Teacher stabbed to death at school in Leeds

[sted]

I do worry about this attitude that so many children - hell, people - have, and wonder if we spend too much time telling them all what special little flowers they are. I work in a few primaries, and it's a minor miracle if a child steps aside to let you past - even if you're obviously carrying a heavy load

 

i dont see that most kids will hold doors, step aside etc to the point of actually getting in the way more than if they had just walked by and thats over several schools some of which in "bad areas".

 

i also wonder about wether marking people out as special for the slightest little thing isnt a bad idea. Take something like adhd is it diagnosed more because more people have it, its easier to diagnose or because its easier to deal ith a kid whos drugged up to be more docile (i suspect in a lot of cases its the latter and they dont get enough exercise). I suspect alot of probelms stem from not saying NO to kids and not allowing them to make mistakes. I know as a kid i fell of my bike and otherwise injured myself im not sure kids are given the freedom to do that now and if you dont learn your limits by from time to time going too far how do you learn what you can/cant do

[abillybob]

Can I just ask why this thread seems to have turned into an argument here? I've only skim read it so I may have missed something but from what I read @abillybob seems to be highlighting the fact that lots of children either do not know right from wrong or don't care that they are doing wrong because they will never be held accountable for their actions. I didn't read that they need to be shouted at or hit for this to happen, I read it as teachers losing the power to dish out a punishment that is suitable to the child's actions.

 

And however you try and put it, my wife was extremely worried because some child had informed the school that she had hit them during the lunch play time. She was worried that she would lose her job and therefore her career because she had no way of proving it was false. The fact is other children confirmed something happened but couldn't say exactly. It took 3 days before they found out that the day that said it happened thankfully was the day she was not in school and they admitted to making it up. Nothing happened to those children but my wife barely slept for 3 days due to stress. So yes, I agree that children know they can get away with an awful lot without the fear of any consequences.

 

I don't think this was the case we are talking about here though. It is a very tragic thing that has happened and as has been said before, you should be able to go into school feeling safe and being able to come home to your loved ones, that is both children and staff many of which have had their lives altered forever after this attack.

@penfold has rounded it up brilliantly, that is all I was trying to say I think this thread is going off in a slight tangent now. After watching "Teen Killers" it angered me that even though child X had brutally murdered his Mother and Farther, child X was complaining about how his childhood wasn't good and that they came from a broken home, the show played sad music at this point as if trying to express sympathy to the viewer for the teenager who killed his mother and farther in cold blood. I PERSONALLY don't think that is a viable excuse for killing your parents or anyone for that matter and wish people would stop using it as an excuse. This is what I'm trying to get across it was @gwendes that bought up the factor about mentally unstable people, I was merely putting my views across!

[superatticman]

Every society has its handful of nutcases and morons. Wasn't a baby left for dead in a street in China at some point last year? This from a society which has capital punishment and very strict ethics.

 

I hated school, hated my parents for frog marching me to the school gates, took solace in listening to rebellious music. But would I have ever dreamed of laying a hand on my parents, teachers etc? No!!

[Garacesh]

I think it's wrong to even speculate on abuse. Until the facts of the matter are released it would be respectful to the family and the victim to keep such speculation in check.

I wasn't trying to speculate, I was trying to highlight that without knowing the circumstances (which may never change) there are hundreds of possible reasons of why this has happened, ranging from the well-liked teacher having a previously unknown dark streak to a mentally and emotionally damaged young child making an impulse decision that they'll regret from the rest of our lives. I wasn't aiming to imply that's what I thought had happened, though.

 

Every society has its handful of nutcases and morons. Wasn't a baby left for dead in a street in China at some point last year? This from a society which has capital punishment and very strict ethics.

Unfortunately that's all too common in China, I believe. The one-child policy often results in baby girls being abandoned and the state not informed of their existence as the census is to have 'strong, male' children that will become rich, powerful, and pass on your family heritage.

Edited April 29, 2014 by Garacesh

[Earthling]

 

"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers." - Socrates 469-399BC

 

Unprofessional? Cheers!

 

Quote by Socrates…or is it? | Why We Do It!

 

Just saying

[gwendes]

Quote by Socrates…or is it? | Why We Do It!

 

Just saying

 

Maybe not - it can certainly be traced to the beginning of the century and it is verifiable by observation

 

This thread is too heated to contribute to now- I'm happy to discuss by PM or an open letter format by blog though.

[localzuk]

No, no, don't misunderstand this is not what I'm trying to say at all, mental illness is a different matter altogether. What I'm saying is that when people say the person involved has been mentally scared by his/her mother or close relative becoming brain damaged this does not excuse the perpetrator then going around and killing people as they have had a hard childhood in result to their close relative being brain damaged. I am NOT saying in anyway that a person WITH a mental illness is at fault I understand that they don't think like us and they can be dangerous as they can't sometimes determine right from wrong because they are ill!

 

Why do you get to decide that someone having a traumatic isn't a behavioural/mental problem. PTSD is serious, for example... That's my point really, you're trying to create a division between these sorts of crimes when even medical professionals and psychologists struggle doing just that.

[Grey-gear]

Just seen this in the news BBC News - Teacher's praise for Cwmcarn school after 'murder plot'

[X-13]

Just seen this in the news BBC News - Teacher's praise for Cwmcarn school after 'murder plot'

 

Jesus Christ... What the [censored] is going on?

 

That's 3 in rapid succession.

[Garacesh]

Also this: BBC News - Primary school boys 'poured bleach in teacher's coffee'

What the heck is happening to these kids to drive them this far?

[X-13]

Also this: BBC News - Primary school boys 'poured bleach in teacher's coffee'

 

Warwickshire Police confirmed officers had attended the school on Tuesday and added the boys "did not realise the seriousness" of what they had done.Police said it had been an "isolated incident", which was dealt with internally by the school.

 

Emphasis mine.

 

Plead ignorance and there's no consequences. They're the older side of Primary, so at or above the age of criminal responsibility.

[Grey-gear]

Hopefully there is no more case like this

[Garacesh]

Plead ignorance and there's no consequences. They're the older side of Primary, so at or above the age of criminal responsibility.

I'm sorry, but when I was in primary school, I certainly understood that bleach and other cleaning products (which I suspect is what it means by bleach-like) were not to be ingested.

[CAM]

"With the cooperation of their parents, the two pupils concerned were removed from their normal lessons and were disciplined by the school, in a manner consistent with the school's normal pastoral policy.

 

From the Telegraph. Internal exclusion seems about right for the bleach incident since they didn't know better. Full exclusion is always a final resort.

[X-13]

I'm sorry, but when I was in primary school, I certainly understood that bleach and other cleaning products (which I suspect is what it means by bleach-like) were not to be ingested.

 

As did I.

 

And so do these boys... It's why they used it.

 

What I'm saying is that they've now learned [or it's been implied and now verified] that if they just say "I didn't know it was bad" they'll get off with a slap on the wrist and a "don't do it again".

[abillybob]

Hmmm... Back before the 90's you never heard of anything like this! This is my point, I don't know what's going on with society these days and I'm sick and tired of how the public respond to one another, the simple "Hello" "Good Morning" has disappeared also in the street, when I say Hi to a neighbor on my street or smile at them they get all confused, it's almost like I'm threatening them. Parents don't dish out discipline like they used to either creating children which are more corrupt and nasty. Age ratings on Video Games, Films go a miss with most parents which to an extent I deem ok but don't let your 9 year old shoot prostitutes and run people over in Grand Theft Auto, for god sake.

 

Majority of the public have no respect for Emergency Services, other members of the public or anyone else that isn't them for that matter. It's like the whole UK has gone off it's rails.

 

Please understand I'm just voicing my opinions before some high horse person decides to slate me and post 100,000 links to websites showing statistics of how I am wrong, I don't care the point is this is how I feel in today's Society, Threatened, Under-Appreciated and an outcast and I'm pretty sure a lot of people do, I think this has something to do with how children are being bought up in this day of age and how they determine right from wrong when they get older.

[witch]

I'm really sorry you feel like this. Of course there are many examples of the sort of behavior you mention, but do try and remember that there are many many decent people who are trying to do the right thing, whether that be at work or when bringing up their children. I disagree with such sweeping statements as "the majority of the public...etc" or "parents don't..."- I really don't think that even the Daily Fail shows that almost every person doesn't care about anyone else.

I think you need to focus on the good that there is around, not just the bad, and remember that most people live quiet, law-abiding lives that don't get into the press, and whipping up fear of the apocalypse is what the news juggernaut does.

As for not hearing about anything like this before the 90's - sorry, but as someone who was around then, that is untrue I am afraid. There has always, and will always be things like this going on, and I for one do not think that physical punishment will change anything, not least because, by your own argument, people are desensitised to it anyway.

[LosOjos]

The only real difference I can see between now and "the good old days" is that the press get away with exaggerating the extent of a problem a lot more now than they used to. The UK has a population of approximately 64m people; 3 incidents in 12 months isn't a major problem (the three listed in this thread are the only ones I'm aware of, I'm not saying there haven't been more).

 

That's not to say these aren't awful and sometimes tragic incidents, but it's no refelection on the general populous. These 3 have all happened within a week of each other which makes things seem worse, but it's nothing more than a statistical anomaly. Average the number of these types of incident out over a 12 month period and take the size of the population in to consideration and it's safe to say the country isn't going to hell in a hand-basket.

 

As for people's manners in public, yeah I agree to an extent that a lot of people seem cold. I wasn't around in the "old days" to know if things were really any better then, but if they were then I'd put the change down to sensationalist headlines from the likes of the Daily Fail stirring up the public's fear of one another more than any real change in human emotion.

[pcstru]

Please understand I'm just voicing my opinions before some high horse person decides to slate me and post 100,000 links to websites showing statistics of how I am wrong, I don't care the point is this is how I feel

So the point is how you feel and any evidence to the contrary is entirely irrelevant. I think when people just straight up admit that evidence makes no difference to their 'opinion', there is not a lot that can be done.

[LosOjos]

Blue sky twaddle.

Give it 20 years and it will finally sink in for everyone.

 

Was that aimed at me?

[localzuk]

Hmmm... Back before the 90's you never heard of anything like this!

 

Not hearing about it is not the same as it not happening. The 90s didn't have ubiquitous internet access, 24 hour news etc...

 

This is my point, I don't know what's going on with society these days and I'm sick and tired of how the public respond to one another, the simple "Hello" "Good Morning" has disappeared also in the street, when I say Hi to a neighbor on my street or smile at them they get all confused, it's almost like I'm threatening them. Parents don't dish out discipline like they used to either creating children which are more corrupt and nasty. Age ratings on Video Games, Films go a miss with most parents which to an extent I deem ok but don't let your 9 year old shoot prostitutes and run people over in Grand Theft Auto, for god sake.

 

This has been caused by a change in the way we house people. It used to be that streets were often co-workers, all with kids in the same school etc... So there's little overlap, and therefore people simply don't know each other. We also don't have local pubs any more really, or local shops. So opportunities to get to know your neighbours are few and far between, unless you live in a little village.

 

Majority of the public have no respect for Emergency Services, other members of the public or anyone else that isn't them for that matter. It's like the whole UK has gone off it's rails.

 

Police? Sure, respect for them has disappeared since they changed from being a community police service to being a para-military arm of central government.

 

Please understand I'm just voicing my opinions before some high horse person decides to slate me and post 100,000 links to websites showing statistics of how I am wrong, I don't care the point is this is how I feel in today's Society, Threatened, Under-Appreciated and an outcast and I'm pretty sure a lot of people do, I think this has something to do with how children are being bought up in this day of age and how they determine right from wrong when they get older.

 

Perceptions are important, but often they are somewhat wrong as the facts don't back them up. We all know this from working in customer facing roles.

[pcstru]

I wasn't around in the "old days" to know if things were really any better then, but if they were then I'd put the change down to sensationalist headlines from the likes of the Daily Fail stirring up the public's fear of one another more than any real change in human emotion.

Or just ignorance. How many of us actually have enough awareness of what was going on x years ago, other than in our own small worlds. People usually don't have the evidence on which to make such judgements and judging by the post above, people don't even want to be confronted by evidence that might upset their world view. All probably summed up by the Simpsons :

 

"Lisa, your tears say more than real evidence ever could".

[abillybob]

So the point is how you feel and any evidence to the contrary is entirely irrelevant. I think when people just straight up admit that evidence makes no difference to their 'opinion', there is not a lot that can be done.

 

How I feel and my opinion to something is completely different. You can't change the way I feel in today's society by pointing out figures though you could change my opinion my showing me the facts! 'Opinion' is proberbly used wrongly I meant it's how I feel in today's society, the fact I sit there with my girlfriend and she rarely takes her eyes off her phone, same with my mum! Technology, the media, video games, entertainment I think has changed our society in a big way. Children are growing up in a more sexual, violent world then back in the 'good ol' days' and to top it all off they don't talk to their family or peers as much as they should as they are glued to an iPad or playing video games.

 

It has to have an effect, whether you want to believe it or not and it effects many of us. Sure there was one sick kid that played up in a blue moon but now it seems very young children are getting involved in violent crimes very frequently, I believe it has to have something to do with the way society is and the way we now view technology.

[LosOjos]

Or just ignorance. How many of us actually have enough awareness of what was going on x years ago, other than in our own small worlds. People usually don't have the evidence on which to make such judgements and judging by the post above, people don't even want to be confronted by evidence that might upset their world view. All probably summed up by the Simpsons :

 

"Lisa, your tears say more than real evidence ever could".

 

I wasn't born until '88, I don't think it's fair to call me ignorant because I didn't experience life before I was born... I know the anecdotal evidence says things were better back then but I don't put much weight in anecdotal evidence. So, I don't know what the world was like before '88 (actually, I couldn't honestly say I really know what the world was like before I started work, so 2004!) but I do know that the press like to whip up a frenzy because that's what sells. I can't say for sure that that's what has caused people to be a little cold, but I know my grandparents and my OH's grandparents genuinely worry about what they read in the papers and I also know that what they read isn't a true reflection of UK daily life.

[casey]

Since the beginning of the year the Daily Telegraph have been providing a PDF of the paper of that day from 100 years ago to commemorate the first World War.

I have been looking at them 3 or 4 days of each week and what I have noticed is that very little has changed.

Murders were comitted, children were abused, arson and firebombings occurred and everyday people were conned by crooks.

The depressing thing to me is not that thing have become worse but that very little has improved.

 

I agree with Witch in that I think the majority are decent, law abiding and try to do what is right and the very small minority of 'wrong doers' get a lot of attention.

It seems to me the media are much more omnipresent these days (on your phone, computer, TV with rolling 24 hour news and in print) so things seem worse than they used to be.

 

There is a quote which I saw once which was basically a real moan about young people running wild and being disrespectful to their elders, and at the end it credited the writer, who was a Roman from about 2000 years ago, so I figure it's mostly the perception that things were better in "the old days" not necessarily that they really were.