[ipad] Why iPads are not for the Enterprise

[edutech4schools]

This is the reason I have been refusing I-pads / Androids in my schools and waiting for a viable MS alternative. I look after some primary schools, we already have a MS server with AD and GPO and all the curric software runs on windows. I do not want to add other control systems or software that will only run on I-pads or Androids and double up on my work load. I agree that if Apple had got in to my schools before MS then it might be a different scenario, with everything being Apple I would not want to change to MS, but MS got in first.

 

Another thing to note is the fact that Windows 8 will also run on desktops, which gives me 1 OS to look after.

[zag]

This is the reason I have been refusing I-pads / Androids in my schools and waiting for a viable MS alternative. I look after some primary schools, we already have a MS server with AD and GPO and all the curric software runs on windows. I do not want to add other control systems or software that will only run on I-pads or Androids and double up on my work load. I agree that if Apple had got in to my schools before MS then it might be a different scenario, with everything being Apple I would not want to change to MS, but MS got in first.

 

Another thing to note is the fact that Windows 8 will also run on desktops, which gives me 1 OS to look after.

 

Thats the whole point though. You don't need AD any more with Ipads (although saying that our proxy still uses it to track internet usage even on the ipads).

 

Windows 8 will be an utter failure. You just have to see the interface and confused desktop behind it to understand why. Microsoft will get there eventually though, I just don't think windows 8 will be it.

[GrumbleDook]

Somebody has been listening to the apple machine too much

 

Actually ... let us just sit and think about this response. Someone who is a regular member has posted from personal experience of supporting a type of device and the OS in *their* school and has expressed that it works well for them. How is that listening to the to the Apple machine too much?

 

I am sure that others could throw it back at you and so that you have been listening to the Apple Haters too much.

 

Please ... try to be prepared to accept that some people have a good experience and it works for them fine, in the same way that others need to be willing to accept that it is a difficult and painful experience for some members.

[edutech4schools]

Thats the whole point though. You don't need AD any more with Ipads (although saying that our proxy still uses it to track internet usage even on the ipads).

 

So you do not have any windows computers in your school?

 

From a primary school angle I only have time to look after 1 type of OS and while we have a need in the office for windows computers and then a need for AD I will not be adding other systems.

[GrumbleDook]

So you do not have any windows computers in your school?

 

From a primary school angle I only have time to look after 1 type of OS and while we have a need in the office for windows computers and then a need for AD I will not be adding other systems.

 

So the choice is down to what support is available and the amount of time it takes to do this? I'm not trying to say that this is wrong but if the school was willing to put more money / time in if that is what would be required would other systems be considered?

 

Also ... moving to W8 is still going to involve more work than just putting more WinXP / Win7 systems in ... I can remember the interesting fun people had changing profiles, etc when going from W2K systems to Win7 ... and since we have schools going from WinXP to W8 has this been considered? Will it be the same amount of time as introducing / managing iOS / Android, more time or less time?

[Theblacksheep]

Windows 8 will be an utter failure. You just have to see the interface and confused desktop behind it to understand why. Microsoft will get there eventually though, I just don't think windows 8 will be it.

 

Whether its a commercial failure, I don't know but personally I think Windows8 will be great for schools. The start menu is just a program loader, so it'll be nice and simple for the children.

 

Remote wipe/restore of RT, easy to program metro apps, proper integration with a currently existing systems and no itunes. I'm looking forward to seeing what we can do with it and feel it has alot of potential.

 

 

Also ... moving to W8 is still going to involve more work than just putting more WinXP / Win7 systems in ... I can remember the interesting fun people had changing profiles, etc when going from W2K systems to Win7 ... and since we have schools going from WinXP to W8 has this been considered? Will it be the same amount of time as introducing / managing iOS / Android, more time or less time?

 

Win8 profiles are the same as Win7. So same amount of work as changing from XP to Windows7, which has to happen at some point unless you are ditching MS all together.

Edited July 16, 2012 by Theblacksheep

[CyberNerd]

We have some IOS devices as well as Android, linux OSX and Windows.

The amount of time they require to look after is grossly overstated. They generally work well with few problems. Its good to have a mixed environment.

 

We put in systems to manage them. It's often a different system depending upon the device (mac server, google apps, spacewalk or active directory). Ultimately you put in the systems that are needed for the application. I couldn't imagine saying to SLT that we would refuse to install SIMS because we didn't have an SQL server! or that we wouldn't take windows computers because we already have apple.

Active directory is certainly becoming less relevant to this school as the number of devices that it cannot support increases.

[zag]

So you do not have any windows computers in your school?

 

From a primary school angle I only have time to look after 1 type of OS and while we have a need in the office for windows computers and then a need for AD I will not be adding other systems.

 

We support Windows and Apple devices.

 

But the point I'm trying to make is the Apple devices require virtually no support. They just work. Our joblist has nearly 10,000 jobs on it. I think there are only 13 for ipads

[Heebeejeebee]

@GrumbleDook

 

So far all you seem to have done is question people's concerns and worries about integrating them into their own specific environments. Hardly any schools will have a 1:1 iPad:student ratio so these things have to be shared. I too have some of these concerns for most of the reasons above.

 

If you have a working solution for managing them properly and effectively, allowing access to student files and work areas (which is expected by teachers and SLT) and deploying apps easily then please share it with us rather than adopting the rather high and mighty stance that you seem to have taken over this.

 

I could of course grabbed the wrong end of the stick entirely

 

HBJB

Edited July 16, 2012 by Heebeejeebee

[GrumbleDook]

Win8 profiles are the same as Win7. So same amount of work as changing from XP to Windows7, which has to happen at some point unless you are ditching MS all together.

 

I know, but I have heard two schools recently where support staff are refusing to do anything with iOS because of the amount of work involved and have even said they will wait until W8 is out ... but have failed to mention that this will *also* require work to be done ... the thing I am suggesting people do is to try to quantify the work instead of a just coming out with a standard comment about iOS is too much work. There has to be a reference point and that also has to take into consideration work which may be done in other parts of the schools, including rewriting parts of the curriculum (taking up a good chunk of work on the part of teaching staff). If SLT are willing to put in extra time and resources for teaching staff to get to grips with a new system then this is also about making sure they are aware of the needs of the support staff to, not just to set things up but to manage the devices long term.

 

This applies to *any* sizeable change and how it is planned for and funded ...

[GrumbleDook]

@GrumbleDook

 

So far all you seem to have done is question people's concerns and worries about integrating them into their own specific environments. Hardly any schools will have a 1:1 iPad:student ratio so these things have to be shared. I too have some of these concerns for most of the reasons above.

 

If you have a working solution for managing them properly and effectively, allowing access to student files and work areas (which is expected by teachers and SLT) and deploying apps easily then please share it with us rather than adopting the rather high and mighty stance that you seem to have taken over this.

 

I could of course grabbed the wrong end of the stick entirely

 

HBJB

 

Not high and mighty ... let us just say it is healthy challenge over people not willing to look at other options or even go back to look at old projects and research. People saying W8 will fix everything is as blinkered as those saying Apple devices will save our schools or that the universe will be a better place once everything is open source.

 

And to be honest, some people aren't raising concerns ... they are saying they won't do it ... not explaining why and once again they risk labelling IT Support as the people who block things. As for solutions to manage devices ... it all depends on your setup in your school ... there are good blogs out there about this with a range of experiences and there are also a number of commercial firms who deal with this. I've already covered a number of options in the past (as have many others) so the blind "It can't be done" should be "It is a pig" or even "it works best with this sort of scenario", depending on whether people are going to put in the work. It might be they *can't* put in the work due to lack of training, lack of resources, lack of staff, lack of money ... and they may be hampered by SLT who are in awe of the next big shiny idea.

[synaesthesia]

There is always a way for those willing to find it. The way is only blocked for or by those who *choose* to block it.

[GrumbleDook]

There is always a way for those willing to find it. The way is only blocked for or by those who *choose* to block it.

 

Yes, this is one of the issues, but I am trying to get across that change is a big problem, it has been looked at before and that we need to learn from this. The same SLT were probably having conversations about how product X would make all the difference many moons ago, but in this case it has been tried before with tech similar enough for us to be able to see if the wheel is just being reinvented. Whether you are on W8, iOS or Android it just means that the amount of change and type of change could be different ... and this is before you get onto curriculum change.

[Heebeejeebee]

True and I would thank you for this post but for some reason the button is missing.

 

HBJB

[synaesthesia]

It shouldn't be a big problem though. Proper change management, decent levels of communication and input from *all* the relevant people should negate that. However each of those steps carries their own difficulties which adds up - change management is great unless it's done half sharp, communication and input is fantastic when all the right people are communicated with in the first place; in a school, those can often be a nightmare.

Given the right timeframes, the correct levels of expectations from all involved and the will to at least do the best possible, any issues should be easily overcome.

 

* Disclaimer. Yes. I am green and niaive. I also bite, so people taking advantage of that get bitten.

[GrumbleDook]

True and I would thank you for this post but for some reason the button is missing.

 

HBJB

 

We are in the 'interweb things' forum and thanks / rep is more appropriate in other forums ... perhaps this thread does need to be moved to a different forum anyway now?

[SYNACK]

In many schools, change management is the process of management screaming 'pretty' and demanding to change everything to the latest shiny bs that will change everything despite being a slight revision. How many times is every little change going to be a revolution. Does no one pay attention to anything anymore.

[maniac]

Has anyone else read this report on the Longfield academy in Kent, they use iPads extensively in a 1 per student approach. I have visited here a few times, and it is impressive to say the least.

 

It is worth a read, although I do have to say I find it slightly bias with some of the comments made.

 

judge for yourself here

 

Naace: The iPad as a Tool For Education - a case study

[synaesthesia]

There's always downsides - first thing that comes to my mind is if they're used extensively (enough to warrant 1:1) then is it diminishing from other important skills such as writing, manually doing mathematics etc?

 

There's a school near here doing 1:1, I'd certainly like to see it in action before really making judgement on it. Regardless, we've a fair few teachers who have bought their own and find them very useful indeed, and after buying some ourselves we are hovering on the idea of using them as teaching tools. We're fully aware of what they can and can not be expected to do, workload will be no greater than laptops (maintenance is zero, updating is a little more of a pain unless teachers are given full responsibility of it etc). There's plenty of tools to lock things down, track where they are (Configurator, Meraki) however other than insurance reasons I think it's less work/bother to leave them in the hands of the staff.

Edited July 17, 2012 by synaesthesia

[localzuk]

I went to interview yesterday and this was brought up there. The school has trialed iPads with a select number of teachers (about a third in the school) and the response has been mixed. Some love them, some gave them back as they didn't have the time, desire or inclination to do anything with them.

 

What I think this highlighted was that any technology can work in a school, so long as there is sufficient willingness to make it work among the staff. If your particular school is like the half that like the iPads at this school then you're likely to be more like Zag. If your staff are like the half that gave them back, then you're more likely get no-where with them.

 

I think what @GrumbleDook is doing is trying to get people to look past their 'bedded in' ideas - to stop people from doing what some are doing which is going 'ZOMG! iPads are evil!' or 'Windows 8 will solve everything!!'. Instead, the technologies should be looked at in the context of your individual school's needs, and then the issues looked at from there.

 

Personally, I'm still entirely dubious of tablets in education. There are many, many issues that need resolving before I'd be happy to jump in with them.

[Dos_Box]

I'm going to move this into the Netbooks PDA and Phones forum now. There is far to much valuable comment on here to leave it lingering in the General section.

[synaesthesia]

The same goes for most types of technology. Some people will swear by it, some people will hate it, and there will always unfortunately be techies, NMs and SLT members who are hardened fanboys of ProductX or in the same breath, would die before ProductY is allowed in the school. That's before even looking at what they can or can't do.

[sparkeh]

The problem I have have with iPads is (in my experience) it has evoked the oft repeated strategic IT management mistake: let's get something fashionable in and shoehorn it into our operations. Of course this is is not the fault of Apple per se (after all it is a fact that iPads are aimed squarely at the consumer market and not designed for the enterprise) but the desire by management to appear 'on trend' and up to date without fully thinking the impact through. If my school came to me and said we want to achieve x,y and z, and we looked at all the options and their impact and the result was that iPads were the best solution then fine, I have no problem with that. But that process needs to be followed.

 

I am not an Apple hater, just a hater of poor decision making.

[pcstru]

We ran an experiment with netbooks, issuing them to two tutor groups, one in year 8 and 9 and one teaching group. What we didn't do was put much (any!) effort into changing the culture; effectively we just parachuted in 90 net books and said "get on with it then". The experiment ran for 1 year in the yr 9 group, 2 years in the year 8 group and the teacher still uses the netbooks, 3 years on (mostly for internet research type activities). The tutor groups showed no significant (2 sigma) impact on results, one was down slightly and one showed a slight gain in maths.

 

We did this against a background of clamour about how devices were transforming education (claims made by the likes of the eLearning foundation). It's not that I don't believe that their studies are true in that they show significant impacts on results, but they fail to isolate the cause as being down to devices rather than the cultural change that accompanied them. The schools going down the route of a device per student also went through exceptional periods of cultural change with huge amount of effort put into helping teachers adapt to and adopt the new technology in their lessons. The key question for me in that is what would the transformation have been like if that effort was put into some other aspect of the teaching or general school culture.

 

I'm somewhat cynical of the "mmm, nice shiny new iPad/Mac/Andriod/voting devices/VLE/IWB" enthusiasm that floods out of individual teachers from time to time. It's not that I believe any of them wouldn't work, rather I believe transformative power of such technologies is as a pivot around which cultural change takes place. The technology itself is almost irrelevant.

[zag]

Just to clarify we have had huge success with tablets for teachers, but have so far found little use for them with students.

 

We have trialled it with the SEN students so far with mixed feedback.

 

Teachers on the other hand love them. I think the killer apps are Registration, Presentations, and using the webcam to display things on the board. Most of the benifits come from speed of boot and reliability of it just working in the classroom. Just as an example I've never had a teacher phone me and say it wasn't working on the projector.

Edited July 17, 2012 by zag