2015 Election

[sonofsanta]

The problem I find with all of this is it's smoke and mirrors, and largely the public fall for it. They think Labour, or any party for that matter, stand for something, because they say they do, but their actions say different.

 

This is the saddest thing - they really are all but indistinguishable these days. DRIP was depressing on a number of counts, but most particularly the way all three party leaders agreed beforehand and behind closed doors to support it and whip their parties. Where was the debate? Where was the party standing up for our rights? What is the point in having all this fuss if they all just agree with each other anyway?

[MkII]

The problem I find with all of this is it's smoke and mirrors, and largely the public fall for it. They think Labour, or any party for that matter, stand for something, because they say they do, but their actions say different.

 

On the subject of 'wasted' votes... often politicians take those votes as 'a message' (they say), so casting a vote where you actually believe isn't wasted.

 

This chart at politicalcompass.org seems pretty accurate to me.

 

 

Loads of people seem to be in the bottom left quadrant, but our 'choices' are limited to the upper right quadrant.

[zag]

If too many parties were in the green bottom left quadrant we would be bankrupt

[Garacesh]

I'm going to form a Right-Wing Libertarian party. We're sorely lacking on those. Who's with me? Edited April 1, 2015 by Garacesh

[Bezwick]

If too many parties were in the green bottom left quadrant we would be bankrupt

 

I already thought we were. Which is why so many people are using food banks.

[Seb1780]

I'm going to form a Right-Wing Libertarian party. We're sorely lacking on those. Who's with me?

 

AKA The Republican Party - you're welcome to it!

[sparkeh]

what would happen if a party leader lost their seat would they still be elligable to be pm?

@sted interesting question. As I understand it the role of PM is not actually defined by any law but rather a convention that the sovereign asks the leader of the majority party (or coalition) to form a government. If the leader of that party is not an MP then technically (s)he could be asked to be PM. Though in reality this wouldn't happen I guess.

 

Interesting read on the role of PM http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_Minister_of_the_United_Kingdom

[Diello]

AKA The Republican Party - you're welcome to it!

 

The Republican Party aren't Libertarian! They're more controlling than the rest!

[Andrew_C]

If too many parties were in the green bottom left quadrant we would be bankrupt

But a country with morals where I'd be happy to live.

 

I think that is the one thing that really shows the differences between the UK's Left and Right. One side (and the Libs) believes in supporting ALL the population, including the weakest. The other in ensuring the weakest stay weak, and make them pay for their privileged lifestyle.

[pcstru]

If too many parties were in the green bottom left quadrant we would be bankrupt

We are bankrupt. We are bankrupt because we wallowed in greed and put profit before the good of people. We believed in "markets" (free and efficient) and we cut out the red tape that those clever people who make all the money said was holding them back. No amount of benefits scroungers will ever cost us as much as the greed of the bankers and having to bail them out from the consequences of their tricksy little "instruments". Year after year we seem to see large corporates chasing profits and if they are not indulging in outright fraud, they cut so many corners that your lasagne leaves you croaky and horse. With the billion pound tax dodgers we say "oh well, they are just trying to maximise their profits - companies will be companies" whereas to a single mother just trying to make ends meet on some zero hours contract we say "well, yes, you will have to spend 27 hours a week filling in claims forms because we couldn't possibly give you a penny more than you deserve lest you bankrupt the country with your "food bank instruments" and send us all into another spiral of austerity and cuts.

 

I'd probably vote for a Socialist, if I could find one. As it is, I haven't quite decided who I won't vote for.

[GrumbleDook]

We are not bankrupt because we still have lines of available credit and the debt we do have we are servicing ... it is debatable whether we have sufficient assets to cover the existing debt (plus interest) but theoretically we do have enough to keep some folk happy ...

 

It really is that simple. As soon as someone calls in our debt or we stop making payments then we would be bankrupt.

[Garacesh]

We are bankrupt. We are bankrupt because we wallowed in greed and put profit before the good of people. We believed in "markets" (free and efficient) and we cut out the red tape that those clever people who make all the money said was holding them back. No amount of benefits scroungers will ever cost us as much as the greed of the bankers and having to bail them out from the consequences of their tricksy little "instruments". Year after year we seem to see large corporates chasing profits and if they are not indulging in outright fraud, they cut so many corners that your lasagne leaves you croaky and horse. With the billion pound tax dodgers we say "oh well, they are just trying to maximise their profits - companies will be companies" whereas to a single mother just trying to make ends meet on some zero hours contract we say "well, yes, you will have to spend 27 hours a week filling in claims forms because we couldn't possibly give you a penny more than you deserve lest you bankrupt the country with your "food bank instruments" and send us all into another spiral of austerity and cuts..

 

Whilst I don't agree with "we are bankrupt" (because we're not), everything else is spot on.

[pcstru]

We are not bankrupt because we still have lines of available credit and the debt we do have we are servicing ... it is debatable whether we have sufficient assets to cover the existing debt (plus interest) but theoretically we do have enough to keep some folk happy ...

As a nation we are not legally bankrupt. We are morally and ethically bankrupt when we allow (encourage) politicians to put profit before people. I thought in the context, the meaning I intended was reasonably clear.

 

We effectively bought the banks into public ownership because they would have been legally bankrupt had we, the people, asked to withdraw our money - or even a fraction of it. The greed of the banks led to public exposure for banks liabilities of around £1.2 trillion in 2009, a sum which represented around 40% of GDP. For those that believe in private enterprises and small government over public services because government is inefficient at doing those things, please find some examples of public run enterprises which have come anywhere close to plunging the whole country into a whole decade of cuts and austerity to service debts incurred by the banks. British Rail might have had trouble serving up a decent coffee but at worst public enterprise merely demonstrates incompetence, private companies often transition beyond that into strong arm tactics (witness Tesco's bleeding suppliers for payments to get stock into their stores) or even outright fraud (the financial services industry seems to be quite unable to stop itself, we have become almost immune to news of scandals from the FS industry).

Edited April 2, 2015 by pcstru

[tmcd35]

Ideologically, like most of us here it seems, I am closest to the Greens. That said, reading their manifesto fills me with dread. Some of their policies make the Monster Raving Loony Party seem sensible. As someone else pointed out - Tree Hugging Loonies.

 

In terms of policy it scares me how much I do agree with UKIP, but only for one or two individual policies. Taken as a whole they seem only slightly more palatable than the Tories.

 

Taking my political persuasion and the policies being put forward I should really be voting Lib Dem, as I did last time. But this time I feel voting Lib Dem is giving the Tories the keys to Downing Street for another five years. Unlike last time, I'm left feeling it a two party choice this time. Labour or Tory. Having lived through the Thatcher/Major years and now the Cameron years, I really do feel the country was at it's best during the Blair years. Things like the bedroom tax have been a stark reminder of what exactly a Tory government means, and if anything they have lurched further right over the past 5 years, while Labour have pulled back a little towards the center ground.

 

So, I'll be voting Labour, because I think it's what the country needs at this time. Hopefully in the future we'd be given the chance at proportional representation again, we royally mucked that up in 2010, and can move to a system were smaller parties have more power and voting for convictions isn't seen as a wasted vote. I do hope the likes of Greens, Lib Dem and UKIP do better this time and we get another hung parliament, that if Labour could form the minority or coalition government would be the ideal outcome. But I think the risk of another 5 years of Tory governance is too great to do my part in voting for that outcome - like I did last time.

 

In terms of personal ideology, I think we are a capitalist nation and I do believe that capitalism is a necessary evil. However it need counterbalancing by democratic socialist governments, a conservative party is the worst outcome for a capitalist nation (see America). I think that's probably why China have been doing so well economically of late (not that I want us to try an emulate China).

[pcstru]

I think we are a capitalist nation and I do believe that capitalism is a necessary evil.

I'd probably agree - although I might even claim that it is not capitalism that is evil, it is the modern idea of a a kind of "libertarian capitalism" - devoid of any regulation other than the notional free and efficient market, that causes problems. Even Adam Smith thought that markets required regulation - a truly efficient market is only a theoretical construct, they don't exist in reality. Perhaps if we expended the same effort we put into regulating and inspecting schools, into financial services, we would all be reaping the rewards OUR money should be buying us. Funny how the right seems to so like one, but not the other.

[speckytecky]

I'd be extremely interested @tmcd if you could offer a more specific critique of the Green policies you find fill you with horror? Unfortunately the only Manifesto they currently have available is the one that ran for the Euro Elections. The 2015 General Election manifesto unfortunately isn't being released for another ten days. The policies are proposed by the membership and written with oversight of The New Economics Foundation.

 

Interesting that you pledge to vote Labour. Surely the current Labour Party is far removed from the Socalist Labour Party that existed a couple of decades or so ago. Indeed personally I see little difference nowadays in any of the Right of Centre partieswhich I see as right of centre from the left to right the Lib Dems, Labour, Conservatives and UKIP.

 

Do you really want Ed Milliband as Prime Minister?

 

Ideologically, like most of us here it seems, I am closest to the Greens. That said, reading their manifesto fills me with dread. Some of their policies make the Monster Raving Loony Party seem sensible. As someone else pointed out - Tree Hugging Loonies.

 

In terms of policy it scares me how much I do agree with UKIP, but only for one or two individual policies. Taken as a whole they seem only slightly more palatable than the Tories.

 

Taking my political persuasion and the policies being put forward I should really be voting Lib Dem, as I did last time. But this time I feel voting Lib Dem is giving the Tories the keys to Downing Street for another five years. Unlike last time, I'm left feeling it a two party choice this time. Labour or Tory. Having lived through the Thatcher/Major years and now the Cameron years, I really do feel the country was at it's best during the Blair years. Things like the bedroom tax have been a stark reminder of what exactly a Tory government means, and if anything they have lurched further right over the past 5 years, while Labour have pulled back a little towards the center ground.

 

So, I'll be voting Labour, because I think it's what the country needs at this time. Hopefully in the future we'd be given the chance at proportional representation again, we royally mucked that up in 2010, and can move to a system were smaller parties have more power and voting for convictions isn't seen as a wasted vote. I do hope the likes of Greens, Lib Dem and UKIP do better this time and we get another hung parliament, that if Labour could form the minority or coalition government would be the ideal outcome. But I think the risk of another 5 years of Tory governance is too great to do my part in voting for that outcome - like I did last time.

 

In terms of personal ideology, I think we are a capitalist nation and I do believe that capitalism is a necessary evil. However it need counterbalancing by democratic socialist governments, a conservative party is the worst outcome for a capitalist nation (see America). I think that's probably why China have been doing so well economically of late (not that I want us to try an emulate China).

Edited April 2, 2015 by speckytecky

[tmcd35]

I'd be extremely interested @tmcd if you could offer a more specific critique of the Green policies you find fill you with horror?

 

refreshing my memory from their policy site (The Green Party | Home), They talk of think like the "Citizens Income" to be paid to everyone regardless of welfare need, and "Restoritive Justice" instead of retribution. From what I understand of their ideas (which admittedly is pretty minimal) they want create a world were no one needs to work unless they want to, and rape and murder are fine so long as you are really sorry for doing it (I'm probably over egging it a bit). They seem just a little too socialist for my liking, almost the acceptable face of communism which always sounds fine in theory but never really works (or at least non of the examples of the last century have worked without failing or moving towards capitalism).

 

 

 

Do you really want Ed Milliband as Prime Minister?

 

I agree Labour is very far removed from the socialist left and indeed a little too far right of center. But since the choice in PM is realistically only between Ed and Dave - yes, I'd much prefer Ed and given how far right Dave has taken the Tories, I'd sooner not trust another 5 years to him. I'm voting for what I think is best for the country, and as much as Ed is not ideal, I think the party he represents is a better bet for us right now in terms of the executive. If LD has any real chance at the top job I'd happily vote them instead.

 

For me, this time, it's about getting the Tories out. It's a horrible closed minded self serving two party system we've go to play with.

[elsiegee40]

Just watched the debate. I hope there is a SNP candidate in my Kent constituency

[Seb1780]

As a man may I apologise for the performance of my gender on this evening's debate - women FTW

[gaz350b]

What I don't understand is why cameron and the tories are getting credit for us all being better off? Which is total BS as it's price of oil which surely should take the credit!??

 

I'm pretty sure that if it wasn't a con/lib government then cuts would have been far deeper without them.

[sparkeh]

I can see why Cameron wanted to avoid these debates: he looks tired and diminished.

 

However the real loser was Clegg, the 'honest peace broker' 'bit' looks broken now.

[pcstru]

refreshing my memory from their policy site (The Green Party | Home), They talk of think like the "Citizens Income" to be paid to everyone regardless of welfare need, and "Restoritive Justice" instead of retribution. From what I understand of their ideas (which admittedly is pretty minimal) they want create a world were no one needs to work unless they want to, and rape and murder are fine so long as you are really sorry for doing it (I'm probably over egging it a bit). They seem just a little too socialist for my liking, almost the acceptable face of communism which always sounds fine in theory but never really works (or at least non of the examples of the last century have worked without failing or moving towards capitalism).

 

Citizens income is a really interesting idea which, if applied in place of all benefits including pensions, could result in savings. At the level of unemployment benefits, it eliminates the sudden dips in income that landing a job can result in which can result in disincentives to work (no one would be worse off just because they take a job). I'd like to see some hard numbers, but I don't see any reason to dismiss it out of hand. Restorative justice is already playing a part in the criminal justice system and while possibly not always appropriate, seems to give good results in many cases and has been shown to lead to significant savings and reductions in re-offending

[flyinghaggis]

I can see why Cameron wanted to avoid these debates: he looks tired and diminished.

 

However the real loser was Clegg, the 'honest peace broker' 'bit' looks broken now.

 

Yeah, the problem with his 'party of the middle strategy' is that is that it makes him look like he'll immediately form another coalition with whichever party has the highest largest number of seats. Given his performance over the last 4 years that just means that nobody will want to vote for him! Came across looking tired, dejected and like he had no ideas of his own. I can't help but feel his party would have fared better if they'd formed a minority government with Labour last time. It seemed like such an odd thing when he signed up to a coalition with Cameron. I suspect this time he might find himself in a position where his party has so few seats he'll be lucky if he can play Kingmaker again. He might struggle to hang onto his own seat....

 

I'd actually expected Farage to fare better than he did as he's usually quite slick when it comes to public speaking and playing an audience. He seemed oddly out on a limb constantly repeating his 'leave the EU and everything will be fine' mantra. Then he threw in the comment about HIV positive immigrants and everyone else on the panel was like 'I'm not touching that topic with a 20ft barge pole'! I think he misjudged the general mood quite badly and could definitely have done better.

 

Milliband, after doing quite well at the last Paxman interview IMO, looked like he'd spent a bit too long staring into the camera trying to appear sincere. Cameron did look a bit like he was on autopilot and came across quite well but appeared to be going through the motions.

 

If anything the person that came across best from the whole group was Nicola Sturgeon though I disagree with half of the SNP's policies. She looked assured, polished and on point the entire time.

 

Lots of conflicting viewpoints and opinions from all the MP's on the whole debt/deficit issue though. Camerons saying we've got it under control but we need to carry on cutting. Milliband's saying we could spend/tax a bit more and still be fine. Farage saying we haven't even made an impact on the deficit and are still overspending. Then a huge swathe of the more left wing parties saying we don't need to worry about it and that we should stop austerity.

 

I can't quite work out who who's right on that one. Need to go and find some figures but whether they're make any sense to me is another question! Does anyone have any links/etc that could provide an insight into the debt/deficit and whether the last 5 years of cuts have actually achieved anything? Plus, presumably a lot of the debt will be related to bailing out the banks in 2008 after the financial crash then?

 

How much of it was down to Labour allegedly overspending vs global financial events that were outwith their control?

Edited April 3, 2015 by flyinghaggis

[pcstru]

Lots of conflicting viewpoints and opinions from all the MP's on the whole debt/deficit issue though. Camerons saying we've got it under control but we need to carry on cutting. Milliband's saying we could spend/tax a bit more and still be fine. Farage saying we haven't even made an impact on the deficit and are still overspending. Then a huge swathe of the more left wing parties saying we don't need to worry about it and that we should stop austerity.

 

I can't quite work out who who's right on that one. Need to go and find some figures but whether they're make any sense to me is another question! Does anyone have any links/etc that could provide an insight into the debt/deficit and whether the last 5 years of cuts have actually achieved anything? Plus, presumably a lot of the debt will be related to bailing out the banks in 2008 after the financial crash then?

The Wikipedia article on UK national debt might be a good start. I don't think it is correct to say the left wing don't think we need to worry about it, their strategy is to use economic growth to minimise the impact of debt by making it shrink in relation to GDP. That's not unreasonable but the question is what growth do you need, can that be achieved and are there any risks (typically inflation).

 

Thinking a little on peoples general attitude of "my vote doesn't make a difference", the prospect of a hung parliament means that small parties can make a huge difference. This is a time when it is much more likely that your vote does influence the outcome. It is also wrong (imo) to think of the vote as being useful only in electing an MP. A vote sends a message and parties will try and adopt policies to appeal to those voters. So (say) large turnout for the greens will see green policies sprout up in other parties.

[flyinghaggis]

UK debt and deficit: All you need to know - BBC News

 

There's, what seems like a decent. article on the BBC website here on the topic of the debt/deficit.

 

As usual with economics it sounds like it very much depends on your perspective. They could all be referring to differently adjusted figures/stats regarding the deficit so potentially could all be right/wrong

Edited April 3, 2015 by flyinghaggis