The M5 crash

[MK-2]

A lot of debate raging over whether the fireworks display / bonfires nearby caused the accident.

Without wanting to sound too harsh, as I'm sure it is a terrible time for all families involved, but speed and distance have got to be a major contributor here.

According to one report, it said the initial accident happened and cars behind unable to stop in time hit them. Unable to stop meaning going too fast to stop in the current driving conditions.

If it was already foggy, surely you have adjusted your speed and distance already. If it suddenly becomes a lot darker, then shouldn't you drive even more cautiously?

 

I'm in no way saying this is the whole reason, but surely it does come in to play? There is even a report saying the Transport Secretary has said it is too early to be blaming speed for the accident; well no not really, if the driving conditions were already foggy and wet, surely one major factor would be speed?

 

If the fireworks were taken out of the equation, and it was just a foggy, wet night, what would be the reason for the crash?

 

As I said, I in no way mean to disrespect the families involved, but the media are doing a good job of whipping up a frenzy of hatred towards the fireworks display person.

[tommej]

I think it's a bit early to be jumping to conclusions, and I fully doubt anyone will be found ultimately responsible. Very sad for everyone involved.

[witch]

It may just be that whoever drove into the sudden fog/smokebank just didnt know what to do - and maybe braked too suddenly or swerved or something.

We came home on Friday night and drove into what seemed to be fog -it was just THERE out of nowhere - and it was white, not grey. Once you were in it though you could smell that it was smoke from a local bonfire.

[teejay]

I read an interview with one driver who was lucky enough to get through the carnage, apparently you just suddenly hit a dense wall of fog/smoke and you couldn't even see the front of the car, plus there was lot's of standing water with car/lorries skidding all over the place. Very scary and yes there 'may' be incidences of people driving too fast, but I certainly wouldn't be jumping to that conclusion at the moment.

[Pyroman]

From what i've seen of the news it wasn't foggy, that was the first thought, it was the cloud of smoke from the fireworks. I can see where this is all leading though as they'd started on BBC news last night, Speed Limits On Motorways. Speed doesn't kill, it's the wrong applcation of speed that kills in certain circumstances

[DT2]

I think it's a bit early to be jumping to conclusions, and I fully doubt anyone will be found ultimately responsible. Very sad for everyone involved.

 

I agree, however an accident a number of years ago on the m6 (I think) was in similar circumstances (said bonfire smoke instead being fog) and the contributing factor there was drivers being unable to see well enough ahead to be able to stop. MK-2 has a very valid point - people generally do not adjust their driving speed to match the conditions. That is not pointing the finger, just a mere observation without blaming any one.

 

DT

[MK-2]

It may just be that whoever drove into the sudden fog/smokebank just didnt know what to do - and maybe braked too suddenly or swerved or something.

We came home on Friday night and drove into what seemed to be fog -it was just THERE out of nowhere - and it was white, not grey. Once you were in it though you could smell that it was smoke from a local bonfire.

 

The reports say that one (possibly two) lorries jackknifed which would have been a big factor yes

[pcstru]

There is even a report saying the Transport Secretary has said it is too early to be blaming speed for the accident; well no not really, if the driving conditions were already foggy and wet, surely one major factor would be speed?

 

What, the transport secretary who recently said he wanted to raise the speed limit to 80mph on motorways? Surely not!

 

Sure speed and most importantly speed appropriate for the conditions AND distance to the vehicle infront are THE main factors. No one at the fireworks display was driving the cars and it's always possible that some hazzard will manifest itself. Safety is ALWAYS the responsibility of the drivers of the vehicles.

[LosOjos]

the media are doing a good job of whipping up a frenzy of hatred towards the fireworks display person.

 

I thought that this morning too - bet the poor guy feels absolutely awful!

 

Presumably a public fireworks display would have required a H&S assessment, which must have been deemed OK for it to go ahead... why not blame whoever said it would be safe?

 

I don't really mean that, but it seems that the media always needs to blame some individual for every problem and it's frustrating.

[MK-2]

I don't know why people are quoting me as "jumping to conclusions" when I'm not. I asked if speed and distance were a factor? I didn't say that is the only thing that killed them.

One article I read quoted "it is thought two lorries jackknifed behind the initial accident, and vehicles behind them presumably unable to stop in time then piled up behind the lorries".

If you see an accident in front of you and are unable to stop in time, likelihood is you are going too fast for the current conditions.

 

Also, according to the police in that area: "We do believe that while there was fog and it was difficult conditions in the area...there was very significant smoke across the carriageway. That, in effect, caused a bank similar to a fog bank, which was very distracting and very difficult to drive through."

So it was foggy, the smoke just added to it.

 

I am not jumping to any conclusion, but my question still stands.....if the firework smoke is taken out of the equation, what does the pile up get attributed to?

[tommej]

If the firework smoke is taken out of the equation, what's to say there would have been a crash at all?

[DT2]

I don't know why people are quoting me as "jumping to conclusions" when I'm not. I asked if speed and distance were a factor? I didn't say that is the only thing that killed them.

One article I read quoted "it is thought two lorries jackknifed behind the initial accident, and vehicles behind them presumably unable to stop in time then piled up behind the lorries".

If you see an accident in front of you and are unable to stop in time, likelihood is you are going too fast for the current conditions.

 

Also, according to the police in that area: "We do believe that while there was fog and it was difficult conditions in the area...there was very significant smoke across the carriageway. That, in effect, caused a bank similar to a fog bank, which was very distracting and very difficult to drive through."

So it was foggy, the smoke just added to it.

 

I am not jumping to any conclusion, but my question still stands.....if the firework smoke is taken out of the equation, what does the pile up get attributed to?

A: The general public's inability to correctly adapt their driving technique to the given road conditions.

 

[MK-2]

Just as an addition, this is an eye-witness quote:

 

The thing that made me realise how bad it was, was you could hear the thud of cars hitting into lorries. One car overtook us going at about 60 or 70 miles an hour and just crashed straight into a lorry

 

So yes, if the firework display caused the initial accident, they could be held accountable. But at the same time, if driving at night in fog and you overtake at 70mph......

[teejay]

 

I am not jumping to any conclusion, but my question still stands.....if the firework smoke is taken out of the equation, what does the pile up get attributed to?

 

It gets attributed to the firework smoke, you are jumping to conclusions that the drivers weren't driving at safe speeds and distances to cope with the the small amount of fog, adding in a solid wall of smoke suddenly changed those conditions.

[creese]

Hitting a wall of fog and smoke is incredibly disorientating. It would be sudden, unless everyone drive everywhere at 20 MPH in case they come across this type of freak condition, and most likely unavoidable.

[MK-2]

It gets attributed to the firework smoke, you are jumping to conclusions that the drivers weren't driving at safe speeds and distances to cope with the the small amount of fog, adding in a solid wall of smoke suddenly changed those conditions.

 

Right, OK, I see I'm getting nowhere fast here!

 

Let us say an accident happens tomorrow, two cars collide and come to a stop. Usually that is where an accident will end. Now if 20 other cars, vans and lorries pile up into the back of it, what is the cause of the pileup (not the initial accident)?

The initial accident may well have been caused by the fireworks (and for those saying stop jumping to conclusions about speed, how about you stop jumping to conclusions about firework smoke!), but the police have already stated they are investigating the possibility of excessive speed and tailgating.

So should they just call off their investigations as it's blindingly obvious only the smoke is at fault here, let us hang the person responsible and carry on?

 

Just one other thing (Columbo style)....if the heavens suddenly opened and it pelted it down with hail and rain as it sometimes does, that is a sudden change in driving conditions. If you were then to hit the car in front at full speed, are you blaming the clouds?

Edited November 7, 2011 by MK-2

[MK-2]

Hitting a wall of fog and smoke is incredibly disorientating. It would be sudden, unless everyone drive everywhere at 20 MPH in case they come across this type of freak condition, and most likely unavoidable.

 

It was already dark, foggy and wet, so I would have assumed a slower speed would already be taken.

[creese]

It was already dark, foggy and wet, so I would have assumed a slower speed would already be taken.

 

How much slower?

[Guest Guest]

No one at the fireworks display was driving the cars and it's always possible that some hazzard will manifest itself. Safety is ALWAYS the responsibility of the drivers of the vehicles.

 

Oh come off it. If I stood on a bridge and dropped a brick on your car while you drove under it causing a massive pileup it would be your fault?

 

 

Hitting a wall of fog and smoke is incredibly disorientating. It would be sudden, unless everyone drive everywhere at 20 MPH in case they come across this type of freak condition, and most likely unavoidable.

 

^ This

 

 

 

I was driving at rush hour over a very busy roundabout at rush hour. The nursing home just next to the roundabout had decided rush hour was the most appropriate time to be having a bonfire and firework display, launching the rockets away from the home and over the roundabout. The smoke from the bonfire was also blowing over the roundabout...

 

Before I even heard about the M5 crash and its possible cause I thought the organisers of the firework display at the nursing home should be shot.

Edited November 7, 2011 by Guest

[MK-2]

How much slower?

 

I'm sorry is this a theory test for me, or are you suggesting you wouldn't have slowed down?

 

One other point to note, I'm not suggesting EVERY driver there was speeding or tailgating, some, maybe all might have stopped in time, but for the unlucky few who had someone speeding or tailgating behind them, they are still in danger.

So before anyone starts getting all "holier than thou" with me, even if YOU were driving at an appropriate speed, if I'm still speeding behind you, chances are I'm wiping you out as I hit you.

[MK-2]

Oh come off it. If I stood on a bridge and dropped a brick on your car while you drove under it causing a massive pileup it would be your fault?

 

And if you drove into fog at 70mph and caused a massive pileup, are you blaming god? (fog as in general, not firework smoke, so we are both being impartial to the original topic)

 

Also, in answer to your question, no, not your fault. But if you drop a brick through a window, you have affected one car. If the people behind that car fail to slow down in time then THEY are the pileup, not you.

[Guest Guest]

And if you drove into fog at 70mph and caused a massive pileup, are you blaming god? (fog as in general, not firework smoke, so we are both being impartial to the original topic)

 

Also, in answer to your question, no, not your fault. But if you drop a brick through a window, you have affected one car. If the people behind that car fail to slow down in time then THEY are the pileup, not you.

 

 

Point is we don't know there was fog, certainly not a bank of smoke like is suspected. As the other post said sometimes banks of fog/smoke are very sudden and incredibly disorientating. This isn't the first pile up on a major road which has been attributed to people having fires in inappropriate places.

[creese]

I'm sorry is this a theory test for me, or are you suggesting you wouldn't have slowed down?

 

One other point to note, I'm not suggesting EVERY driver there was speeding or tailgating, some, maybe all might have stopped in time, but for the unlucky few who had someone speeding or tailgating behind them, they are still in danger.

So before anyone starts getting all "holier than thou" with me, even if YOU were driving at an appropriate speed, if I'm still speeding behind you, chances are I'm wiping you out as I hit you.

 

If it had been foggy I personally would have been off at the first junction.

 

Would I have slowed down, I don't know. As I said, it's 'incredibly' disorientating. Unless you have experienced a complete and sudden White-out you have no way of knowing.

[MK-2]

Point is we don't know there was fog

 

Apart from pretty much all news sites having some form of quote stating there was fog.

I don't disagree that a sudden fog/smoke bank would be very disorientating, but if it is shown there was fog and ground water, then wouldn't you hope that cars and lorries were already a safe distance from each other even before this bank of smoke hit?

If you were doing 70mph in fog and sitting a few feet from the car in front, then even in broad daylight your chances of stopping before hitting them are slim. That is all I'm saying, I am not blaming speed as the only factor (as per my original post) I am saying that speed/tailgating are also an attributable factor

[pcstru]

Oh come off it. If I stood on a bridge and dropped a brick on your car while you drove under it causing a massive pileup it would be your fault?

 

I was going to add "unless a plane falls on you from above" but thought no one would be quite that pedantic. I should have known...