The M5 crash

[Guest Guest]

Oh come off it. If I stood on a bridge and dropped a brick on your car while you drove under it causing a massive pileup it would be your fault?

 

I was going to add "unless a plane falls on you from above" but thought no one would be quite that pedantic. I should have known...

 

No ones being pedantic. Your post clearly says the drivers should be ready for any hazard. Me stating that it is a daft position to take is not being pedantic.

[pcstru]

No ones being pedantic. Your post clearly says the drivers should be ready for any hazard. Me stating that it is a daft position to take is not being pedantic.

 

It is pedantic in a discussion of a motorway pile-up where 30 odd cars have ploughed into the ones crashing in-front.

Edited November 7, 2011 by pcstru

[creese]

I believe the safe stopping distance is to allow for your delayed reaction to the vehicle in front braking and stopping. It does not take into account a sudden stop due to that vehicle hitting and immovable object.

 

If a lorry jack-knifed and the trailer started coming back toward you....

[Guest Guest]

Apart from pretty much all news sites having some form of quote stating there was fog.

I don't disagree that a sudden fog/smoke bank would be very disorientating, but if it is shown there was fog and ground water, then wouldn't you hope that cars and lorries were already a safe distance from each other even before this bank of smoke hit?

If you were doing 70mph in fog and sitting a few feet from the car in front, then even in broad daylight your chances of stopping before hitting them are slim. That is all I'm saying, I am not blaming speed as the only factor (as per my original post) I am saying that speed/tailgating are also an attributable factor

 

I would agree but we don't know people were doing that - they probably were but not all of them.

 

 

A few of my mates are HGV drivers. One of them was pulling a heavy load on the major carriageway through the North East. He came to the crest of a hill and was immediately confronted by a broken down car which wasn't pulled far enough off the road. "But by the grace of god" he managed to avoid them. If he hadn't been on the ball... If a car had been beside him... If the car had been slightly further out into the road...

 

Point is shat happens, and to blame it on the motorists and their speed is just as knee jerk as the media saying there was a firework display so it must have been that.

[Guest Guest]

It is pedantic in a discussion of a motorway pile-up where 30 odd cars have ploughed into the ones crashing in-front.

 

Eh? tbh I have no idea what you are talking about.

[SYNACK]

All these car accident/collision debates are stupid, you have the self proclaimed 'good drivers' claiming that with their level of preperation nothing would have happened, usually the same group that claim that they have never been in an accident. Accidents just happen around them as other cars have to take evasive action to avoid them doing 20 on an 100k bit of road.

 

Then there are the x is not a factor crowd, it was all y's fault, usually policy makers and police looking to use it to further their aganda.

 

The truth is that everything is a factor, speed, driver skill, conditions, types of car, types and wear patterns of tires.

 

What exactly is the safe following distance in zero visibility, oh wait you mean you should be stopped,, in the middle of the motorway. Great, there are extraordinary conditions that are difficult or impossible to account for, was this one of those times, maybe, maybe not but all of this good driver, bad driver, slow driver, fast driver stuff is full on BS.

 

At least wait until the investigators have balmed it on whatever set of conditions they are attempting to claim are the absoloute cause of accidents this policy cycle.

[MK-2]

I would agree but we don't know people were doing that - they probably were but not all of them.

Point is shat happens, and to blame it on the motorists and their speed is just as knee jerk as the media saying there was a firework display so it must have been that.

 

I am not blaming speed as the only factor (as per my original post) I am saying that speed/tailgating are also an attributable factor

 

As per my previous posts, I am not blaming speed as the only factor, even the police are stating they will investigate speeding and tailgating, so if that is a knee jerk reaction, guilty as charged.

 

And again, I am not saying it MUST have been speed, I am saying that it could be a contributing factor. If 30 of the cars had slowed down and one HGV kept banging on at 80, he would probably wipe out a fair few cars. That wouldn't be saying ALL drivers were speeding, but it is saying that the difference between a crash involving 30 cars and a pileup with multiple fatalaties involving 30 cars could have speeding as a factor.

[MK-2]

The truth is that everything is a factor, speed, driver skill, conditions, types of car, types and wear patterns of tires.

That is the whole point I'm trying to make, everything is a factor...to purely say it is ONLY the firework smoke is just as bad as saying it is ONLY speeding.

[Pyroman]

The problem is that you're expecting that the drivers can see the pileup, if you're driving down a clear motorway at 70 and you see a patch of fog/somke/whatever and slow down to say 50, if there's a car or pileup or bale of hay in the road then you're going to hit it. You were not to know that lurking 10 feet into the cloud is a ruddy great big pileup and no ammount of slowing down or sensible driving is going to stop that

[MK-2]

Oh and no, I'm not a traffic accident investigator (as per my neg rep which i was fully expecting).

My humblest apologies for stating an opinion on something. perhaps we could also inform those in the union threads they are not politicians so have no right discussing union and government policy too.

 

Seriously this is what makes me sad about this site. Honest talk and opinion seem to be feared or loathed. Talk bad about Apple, Apple fans will hit you, talk bad about MS, MS fans hit you. Talk about something controversial without being a leading expert in the field, fire at will.

 

If I had just said "M5 crash - how sad" I'm sure it would have got to the same point in conversation of what exactly is to blame, I just wanted to actually discuss this.

And as I have stated from the first post, I am NOT blaming anything directly, merely saying speed could have been an additional factor.

[Pyroman]

Oh and no, I'm not a traffic accident investigator (as per my neg rep which i was fully expecting).

My humblest apologies for stating an opinion on something. perhaps we could also inform those in the union threads they are not politicians so have no right discussing union and government policy too.

 

Seriously this is what makes me sad about this site. Honest talk and opinion seem to be feared or loathed. Talk bad about Apple, Apple fans will hit you, talk bad about MS, MS fans hit you. Talk about something controversial without being a leading expert in the field, fire at will.

 

If I had just said "M5 crash - how sad" I'm sure it would have got to the same point in conversation of what exactly is to blame, I just wanted to actually discuss this.

And as I have stated from the first post, I am NOT blaming anything directly, merely saying speed could have been an additional factor.

 

And what you're getting is a discussion back, because you don't agree with what's being said doesn't mean this isn't a discussion.

 

P.s. it wasn't me who neg repped

[Guest Guest]

Oh and no, I'm not a traffic accident investigator (as per my neg rep which i was fully expecting).

 

Seriously? I'm feeling left out. I always get negged when talking about a sensitive topic

[MK-2]

And what you're getting is a discussion back, because you don't agree with what's being said doesn't mean this isn't a discussion.

 

P.s. it wasn't me who neg repped

 

I'm not bothered who gave it TBH. I also actually like the fact people are arguing both sides. What I don't like is the fact people seem to wade in with rep for things like this. Going by my rep comments logic of me not being an accident investigator, well neither is anyone else here, so all comments are opinion. But if people are going to be punished for giving their opinion, then the site becomes more "i'd best not say x about y in case i get neg repped".

[creese]

Seriously? I'm feeling left out. I always get negged when talking about a sensitive topic

 

If some people see a button, they feel compelled to push it.

 

I've only used it once, I got no real satisfaction out of it (that wasn't today by the way)

[Pyroman]

I'm not bothered who gave it TBH. I also actually like the fact people are arguing both sides. What I don't like is the fact people seem to wade in with rep for things like this. Going by my rep comments logic of me not being an accident investigator, well neither is anyone else here, so all comments are opinion. But if people are going to be punished for giving their opinion, then the site becomes more "i'd best not say x about y in case i get neg repped".

 

To be fair though that all depends on if you actually care about rep, by your post count and the fact you have nearly 150 thanked posts i'd say your rep score isn't particularly important vis-a-vis your importance and influence on the site

[tommej]

Oh and no, I'm not a traffic accident investigator (as per my neg rep which i was fully expecting).

My humblest apologies for stating an opinion on something. perhaps we could also inform those in the union threads they are not politicians so have no right discussing union and government policy too.

 

Seriously this is what makes me sad about this site. Honest talk and opinion seem to be feared or loathed. Talk bad about Apple, Apple fans will hit you, talk bad about MS, MS fans hit you. Talk about something controversial without being a leading expert in the field, fire at will.

 

If I had just said "M5 crash - how sad" I'm sure it would have got to the same point in conversation of what exactly is to blame, I just wanted to actually discuss this.

And as I have stated from the first post, I am NOT blaming anything directly, merely saying speed could have been an additional factor.

 

You come across quite confrontational when putting across your point which is probably why you were neg repped.

[Guest Guest]

I got no real satisfaction out of it

 

Maybe if I push your button?...

[MK-2]

You come across quite confrontational when putting across your point which is probably why you were neg repped.

 

i merely make a point, and try to be impartial. as i stated here, i have not said firework smoke isn't a factor, but have said speed could also be.....

[creese]

Maybe if I push your button?...

 

You wouldn't be the first...

[creese]

i merely make a point, and try to be impartial. as i stated here, i have not said firework smoke isn't a factor, but have said speed could also be.....

 

I think it was a freak unavoidable accident that will never be repeated. I believe several factors came together at the wrong time.

 

I do see a lot of backlash from this, especially if fireworks/or a bonfire is involved in the cause.

[localzuk]

The problem is that you're expecting that the drivers can see the pileup, if you're driving down a clear motorway at 70 and you see a patch of fog/somke/whatever and slow down to say 50, if there's a car or pileup or bale of hay in the road then you're going to hit it. You were not to know that lurking 10 feet into the cloud is a ruddy great big pileup and no ammount of slowing down or sensible driving is going to stop that

 

See, I'd still say 50 is far too fast in fog on a wet motorway at night. Interesting paper on this though here - http://www.lcurve.org/writings/Fog.pdf

 

Also, something that this makes me wonder - would this sort of thing have happened if cars all had automatic braking systems (ie. that use radar etc...)?

[garoc]

Hey Guys n Gals

 

Give MK-2 a break will ya's! He (going by the avatar) is fully entitled to his opinion, as are all of you! Until we are advised by whomever decides what was the cause, we aint gonna know! Perhaps the only person who can tell us exactly what happened, was one of the unfortunates that perished in such a tragic, and possibly avoidable accident....

 

If I can be frank, the Wifey & I regularly drive that stretch of the M5 visiting friends/Family in Nottingham, and bear witness to some quite horrendous acts of madness by some folk, men, women, old folk, Company Reps, van drivers, lorry drivers....you name it....all shapes and sizes.....absolute MUPPETS some of them!!. IMHO it was/is just a matter of time before one (or more) of those mindless, inconsiderate Mo-Fo's took others with them to an early grave!!

 

Harsh I know, and criticize/slag me off if you will, but just my observation & opinion!!

 

Further musings.....

You wouldn't give an 8 year-old an AK-47, so why give a 17 year-old a 3-series Beamer after passing his/her test 1st time driving a 1.2 fiesta/focus, and expect them to be the safest driver on the planet???

[creese]

Also, something that this makes me wonder - would this sort of thing have happened if cars all had automatic braking systems (ie. that use radar etc...)?

 

If it allowed for the unexpected, sudden stop, it would work. But nothing would move, very far anyway. It would only allow for a normal stopping distance plus a safety margin. If you look at video of jack-knifing lorries they do some unexpected movements.

[Pyroman]

See, I'd still say 50 is far too fast in fog on a wet motorway at night. Interesting paper on this though here - http://www.lcurve.org/writings/Fog.pdf

 

A

lso, something that this makes me wonder - would this sort of thing have happened if cars all had automatic braking systems (ie. that use radar etc...)?

 

50 was an example and as for radar braking, provided that it could "see" through the smoke and for a reasonable braking distance in front (i.e. the accident wasn't on a blind bend) then i don't see why they shouldn't work

[DT2]

I certainly think that this was a pretty unavoidable incident once the first vehicle 'tatered it. 0 visibility, even slowing to 50 would have helped little.

But once thing I'm certain of is this: We've all seen people driving like lunatics, tailgating doing 80 in the rain, fog, snow etc. They are out there, and we all know it. Sometimes it just doesn't matter how careful you are, or how slowly you drive, #### just happens.

It's not down to us to judge or blame, but there's nothing that says we can't debate, even have conflicting opinions. So, seriously, neg repping because someone's opinion is different from yours!?!

Motorway, fog, smoke, speed - #### will invariably happen! Remove all of the above variable factors and people still manage to cause issues.

I'm completely indifferent - as I'm sure are most of you. I can see 'reasons' why things like this happen, but I can also see how this could be absolutely unavoidable.

 

DT