....and there was me thinking this country was broke....

[Michael]

Unfortunately it's going to be a case of when rather than if the Euro currency collapses and whether we like it or not, we have assets tied up in Europe.

 

You could argue on the one hand 10 billion is a lot to give the IMF, even as a loan, but if it minimises the impact on the UK and our economy then it may be worth it. Again, we're very much trusting these 'financial experts' to make the correct choices.

[CHR1S]

+1 for Red Dwarf please!

[sted]

Unfortunately it's going to be a case of when rather than if the Euro currency collapses and whether we like it or not, we have assets tied up in Europe.

 

You could argue on the one hand 10 billion is a lot to give the IMF, even as a loan, but if it minimises the impact on the UK and our economy then it may be worth it. Again, we're very much trusting these 'financial experts' to make the correct choices.

 

if we are going to use/lose this money couldnyt it just go directly to uk firms that are owed money by greece etc cancel the debt in a way that benefits our economy?

[Michael]

if we are going to use/lose this money couldnyt it just go directly to uk firms that are owed money by greece etc cancel the debt in a way that benefits our economy?

 

I'm by no means a financial expert, but it is the likes of Greece and other countries that owe the UK money. You're essentially saying the UK Government should use tax payers money to pay back companies which will lose money from Greece? Unfortunately business doesn't work like that and it's the irresponsible Greek Government who should be paying back debt. We'll all be long dead as it's going to take hundreds of years at Greece's rate of paying anything back.

 

It's a known fact that the majority of poorer/weaker countries in the Euro fiddled their books just to get into the Euro currency and it's only now Governments around the world are realising this or accepting it. The point is the damage is already done and personally I think paying any more money is a waste of time. It's basically fraud, but on a national scale.

 

I don't like to stereotype, but there are a considerable number of Greece's population who pay little or no tax at all. This left the Government in a sticky situation, so they've been fiddling the books for years - just to please the unelected European officials that the Euro was growing, when in fact it has been in the decline ever since the beginning.

 

Look at countries like France and Germany. Generally big, healthy economies which are genuinely creating wealth. What exactly do Greece manufacturer? Between my friends and myself, we could only come up with cheese and olive oil, so how on earth are they going to be able to pay anything back is beyond me. The Euro currency really was a big error of judgement in my opinion.

[Flatpackhamster]

That's the contentious point - many economists disagree with that. Sure, they're mostly German and French economists but still...

 

Those economists all that massive fiscal transfers would be necessary in order to give the southern European countries the money they need. Are Germans really going to agree to work to the age of 70 so Greeks can retire at 55?

 

Well, some countries would sign up to that, but others wouldn't. Over time, it could probably be achieved, but it would take a very long time. Realistically though, no it isn't likely.

 

All of which means that the £10Bn extra of our money Gideon has coughed up is going to disappear.

[mattx]

16 Billion is needed !!! ........Oh hang on, we have just flushed money down the lav by giving 10 Billion to Europe..... Ho Ho Ho you know when you have a moron for a chancellor......

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-17809650

Edited April 23, 2012 by mattx

[featured_spectre]

Greeks economy benefits massively with trade too and from turkey/Egypt/Israel...and a large portion of Greeces wealth etc came from historic monuments such as the parthenon, etc...just a shame really as Greeces book fiddling has been going on since the late 50s (before paying tax became "compulsory" and the current generation of retirees were able to use alternative means of tax evasion).

[pcstru]

and ... they make a lot of plates.

[LpNova_techi]

Dont get me started on the political no money agenda ....... If people didnt use thier expense accounts for kitkats and ponds maybe a couple of kids may get a better education .......

[mthomas08]

Dont get me started on the political no money agenda ....... If people didnt use thier expense accounts for kitkats and ponds maybe a couple of kids may get a better education .......

 

At least their not spending the money on iPhones and iPads oh wait...............

[LpNova_techi]

Lol, I cant tell you how many requests I have had for them....... great for apple obviously lets just give them all one.

[bodminman]

and ... they make a lot of plates.

 

yes but then they just go and break them again!

[mthomas08]

Lol, I cant tell you how many requests I have had for them....... great for apple obviously lets just give them all one.

 

Great? You mean Insanely - $11.6Billion profits.

Apple profits soar on record iPhone sales | TG Daily

 

Although all 3 of us here..... who hated Apple now all have iPhones.

[LpNova_techi]

typically british thing to do!

[mthomas08]

Superdad of 12 has his say on the whole Gov..

 

Searing view on Britain by 'superdad'-of-12 who has emigrated to Australia | The Sun |Features

 

Must say I agree with him 100%, as a middle child seeing a older sister work hard for her family, college/full time job, 3 great kids, husband, house and car - worked for it all. And a Younger sister who left school at 14 and that was it now has a house, custody of 1 out of 2 children and has worked about 4 days in her life (no sarcasm, shes just turned 26 and lives off benefits) I have seen both sides of the coin. I my self had left school, college 3 years + part time work then full time work...

[Gibbo]

Dont get me started on the political no money agenda ....... If people didnt use thier expense accounts for kitkats and ponds maybe a couple of kids may get a better education .......

 

 

Shouldn't that be down to the resource that every school already has - teachers?

[alttab]

I'm by no means a financial expert, but it is the likes of Greece and other countries that owe the UK money. You're essentially saying the UK Government should use tax payers money to pay back companies which will lose money from Greece? Unfortunately business doesn't work like that and it's the irresponsible Greek Government who should be paying back debt. We'll all be long dead as it's going to take hundreds of years at Greece's rate of paying anything back.

 

It's a known fact that the majority of poorer/weaker countries in the Euro fiddled their books just to get into the Euro currency and it's only now Governments around the world are realising this or accepting it. The point is the damage is already done and personally I think paying any more money is a waste of time. It's basically fraud, but on a national scale.

 

I don't like to stereotype, but there are a considerable number of Greece's population who pay little or no tax at all. This left the Government in a sticky situation, so they've been fiddling the books for years - just to please the unelected European officials that the Euro was growing, when in fact it has been in the decline ever since the beginning.

 

Look at countries like France and Germany. Generally big, healthy economies which are genuinely creating wealth. What exactly do Greece manufacturer? Between my friends and myself, we could only come up with cheese and olive oil, so how on earth are they going to be able to pay anything back is beyond me. The Euro currency really was a big error of judgement in my opinion.

 

the greeks will never pay that money back. Because the prescribed method of payback is reducing the national deficits which equals austerity cuts, which doesn't work. The only way shrinking the size of government and welfare cuts works is if it kicks off a credit boom, and i can't see that happening in places like Spain and Greece where unemployment is so high.

 

In the end the government will always ending up writing the cheque, or in the case of the EU the richer nations via the european central bank - even if it's PFI-style off balance sheet state spending which disguises itself as private sector 'investment'. Just as much of a misnomer as investors 'lending money' to government in the bond market. The bond market should be more accurately described as governments writing pension cheques. ;0)

 

So the only way out is some combination of the ECB writing the cheques so that the greek government can keep the lights on and a haircut for those who were daft enough to buy Greek bonds. In the meantime i guess the ECB continues to be the buyer of last resort. The IMF is not unlike the ECB, it's just a mechanism through which governments spend. I guess you could call it aid, but it's aid with a lot of strings. The chief beneficiaries of which are those who clean up during the firesale when a country is forced down the austerity/IMF route.

[alttab]

Superdad of 12 has his say on the whole Gov..

 

Searing view on Britain by 'superdad'-of-12 who has emigrated to Australia | The Sun |Features

 

Must say I agree with him 100%, as a middle child seeing a older sister work hard for her family, college/full time job, 3 great kids, husband, house and car - worked for it all. And a Younger sister who left school at 14 and that was it now has a house, custody of 1 out of 2 children and has worked about 4 days in her life (no sarcasm, shes just turned 26 and lives off benefits) I have seen both sides of the coin. I my self had left school, college 3 years + part time work then full time work...

 

 

 

The problem is how you interpret this quote and the idea of causation

 

I looked at my children and thought, ‘What would be there for them by the time they reach adulthood?’ I couldn’t see anything — unless they wanted to get pregnant or get someone pregnant. Then they could claim a house and benefit handouts.

 

“Alternatively they could stick in and work hard at school. They could go to sixth form, go to university — and get saddled with thousands of pounds of debt and have no job prospects. It broke my heart.”

 

the idea peddled by the press is that those in the second group of people have the prospects they have because of the people in the first group.

When it's clear to me the circumstances of both groups are symptoms rather than one causing the other. Person A on benefits and in social housing is not the causation of person B incurring thousands of pounds of debts and forced to rent. And neither does it work the other way....

 

Person A is reliant on benefits because the government chooses not to guarantee a well paid job and childcare arrangements. Plus if it's commendable for someone on good money to be seeking out the most tax efficient way of receiving their income even if that's at the expense of others who can't take advantage of such breaks, then why is it not acceptable for those on benefits with dependants to not put themselves in a situation where they incur tax burdens ?

This points to an unfair tax and benefits system, yes. But it's an unfair tax system all the way up, from taxpayer funded consultants in the middle paying tax at 20%, to non-doms who save even more every year. It's not just at the level of those who are on out of work benefits where the tax inequalities exist.

 

 

Person B is in debt because government chooses not to provide affordable housing, both situations are rectifiable but not in isolation and the current prescription for dealing with these problems are wholly inappropriate. This idea that you work hard and you get the rewards is nice in theory, but on paper those who espouse that would probably not be in the position they are without a fair bit of luck, inheritance, cronyism, misfortune-of-others, tax loopholes to have 'earned' those rewards. But then they're not chavs so whatever good fortune they've fallen into is alright and govt. shouldn't dare tax or take it away. As soon as people try and take the moral high ground and say i work harder than thee or i get up earlier therefore...then they are on shaky ground. because that kind of perceived 'fairness' doesn't work in capitalism anyway.

Edited April 27, 2012 by alttab

[beeswax]

Great? You mean Insanely - $11.6Billion profits.

Apple profits soar on record iPhone sales | TG Daily

 

Although all 3 of us here..... who hated Apple now all have iPhones.

 

 

"Using a mix of Apple's own filings and industry data, the academics broke down the cost of making one product in particular: the wildly popular 4G iPhone. Assembled in China, the total cost of putting together just one phone was $178.45. Compare that with a sale price (including downloads) of $630 and Apple makes $452 on each phone: a whacking gross margin of 72%."

 

You can read the full article here

[pcstru]

"Using a mix of Apple's own filings and industry data, the academics broke down the cost of making one product in particular: the wildly popular 4G iPhone. Assembled in China, the total cost of putting together just one phone was $178.45. Compare that with a sale price (including downloads) of $630 and Apple makes $452 on each phone: a whacking gross margin of 72%."

 

You can read the full article here

 

That's a poor way to look at the cost of a product to a company. It doesn't take any account of staff, shops, marketing, transporting the product from source into the hands of the consumer, various import duties and corporation taxes. Apple results show a profit of $~12b on turnover of $~40b for the last quarter - a 30% margin.

[Flatpackhamster]

The problem is how you interpret this quote and the idea of causation

 

the idea peddled by the press is that those in the second group of people have the prospects they have because of the people in the first group.

When it's clear to me the circumstances of both groups are symptoms rather than one causing the other. Person A on benefits and in social housing is not the causation of person B incurring thousands of pounds of debts and forced to rent. And neither does it work the other way....

 

Well I'm glad that it's "clear" to you that the taxes paid to fund the lifestyle of person A don't come from person B.

 

Person A is reliant on benefits because the government chooses not to guarantee a well paid job and childcare arrangements.

 

So it's completely the fault of government that they don't pander to the whims of dole bludgers? No, person A is reliant on benefits because the government makes it far more profitable for them to loaf around on their fat backside. It is not the job of Government to provide jobs and childcare!!

 

Plus if it's commendable for someone on good money to be seeking out the most tax efficient way of receiving their income even if that's at the expense of others who can't take advantage of such breaks, then why is it not acceptable for those on benefits with dependants to not put themselves in a situation where they incur tax burdens ?

 

Because dole bludgers are living at the expense of the rest of us. That's my money raising their feckless chav scum kids, and I'm sick of it, and I'm sick of people defending the benefits lifestyle.

 

From a Darwinian perspective, they got it exactly right. They're able to produce 3 or 4 children every 20 years, whereas the long-suffering middle classes (like me) can just about to afford to raise 2 every 40 years. They're laughing all the way to the genetic bank.

 

This points to an unfair tax and benefits system, yes. But it's an unfair tax system all the way up, from taxpayer funded consultants in the middle paying tax at 20%, to non-doms who save even more every year. It's not just at the level of those who are on out of work benefits where the tax inequalities exist.

 

Yeah, that's it. It's all the fault of those evil middle and high earners taking all the consultancy and entrepreneurial jobs away from people who dropped out of school at 15 to have 3 children by 3 different fathers.

 

Person B is in debt because government chooses not to provide affordable housing, both situations are rectifiable but not in isolation and the current prescription for dealing with these problems are wholly inappropriate. This idea that you work hard and you get the rewards is nice in theory, but on paper those who espouse that would probably not be in the position they are without a fair bit of luck, inheritance, cronyism, misfortune-of-others, tax loopholes to have 'earned' those rewards. But then they're not chavs so whatever good fortune they've fallen into is alright and govt. shouldn't dare tax or take it away. As soon as people try and take the moral high ground and say i work harder than thee or i get up earlier therefore...then they are on shaky ground. because that kind of perceived 'fairness' doesn't work in capitalism anyway.

 

It doesn't work under Communism either. The difference is that under a Capitalist system you at least stand a chance of making it. Under a communist one, you go where the government tells you.

[LiamH]

We should just buy Greek towns and city's and then we could win the game... oh wait that only works in Civilization, shame

 

I do think they benefit culture has a big effect on everything. Just a shame people take the P%$" with it all. Think they should give them food stamps that cant be used on luxury items, even though that normally just creates a black market for food stamps.

 

It makes my blood boil when i see people (and i'm friends with a few!) who have worked for less than a week of their lives and have a kid, and the system gives them a house, money to buy a flatscreen TV and being able to afford to go out drinking 3 times a week. I have been working since i was 16 and cant afford my own place or to go out every week. Most of the people who i know in this situation are young single mothers who say they will get a job when their kids go to school, but get so used to doing naff all watching trash TV all day that when that time comes they think "why bother?"

 

Its a shame they cant put subliminal messaging into the Jeremy Kyle show -.-'

 

[/offtopic rant]

[sted]

benefits is a hard one on one side you need to provide a safety net for people who are out of work on the other you cant take too much money off the people who are and give it to people who wont work. But what can you do? Is it socially/morally acceptable to allow someone to starve/freeze to death because they havnt got a job. How do you tell with strict rules a lazy **** from someone who just cant find a job? Putting rules in like must attend x interviews in x timeframe dosent help thats easy enough to get round (and not just turning up and obviously blowing the interview you can be much more subbtle about it so it dosent look as suspect). In society like it or not there will be people who take the michael of systems designed to protect "vunerable" people

[mthomas08]

I am sure there are "options", giving a house to some one who decided to leave school and just get pregnant - does she really need a 2 bed house and ££ thrown at her? What about food vouchers? clothes vouchers? instead of cash to buy fags/drink and the latest top brand clothes. I know my younger sister is exactly as I describe above.

 

As for single mothers - whats wrong with government funded nursery? I would rather pay taxes for their kids to be at nursery so their mothers can work. What about those who can't find a job or shall I say "Won't" find a job. The sun just had an article where people didnt bother turning up for work in the first place.

 

Boss hires seven people... none turn up because of rain | The Sun |News

 

Instead of throwing money at people why not say You Prove to me you need this money and you can't find work. The idea is to actually persuade people to work in the first place and not just say "Bleh, whats the point, I just claim benefits". We do have a bad benefit culture compared to other nations in the EU yet we dont see their people starving on the streets, just getting pregnant at 15.

[Sdrawkcab]

As for single mothers - whats wrong with government funded nursery? I would rather pay taxes for their kids to be at nursery so their mothers can work.

 

It's not really fair to say "You are a poor single mother so you don't get to raise your own child". That's what would be wrong.