Installing SIMS

[vikpaw]

A good time to re-iterate a warning on giving advice to people on here. There are a number of people who come here seeking advice who are not authorised to install SIMS so be careful.

Equally, I don't think there is a lot of bad advice on here. I don't recall people being told to give full access to shares and folders. If that is the case, please flag it. There are enough of us here to correct any omissions and point to the right places.

[Mcshammer_dj]

While I do think that the responsibility for the security of the shared folders lie with the network manager at a site it can be confusing know what access to folders is actually needed and where data actually lives.

 

When I looked on support net for permissions and folder permissions for SIMS .net I found this

Each user who is running SIMS .net must have the 'Full Control' permission to the following files and folders:

 

 

 

 

- C:\Documents and Settings\Username\Local Settings\Application Data\Temp - OR - C:\Users\Username\AppData\Local\Temp

 

 

- C:\Windows\Temp

 

 

- My Documents

 

 

- C:\Windows\SIMS.ini

 

 

- SIMS .net folder (usually located in C:\Program Files\SIMS\)

 

 

On the SIMS Server, where the Setups directory is stored:

 

 

 

 

- S:\SIMS (where S:\ is the mapped folder)

 

This was in KB31300 -Workstations not automatically upgrading themselves after a SIMS update has been run on the server

[synaesthesia]

Don't even need that with solus3.

[sparkeh]

So a good summary to thread would be:

 

Capita need to review and update their documentation and inform their engineers and support partners as to good practice in installing Sims securely.

[Steve21]

If any Capita engineers have poorly installed software please raise a complaint and it will be investigated thoroughly and action taken.

 

But as I asked in the second post what is the Capita guidelines on this? If you're saying every school that has members of staff having access to S drive is wrong and should be complained about I think you'll get a flooded inbox

 

Is FullControl poor? is modify poor? is read poor? is not hidden poor? There has to be some guidelines you're saying Capita engineers are following and others aren't? (Yes I have my personal opinion on what is right and wrong as I'm sure lots do, but from Capita's point of view what is wrong/right?

 

Thanks,

Steve

[GREED]

I'm kinda airing what @matt40k has already said; Capita can and should be saying what is NEEDED by SIMS to operate. It is your network and your systems so it is up to you ultimately what should and should not be in place.

[sparkeh]

I'm kinda airing what @matt40k has already said; Capita can and should be saying what is NEEDED by SIMS to operate. It is your network and your systems so it is up to you ultimately what should and should not be in place.

I'm sure if the correct documentation/training was in place then everyone most people would follow it

[Ecclesbury]

I'm kinda airing what @matt40k has already said; Capita can and should be saying what is NEEDED by SIMS to operate. It is your network and your systems so it is up to you ultimately what should and should not be in place.

 

Even if you pay Capita to install it for you?

 

Do you think Capita are obliged to at least tell you that they have left things unrestricted if that is what they are doing when they install? Or is that something that you should check yourself regardless? I'm not talking about sensible practice, I mean from a contractual point of view.

 

I'm not insinuating anything, I'm genuinely curious.

 

This is actually a really interesting discussion.

[achedgy]

Well perhaps Capita, after insinuating incomplete information is available on edugeek, maybe should provide standard installation information and updates where people will see it (here) Not everyone has a supportnet user (not that that's a particularly nice site to navigate)

 

Just a thought..

 

And on the subject was speaking to a capita engineer but a few months ago, who insisted that S: drive was available for anyone using sims.net

[Ecclesbury]

Is there a distinction between system folders and folders created by the software itself?

 

I can understand your argument in relation to C drives of local client machines, but does the same hold true for the S:SIMS\ folders that are created during installation?

 

Didn't there used to be a SIMSPERM.bat file that gave users crazy access to users? Or was that just C drive permissions?

[matt40k]

I'm sure if the correct documentation/training was in place then everyone most people would follow it

 

You mean "Technicial Essentials - SIMS technology for Technicians" course

(Resource ID 23616 for anyone with permissions to Capita training material)

@Ecclesbury You'd hope things like non-standard permissions would be covered off in the handover! Like @PhilNeal, stick your hand up if it isn't else they won't know it ain't happening, they aren't mind readers!!

[Ecclesbury]

Well perhaps Capita, after insinuating incomplete information is available on edugeek, maybe should provide standard installation information and updates where people will see it (here) Not everyone has a supportnet user (not that that's a particularly nice site to navigate)

 

Just a thought..

 

And on the subject was speaking to a capita engineer but a few months ago, who insisted that S: drive was available for anyone using sims.net

 

I see what you mean. I've been trying to refrain from making the glib observation that Phil's first post states that engineers are "not installing SIMS correctly" implying that there is a "correct" way to do it. It seems to me that most posters are just asking what this correct way is.

[achedgy]

Indeed, I agree, please just give us easy access to the current correct information as to how to install. Very happy to follow the guidelines, but please provide them rather than bashing people for not doing it... Some of us are single technicians, who don't have the time to go digging for info every time...

[sparkeh]

You mean "Technicial Essentials - SIMS technology for Technicians" course

(Resource ID 23616 for anyone with permissions to Capita training material)

@Ecclesbury You'd hope things like non-standard permissions would be covered off in the handover! Like @PhilNeal, stick your hand up if it isn't else they won't know it ain't happening, they aren't mind readers!!

What I mean is there is clearly a training and documentation problem here as:

 

1) Capita technicians don't seem to know (or follow) the procedures that Phil seems to think are in place. I would be interested in knowing what people are told in the Capita Sims training courses and whether their own engineers get refresher training if things change?

2) There appears to be documentation on SupportNet telling informing instructing us to do things incorrectly.

 

Just seems to be a case of getting your own house in order before criticising others

 

As above perhaps @PhilNeal could post the proper documentation here so as to remove all doubt and address the misinformation that he feels is prevalent here?

 

Edit: In the interests of fairness in point 1 I can only refer to the anacdotes related here, not Capita engineers in general.

Edited December 12, 2014 by sparkeh

[Ecclesbury]

You'd hope things like non-standard permissions would be covered off in the handover! Like @PhilNeal, stick your hand up if it isn't else they won't know it ain't happening, they aren't mind readers!!

 

But if I'm reading @GREED 's post correctly, there would be no need to mention anything to Capita since they would have done everything they are obliged to do. And we're back to the same question, if you've paid Capita to install SIMS (and hence are probably not an expert at installing SIMS) is it fair to assume that they would have set appropriate permissions on the folder they have created? You and GREED appear to be saying (correct me if I'm wrong) that it is the network administrators responsibility to set these permissions so there would be nothing to complain to Capita about.

 

I think we might have wandered off the point a bit since I'm talking completely theoretically now. Our S drive it locked down pretty tight...and Phil has already said that Capita technicians shouldn't be leaving the S drive completely unlocked.

[matt40k]

The problem with just giving out information is it differs based on YOUR setup also the information gets out of date quickly, too often I've had schools using a 3 month old document to install SIMS which leads to problems as the information is already out of date. It isn't a question of following a document, its about learning a new process - do you have the time to learn something that'll you'd do once? Because the next time, you'll do it will be in 3+ years and what you learnt will be out of date. It generally takes a technician a week to move SIMS correctly, plus the time it takes the support teams\Capita to help work out the bugs - 1 week at minimum wage is £240.50 and I'd hope your on more money then that - you can pay a expert to move SIMS for that who keeps up-to-date and does hundreds of SIMS moves a year and will get the job done within a day with min fuss. If you're supporting a few schools like your feed primaries, by all means, go on the training and keep up to date. But for one school? Not sure the math adds up.

 

RE: No SupportNet login - not sure I quite get why, if you have a SIMS license, you have a login, so...

 

is it fair to assume that they would have set appropriate permissions on the folder they have created?

 

No. That's how problems occur. "I assumed he did a backup before I did the upgrade." is my current favorite.

[sparkeh]

@matt40k So what's your solution then, as if we follow your post then we end up in the same situation that Phil decried in the original post.

[matt40k]

Capita aren't the only one who offer the service you know! (@GREED kinda like saying only 1 company provides a MIS!) Number of LAs and other third parties provide the service. Lot cheaper too.

 

And... if Capita or any of the other companies that do it, don't do it right, tell them. They aren't mind readers, they can't investigate faulty installs if people don't tell you it's fault. It's like a teacher complaining to the head because a few machines in the IT rooms doesn't work - can't fix it if they don't tell you!

 

I think it's right we need to keep the discussion of permissions out of the public eye - you need to contact your support team, if you don't agree with what they've said, then poke Phil or someone until you get an answer your happy with. For me, this is the same as talking about the default user\pass - it needs to be discussed, but not where little kids are watching - point and case - http://www.edugeek.net/forums/mis-systems/146395-anyone-wana-help-me-scomis.html

 

Just to be clear, this isn't me or anyone having a go, it's just highlighting an issue, the only people moaning are you guys at Capita. Clearly Phil is in the dark, so if you know this has happened, raise it with them. We can't progress if we can't tell your doing it wrong without everyone flying off the handle. SIMSPerm was right in the days of NT, when admin network security was physical. The S drive is as much as a relic as SIMSPerm. 90% of users don't need a S: drive and no-one needs local admin rights nowadays - thanks to SOLUS3 - as @synaesthesia has stated (see it isn't just me!). Edugeek is a really great place, but if we can't give feedback or point out when information is out of date, how can we keep this place epic?

 

Anyway, I'll shut up now, I can't offer detail and I'm now out of date when it comes to SIMS and I've said my peace. I'll just laugh from twitter as we do the loopback round to Capita bashing.

[sparkeh]

And... if Capita or any of the other companies that do it, don't do it right, tell them. They aren't mind readers, they can't investigate faulty installs if people don't tell you it's fault. It's like a teacher complaining to the head because a few machines in the IT rooms doesn't work - can't fix it if they don't tell you!

But how would know that they are faulty if the people we are paying to install sims (who either work for Capita, are trained by Capita or working from Capita documentation) are telling us (and believe) that this is the correct way to do things? We aren't mind readers either

 

Anyway I think I've said all I need to say here and the right points have been made - it's been a most entertaining discussion

[Ephelyon]

The reality check here is that, in life, everyone expects everyone else to have a crystal ball... which is odd because we all know how much of a myth that is.

 

The reality is that passing the buck has never solved anything for anyone. Where service provision is concerned, the collaboration between supplier and deliverer is paramount.

 

Staff on the ground in schools need to know there is a way of doing things that the vendor can officially approve; they also need to know that a universal approach delivers exactly what it says on the tin. On the other hand, supplier representatives need to know when things are going wrong on the ground so they can generate - and issue widely - the guidance that supports those staff on the ground to get things done. If necessary, they can issue clarifications, but not before they've had sufficient representation among the customer base, which individual forum posts will not amount to - in a business sense - just by themselves.

 

The fact remains that the Capita Group is a very large entity - and thinking at that scale does take some effort! - that needs to respond to customer demand based on feedback that is both measured and measurable. Considering the market share of the SIMS product, we know that the education of children could be impacted if things aren't done properly... but then we all share a responsibility in our respective positions to ensure that this does not happen!

 

We just have to work together.

Edited December 13, 2014 by Ephelyon

[Paul_Featherstone]

After reading through the forum thread, we have reviewed our documentation available as part of the SIMS Installation CD’s and are happy with the information and guidance provided. One area we have identified that could do with some further explanation is around the discussion of the use of the S Drive, how the SIMS .net application uses the S Drive and which applications and areas of functionality use this. It is something the Product Managers are going to look into and work with the technical documentation team to improve on in the next release of the SIMS Installation CD.

 

Paul Featherstone

SIMS Product Manager (Core and Releases)

[pageig02]

hi Phil are there any guideline for virtualised install out yet?

thanks

[TheScarfedOne]

Im going to wade in with my size 10s on this issue now - after staying quiet for a while. I think the biggest issue is we forget that software evolves, and the recommendations for installation of it will change as well. A lot of the documentation to which people have referred is pre Solus 3 as @matt40k and others have said. Also, a number of the installs that people are checking and seeing are not as "currently" recommended need to remember when they were installed. Just because they were installed one way once, doesn't mean they wont change as a product evolves and processes change. Also true is that Capita aren't the only people who complete installs - there are many support units who also do this.

 

Consider how many SIMS installations there are, and how many different ways people set up their networks. The software is on your network, it is to a certain extent, your responsibility to set up the network and its security how you want it to be. I remember when I had the second SIMS instance set up at a former School - Capita came in and did it as part of a managed process. The first instance had been moved from server to server by me, and my predecessor before that. I think the point is, look over your setup and make sure you understand it, and how it works. If you aren't sure, or want advice - then ask Capita or your Support Unit. I believe @PhilNeal was raising how important the security of SIMS installations are, rather than pointing the finger at anyone in particular

[TheScarfedOne]

hi Phil are there any guideline for virtualised install out yet?

thanks

 

There were, I think I saw some last year. I will have to check it out, unless @PhilNeal or @Paul_Featherstone can throw the Resource ID up quickly...

 

I think that's another point really to add to above....

 

There area lots of posts about how to install SIMS etc on here - but the real source should be SupportNet, perhaps the Resource ID for that can be added here too?

[Paul_Featherstone]

Thanks @TheScarfedOne for your size 10 contribution, you are right and have understood the intention of Phil’s post completely. As a software supplier we have to do our best to make recommendations on how to install our software, this is covered to a large degree in the installation documentation available on the appropriate CD, but it could do with improvement around the area I discussed earlier.

 

Our advice is to ensure that a school wanting to virtualise their environment should make sure they employ an expert as it is not just about setting up an environment, within your structure, but also the maintenance of the environment, what we do know is that SIMS work very well in a well managed virtual environment. I believe we can make our minimum recommended specification document better, there are ideas in tailoring this for different sized schools and for the products they use, but again, this can only be a best guess as every school will have different requirements, you never know, this may go some way to help address issues people may have currently.

 

FYI - Documentation have just found resource 19548 on Support .net, a White Paper by Jon Wood regarding considerations when virtualising your network environments.