[news] On the spot fines for bad driving

[gshaw]

I find this slightly worrying as you could well end up with police officers choosing to stretch the limits of "bad driving" in order to get their quotas up for the day in the same way they do with hidden speed cameras just after the limit changes etc.

 

If it means the idiots who tailgate because I refuse to break the 70mph limit get fined it might not be such a bad thing though...

[GrumbleDook]

This is a strange thing really ... folk moan that police don't target problem spots ... and then when they do folk comment that they are only ever doing the 'bad roads' ... damned if they do, damned if they don't.

 

It is also worth looking at the application of this for all aspects of careless driving (which it is likely to include). There is already clear laws and rulings on the use of mobile devices whilst driving, but don't forget that if you are not in full control of your vehicle due to things like unscrewing the top off a bottle of coke, unwrapping and eating a sandwich, fiddling with the radio, etc ... then you will also be dealt with. The key thing to remember is that this is if you are not in full control of your car. If you are then it is unlikely that you will be stopped.

[CHR1S]

We as humans make mistakes, I just worry that an honest mistake could gain you 3 points and a fine.

[MK-2]

We as humans make mistakes, I just worry that an honest mistake could gain you 3 points and a fine.

 

being half an inch from the car in front of you or dropping into the left hand lane to blaze past someone isn't an honest mistake. Main reasons would be impatience or arrogance (not in all cases but i'd say 99%) but it isn't a mistake

[GrumbleDook]

Honest mistakes are something you learn from. The proposed plan is to deal harsher with repeat offenders as well as to allow police to use opportunities to get people who make 'honest mistakes' onto educational courses. Police Officers will still be expected to apply discretion and there should be safeguards in place to stop it from becoming part of a target culture.

 

Remember that an honest mistake can still get someone killed.

[mats]

If we policed the roads properly they would be much more pleasant places. Every day I see people driving like it's a basic human right and who don't give a hoot what happens outside their tin box - mobiles, speeding, inconsiderate parking, harassment of cyclists, lack of awareness & anticipation, light jumping. Mr Hammonds latest idea is more about soundbites then anything realistic - don't forget he stopped the "war" on the motorist.

[HC_Netman]

It will only be fully trained Traffic Officers that are able to give on the spot fines and also I am led to believe they are no longer 'target driven' this should avoid anyone trying to make their quota! I just hope that the Traffic officers apply common sense to this - If someone is doing 50 on a dual carriageway in the right hand lane while the left is completely clear then I would fully justify undertaking as the driver in the right hand lane is clearly the one causing the problem.

[Guest Guest]

At first I thought "brilliant, there are some terrible drivers around and just because they don't get caught speeding..." but then I remembered how bent our police constabulary is...

 

BBC News - Cleveland Police Authority investigated

BBC News - Middlesbrough man wins police compensation case

Police officer 'fitted me up' says Asian man compensated by Cleveland Police &#40From The Northern Echo)

Police Hid Truth

[sippo]

They say no undertaking...well, if I'm doing 70 on the inside lane, and come accross a middle lane driver doing 60 and not moving, I'm staying where I am. It's more dangerous for me to cross three lanes and back. Would the middle lane driver be punished for not moving accross whilst not overtaking?!!

[Andrew_C]

I'm staying where I am. It's more dangerous for me to cross three lanes and back.

In general circumstances, no. It is far more likely that he will wake up and move to the correct lane, than it is for you to have an accident if you sensibly overtake him. If you fling yourself across several lanes, blast past him, and fling yourself back to lane one (however tempting it might be) all bets are off.

 

That said, my local stretch of the M27 has been "upgraded" by having 4 lanes. A very large number of drivers cannot cope with this concept. Getting into lane 3 far too early for the branch to Portsmouth, joining from the M3 and lunging for lane 4 etc.

[MK-2]

They say no undertaking...well, if I'm doing 70 on the inside lane, and come accross a middle lane driver doing 60 and not moving, I'm staying where I am. It's more dangerous for me to cross three lanes and back. Would the middle lane driver be punished for not moving accross whilst not overtaking?!!

 

i think thats more in line with normal driving. such as on a dual carriageway, if the outside lane is slowing but the inside lane isn't, you wouldnt expect the inside lane to slow down more.

[GrumbleDook]

Technically, remaining in the middle lane (an overtaking lane, in fact) when it is proving unsafe to other drivers is already enough for the Police to pull the vehicle over. In the real world application of this you would be expected to cross from the left hand lane, through both overtaking lanes, to pass this vehicle.

 

There are several reasons why a vehicle may stay in the middle lane which may be deemed reasonable. These include keeping the left-hand lane free at junctions to allow for vehicles to freely move on and off the motorway (and this applies to other multi-carriageway roads), they are aware that there are likely to be slow moving vehicles in that lane which are not visible in the near distance (usually shown by signs or vehicles with notification and warning signs / alarms) and if there is a variable speed limit applied to different lanes. There are others but these tend to be most common.

[Quatermass]

Tailgaters are definitely my No.1 hate. I've no problem with boy racers as such - not my style but what the hell - but when some feckwit tries to push ME to break the limit and potentially get points, that drives me insane. Enough testosterone overload to try and shunt me along but not enough to just overtake me and feck off into the sunset. ARGH

[MK-2]

In the real world application of this you would be expected to cross from the left hand lane, through both overtaking lanes, to pass this vehicle.

 

i always thought that wasn't the case (not that i've ever had to do it). i thought that if driving in a 3 lane motorway in the left lane and the middle lane started to slow for some reason, you didnt have to move over two lanes to pass them, as it wasn't you undertaking in the sense of changing lane specifically to pass them, it was the traffic flow causing a slowdown.

so you could carry on driving in the left lane at your same speed as you aren't undertaking you are staying in the same lane. if a driver from right hand lane then cuts over two lanes to go faster, thats a different story

[firefox_2006]

I don't think it will be too long until a mandatory re-test is issued to "refresh" driving ability every ten years, this would certainly weedle out all the bad drivers amongst us.

[pshuttle]

Tailgaters are definitely my No.1 hate. I've no problem with boy racers as such - not my style but what the hell - but when some feckwit tries to push ME to break the limit and potentially get points, that drives me insane. Enough testosterone overload to try and shunt me along but not enough to just overtake me and feck off into the sunset. ARGH

 

Too true. But it is when the individual in front is going unreasonably/unjustifiably slow and it is not safe to overtake that really gets me angry (although I still do not tailgate). It is not like I drive an aggressive car either with a Rover 75 diesel being my current mode of transport.

[MK-2]

I don't think it will be too long until a mandatory re-test is issued to "refresh" driving ability every ten years, this would certainly weedle out all the bad drivers amongst us.

 

but what do you re-test? if its going to be postition of hands on the wheel and all that again i suspect over 95% of people would fail. surely something needs to be tested that takes into account you have driven for 10 years so they need to target specific things, not just make you do a driving test again

[GrumbleDook]

i always thought that wasn't the case (not that i've ever had to do it). i thought that if driving in a 3 lane motorway in the left lane and the middle lane started to slow for some reason, you didnt have to move over two lanes to pass them, as it wasn't you undertaking in the sense of changing lane specifically to pass them, it was the traffic flow causing a slowdown.

so you could carry on driving in the left lane at your same speed as you aren't undertaking you are staying in the same lane. if a driver from right hand lane then cuts over two lanes to go faster, thats a different story

 

The section of the Highway Code is 268. The key part of this is "In congested conditions" so this is also open to the discretion of the Police, but if you are travelling at 60+mph then it is hard to call it congested.

[Andrew_C]

if you are travelling at 60+mph then it is hard to call it congested.

If the 3rd lane is full of cars going 60ish, the middle lane is full of cars doing 40, and no one is in the inside lane, I'll use it and carefully pass the whole dopey pack of them at something sensible (very carefully). This is my normal commute!

[mats]

I don't think it will be too long until a mandatory re-test is issued to "refresh" driving ability every ten years, this would certainly weedle out all the bad drivers amongst us.

 

That would be very sensible. However, Quentin Wilson, Clarkson, Ed King (AA) and the tabloids would shout "It's WAR on the motorist!" and the government would quickly back down (whilst ignoring the human cost of their action).

[GrumbleDook]

Re-test ever 10 year? Make it 5 or 3! As for people not doing things the way they should and having to take that into account ... surely that is proving the reason why there should be re-tests ... get people back to driving properly.

 

You could make it longer for those who have taken their advanced test.

[skunk]

A re-test should be related to accidents/points, just like insurance. If you want to know who the good drivers are ask a capitalist system which is based on analysing the risk a driver represents to their profits.

 

The only controvesy in this report is the fine/points being awarded without due process. Under normal circumstances the police do not prosecute or impose penalties, the CPS prosecutes and the judiciary impose the penalties. The story does not mention whether you can appeal the on-the-spot fines/points. If not the system is open to abuse. I am unsure about the police being the prosecutor, jury and executioner, even though I am in complete support of our, much better than most places, police force.

[gshaw]

Points shouldn't be allowed to be handed out on the spot as it only takes one police officer with a bad attitude to ruin your license. Fines are one thing but something that hikes up your insurance and could even lead to a ban for four trivial offences is just wrong imo.

[GrumbleDook]

On the spot fines are contestable. If you feel you have been dealt with unfairly then complain. If it stands up then you may have been in a grey area about how you were driving so the answer is not to get into that grey area to start with.

[pshuttle]

Let us not forget that although the number of vehicles on the road has increased dramatically over the last thirty years, the number of accidents has decreased dramatically - there will always be some risk with motoring.