' and the others aren't far short of that either - not sure how some of the firms will stay afloat if they have to pay in full and where that leaves councils who have contracts with them.

 

Kier group have a market cap of £413Mill at the moment, £18m is a drop in the ocean.

[ROBOCOP]

Kier group have a market cap of £413Mill at the moment, £18m is a drop in the ocean.

 

Not sure where you got that figure or its relevance but I do know their net profit fell 66% to £16.1 million this year and that is before the £18m fine was imposed.

 

Despite such firms being awarded projects with high capital values they carry high debts in terms of working capital as most projects can run for several years before they are paid and even then their margins aren't that big anymore (between 5-10%).

[localzuk]

Not sure where you got that figure or its relevance but I do know their net profit fell 66% to £16.1 million this year and that is before the £18m fine was imposed.

 

Despite such firms being awarded projects with high capital values they carry high debts in terms of working capital as most projects can run for several years before they are paid and even then their margins aren't that big anymore (between 5-10%).

 

That value is the value of their business in terms of their shares. ie. there are £413Mill of shares out, owned by shareholders. (Company Comparison - Google Finance should not focus on their profits - as this is simply a reflection of how well they did this year. And considering this is a recession year, and they made a profit, I'd be happy if I were them.

 

Also remember, they are being fined for doing illegal things. So it doesn't matter if it damages their profits - they shouldn't have done it. No-one should feel sorry for companies that screwed tax payers out of millions of pounds. They wouldn't have been making such profits if they had been operating legitimately in the first place.

[ROBOCOP]

You can't value a business in terms of shares as that's only the market value at any point in time and regardless the company does not own the shares so cannot use them to generate capital to pay such fines - all they can do is reduce or stop any annual dividend to shareholders. The only available money once all other liabilities have been met is the profit - or of course extending company debt.

 

I'm not defending them - just saying that companies such as this may fold due to such high fines and in the long run this does not benefit anyone least of all their employees.

[torledo]

You can't value a business in terms of shares as that's only the market value at any point in time and regardless the company does not own the shares so cannot use them to generate capital to pay such fines - all they can do is reduce or stop any annual dividend to shareholders. The only available money once all other liabilities have been met is the profit - or of course extending company debt.

 

I'm not defending them - just saying that companies such as this may fold due to such high fines and in the long run this does not benefit anyone least of all their employees.

 

that sounds like a resonable point. I'm no business expert, but i too wouldn't rely on maket cap as an accurate guage of how a fine might affect a companies' cash flow or ability to access working capital.

[pritchardavid]

Any one heard who is taking the thurrock area? i work in South Ockendon at the Ockendon School

 

Would like to know who is doing this area, or has it not be decided yet?

[ROBOCOP]

Any one heard who is taking the thurrock area? i work in South Ockendon at the Ockendon School

 

Would like to know who is doing this area, or has it not be decided yet?

 

Bidding is just starting as far as I am aware.

[Face-Man]

Equitix/Dell are the prefered bidder in cambridgeshire - Fenland.

 

equitix Ltd.

[Guest theeldergeek]

It has been noted by a few people (including their rivals) that RM are usually only winning where they already have a significant presence

 

Our school has pretty much no RM involvement (I really don't understand who does, to be honest) but we do get our Internet through SEGFL, is that RM?

 

What I don't also get, is whether or not - as it seems RM or anyone has has little or no involvement in our school - is whether BSF will ever actually affect me?

 

Can schools choose? That is, do they have an option to say, actually, we like the way our ICT is being run and we want to keep it that way, or not? I guess I don't really understand what BSF is.

 

As I say, our school seems to be so very ICT independent apart from SEGFL, I'm just wondering when, if, or how, BSF will affect me?

 

Sorry to be such a numpty, but it's not something that has been spoken about at all here, so I do feel a bit in the dark.

[localzuk]

Our school has pretty much no RM involvement (I really don't understand who does, to be honest) but we do get our Internet through SEGFL, is that RM?

 

What I don't also get, is whether or not - as it seems RM or anyone has has little or no involvement in our school - is whether BSF will ever actually affect me?

 

Can schools choose? That is, do they have an option to say, actually, we like the way our ICT is being run and we want to keep it that way, or not? I guess I don't really understand what BSF is.

 

As I say, our school seems to be so very ICT independent apart from SEGFL, I'm just wondering when, if, or how, BSF will affect me?

 

Sorry to be such a numpty, but it's not something that has been spoken about at all here, so I do feel a bit in the dark.

 

If the school is included in BSF, and they want building work doing using BSF funding, then they have to be included in the ICT side of things - unless they can come up with an alternative case for keeping it in house (as far as I'm aware, no-one has succeeded doing this as yet?). So, the issue is - the BSF groups dangle the big golden carrot of new buildings in front of the school and they mostly fall into line.

[beeswax]

As I say, our school seems to be so very ICT independent apart from SEGFL, I'm just wondering when, if, or how, BSF will affect me?

 

Sorry to be such a numpty, but it's not something that has been spoken about at all here, so I do feel a bit in the dark.

 

BSF is an LEA-wide objective and several consortiums are invited to tender for a particular LEA's business. Each consortium consists of several companies, usually something like a building company, It Services, possibly grounds maintainance etc. The winning bidder then gets to build/refurbish the schools and provide other services such as IT support, this part of the consortium is known as the Managed Service Provider (MSP) and I would imagine this would affect you most directly, as part of the managed service the company needs people to maintain the school networks etc. and you will be TUPEd over (though not in all cases, depending on your role in school and if the head and governors feel you're too valuable to loose) to work for the MSP. You will not necessarily work in the same school as you do currently.

THe BSF provider receives rent for 25-30 years, depending on the deal struck with the LEA, at the end of which time the school then reverts back to the LEA, and that's one of the ways companies make money from this process. The MSP receives a sum of money from each school's budget of £x per pupil per year (this amount varies from LEA to LEA and depends on the deals each individual LEA has struck with their provider) to provide IT support.

Each contract lasts for 5 years, at the end of which period the LEA can go for another provider if they are not satisfied with the service provided by the current provider. I was told by our LEA BSF negotiator that we wouldn't be taken back by the schools but would remain in stasis and TUPE over to the new provider, which begs several big questions.

Teachers and classroom assistants, admin staff and the like are not going to be TUPEd over, this is mainly about IT staff.

 

BSF is a huge subject and I suggest you search the BSF forums here. HTH

[Guest theeldergeek]

BSF is an LEA-wide objective and several consortiums are invited to tender for a particular LEA's business

 

But does, or rather is, an LEA obligated to farm out business this way? What if the LEA is happy with the way their ship is running, and doesn't feel it is necessary, or do they simply not get a choice?

 

I'm just very surprised that as I am in quite a large LEA (East Sussex) that nothing has happened, been spoken of or even indicated as going to happen.

 

I will certainly research the matter some more, and to be honest, so long as I still have a job, it matters not if I'm 'tuped' or otherwise, but the simple lack of information for my area is not particularly helpful.

[localzuk]

But does, or rather is, an LEA obligated to farm out business this way? What if the LEA is happy with the way their ship is running, and doesn't feel it is necessary, or do they simply not get a choice?

 

I'm just very surprised that as I am in quite a large LEA (East Sussex) that nothing has happened, been spoken of or even indicated as going to happen.

 

I will certainly research the matter some more, and to be honest, so long as I still have a job, it matters not if I'm 'tuped' or otherwise, but the simple lack of information for my area is not particularly helpful.

 

There are hundreds of LEAs in the UK, and each one may end up being part of multiple waves. According to the PfS/Teachernet sites, East Sussex was down as a Wave 10-12 LEA, and is now ranked 24 in priority.

 

And LEAs don't get to say no I don't think? I think it is an obligatory thing for them.

[jsnetman]

But does, or rather is, an LEA obligated to farm out business this way?

 

I know of at least one LA who bid for there own IT services (Newcastle) in partnership I think with dell or maybe it was northgate. I have been to some of the schools in the Newcastle authority and the IT staff are over the moon with the new setup. North Tyneside however seem already decided it has to be outsourced to an external company.

[broc]

I think Newcastle were lucky, as a wave 1 BSF Pathfinder LA they got through the process before Partnership for Schools had finished writing the rules......

 

As I understand it now, any LA can submit a bid to Partnership for Schools for BSF funding regardless of which wave they were in; if successful they will be awarded funds to rebuild/renovate schools, Partnership for Schools expect LAs to outsource their school ICT as part of their bid; in theory individual schools can opt out either by preparing a business case for funding to manage their ICT themselves (not as easy as it sounds) or by declining the BSF ICT funding, typically worth >£1450 per student. Few have gone down either route.....

 

Most ICT outsourcing has gone to the private sector, I believe a very small number of LAs have managed to follow Newcastle & come up with some form of joint LA/Private sector managed service solution but this seems to be generally frowned upon by Partnership for Schools.

 

If you dig deep enough into the BSF forum threads you will find discussions covering the hurdles schools have to jump over to get funding directly; basically Partnership for Schools do not want school ICT to remain under the direct control of schools .....

 

Just to add to the fun, many LAs are now discovering that the Govt is applying pressure on them to create academies as part of their BSF funding process.... those that don't agree to academies sometimes find it difficult to get BSF funding... if you understand what I mean

[karlieb]

But does, or rather is, an LEA obligated to farm out business this way? What if the LEA is happy with the way their ship is running, and doesn't feel it is necessary, or do they simply not get a choice?

 

I'm just very surprised that as I am in quite a large LEA (East Sussex) that nothing has happened, been spoken of or even indicated as going to happen.

 

I will certainly research the matter some more, and to be honest, so long as I still have a job, it matters not if I'm 'tuped' or otherwise, but the simple lack of information for my area is not particularly helpful.

 

 

East Sussex CC are running a 'One School Pathfinder' project at Bexhill High School ahead of their full BSF programme which is still some way off (as mentioned Wave 10-12).

 

So for now there will be no change at your school.

Edited January 28, 2010 by karlieb

[Rydra]

Luton has been won by Civica, work started summer 2009

[Face-Man]

Somerset has gone to RM as preferred bidder

 

From chairs to networks RM is providing a bottom up solution for Somerset BSF

 

pppFocus.com

 

and essex

 

http://www.rm.com/Company/PressOffice/PressReleaseDetail.asp?cref=PRR1623157

[oxide54]

Our school was built in 2003, opened september 2004 and we pay rent to the company that built the building for the next 25 years.

 

We had a managed it service for the first 4 years and it was rubbish, then they were removed and shortly after I came in,

 

do we have to worry about BSF???

[tmcd35]

From my line manager and Deputy Head -

 

You onle have to take the managed IT service if you are a 100% rebuild. Since we are only a partial rebuild (80/15/5 - I think) we don't have to take the managed IT server. We prefer you working for us, thanks!

 

Sweet!