Police pulling man out of wheelchair

[somabc]

see this thread http://www.edugeek.net/forums/general-chat/67616-disabled-protester-interview.html

 

That video was already mentioned in this thread (by me!)

 

http://www.edugeek.net/forums/general-chat/67579-police-pulling-man-out-wheelchair.html#post603490

[localzuk]

I wasn't putting words in your mouth Witch. You've read that all wrong. What I was saying is that when somebody is being a pain and a threat a wheelchair is an obstacle to the officers, and more so a possible weapon to the threat. Their prime objective is to lower the threat - they can worry about the wheelchair after.

 

If an able bodied person is being a threat, you disable them by getting them to the floor and restraining them. That is exactly the same as removing a wheelchair user from the wheelchair.

 

I've seen cop shows where a persons pants have come down when being arrested, but because he is kicking and screaming the police have to worry about restraining him before they can restore his dignity.

 

Ok, so next time police officers have a protester with a false leg causing them trouble, they should take it off him and drag him away. Because obviously, it is an obstacle to the officers and more so, a possible weapon!

 

See how absurd it all sounds?

[Guest Guest]

Ok, so next time police officers have a protester with a false leg causing them trouble, they should take it off him and drag him away. Because obviously, it is an obstacle to the officers and more so, a possible weapon!

 

See how absurd it all sounds?

 

Not very Amputee alleges G20 police ripped off his prosthetic leg | Posted Toronto | National Post

[Hightower]

Ok, so next time police officers have a protester with a false leg causing them trouble, they should take it off him and drag him away. Because obviously, it is an obstacle to the officers and more so, a possible weapon!

 

See how absurd it all sounds?

 

Yes. I also expect the officers to unzip his trousers, pull them down, and undo all the clips to remove it. If they have time they should also remove his sock and return it to the owner, but not his shoe as that might be used as a weapon. While they are down there they may as well give him a bit oral relief too.

 

On the other hand, if the leg came away by accident - the police should surely hand it back to the owner so he can beat them over the head with it.

 

What an absurd come back that was localzuk. You really are losing your touch - I mean I used to respect your arguments, now you've just made me spit my tea out in a fit of laughter. I hope you come back all the stronger after your Christmas break.

[localzuk]

Not very Amputee alleges G20 police ripped off his prosthetic leg | Posted Toronto | National Post

 

Classy. My view would be that every officer there should be sacked and prosecuted. But that's just me...

[localzuk]

Yes. I also expect the officers to unzip his trousers, pull them down, and undo all the clips to remove it. If they have time they should also remove his sock and return it to the owner, but not his shoe as that might be used as a weapon. While they are down there they may as well give him a bit oral relief too.

 

On the other hand, if the leg came away by accident - the police should surely hand it back to the owner so he can beat them over the head with it.

 

What an absurd come back that was localzuk. You really are losing your touch - I mean I used to respect your arguments, now you've just made me spit my tea out in a fit of laughter. I hope you come back all the stronger after your Christmas break.

 

A wheelchair is an extension of a disabled person's body. Without that wheelchair they are either unable to move, are in severe pain when moving, or are only able to move very short distances. Else, they wouldn't have it!

 

To remove a wheelchair from such a person is in my mind the same as removing a prosthetic limb from someone.

 

If you think my extension is an act of reductio ad absurdum, so be it, I disagree. Maybe my brain is still frazzled from the flu though...

 

The police have a duty to everyone - not just the buildings they are protecting, but also to the health, safety and well being off the protesters. They can use reasonable force (which to me is defined as the minimum amount needed to get the job done, and no more) in what they do, but doing this is way beyond reasonable to me.

[Pyroman]

That video was already mentioned in this thread (by me!)

 

http://www.edugeek.net/forums/general-chat/67579-police-pulling-man-out-wheelchair.html#post603490

 

Sorry wasn't pointing out the video, there were 2 threads saying basically the same thing but the other one seemed to be more active.

[AyatollahPies]

I wouldn't be surprised if there is a H&S ruling or some other stupid red tape that forces the Police to remove people from Wheel chairs, rather than pushing them out of the way.

 

I know someone that drives disabled people to and from schools, and you would not believe what they are not allowed to do. Due to a ridiculous rule, if a person slips, you are not to try to stop them, as they may injure you on the way down, or pull you down with them. I imagine this is due to the lovely no win no fee culture that Gordy allowed to infest and prosper.

 

Welcome to modern Britain folks.

[aerospacemango]

Welcome to modern Britain folks.

 

One of the good things about our country is that if you don't like what's happening here, you can always choose to move abroad.

[AyatollahPies]

One of the good things about our country is that if you don't like what's happening here, you can always choose to move abroad.

 

You could just as easily direct that comment at those that are protesting.

[aerospacemango]

Yep....very true....

 

But I have a wife who is a Health and safety Officer, and a lot of what is pedalled as

H&S ruling or some other stupid red tape

is actually there to protect people.

 

For instance....

 

Due to a ridiculous rule, if a person slips, you are not to try to stop them, as they may injure you on the way down, or pull you down with them.

 

Do you not think this is more to do with common sense than any ambulance-chasing lawyers/Accidents4You website? 1 person gets injured in a fall.....Why put someone else in danger? If you WANT to try and stop someone falling, good for you...but don't expect the Council to pick up your health bill.

 

But that's away from the OP....

[GrumbleDook]

A few things about controlling chair users in hostile or potentially hostile situations.

If the chair user is intentionally placing themselves or others in harm's way then reasonable action can be taken to remove them from the situation ... and so we discuss whether it was reasonable action or not.

The removal can be with or without the chair depending on whether the chair is a hazard to the user, the general public in the police (usually considered in that order).

If the removal is down to an arrest the majority of the above still holds apart from where it is clear the chair user is using the chair as a weapon (ie to inflict damage to person or property) or there is the risk that the chair may have been modified. It is reasonable for the chair to be taken away from the suspect (once under arrest they can be termed a suspect in a purely legal sense ... or they can be termed the arrestee ... but that is a mouthful and sometimes open to being contested but that is again another conversation) so the arrest can take place, but the police should take all reasonable actions to still protect the health of the suspect. If the suspect has been seen not using the chair then a reasonable judgement could be made that they are a chair user, but not 100% chair dependent.

 

From the side of the chair user you can do a lot to protect yourself during a protest from unfair treatment.

You can strap yourself to the chair to prevent removal. This can lead to inappropriate handling by the police to remove you and could result in a larger number of police having to deal with you then any other single protestor.

When approached by the police you should grab the wheels of your chair to make it difficult to be moved. Screams of "Mind my fingers" and other such things discourage you being moved due to the risk of your injury.

Always turn sidewards to teh Police so that should anyone push or shove you have a lower chance of being toppled over. Where possible wear protective headgear so that should you 'tip' backwards you protect your head. This also protects you from eager fellow protestors hitting you with rucksacks, etc.

Surround yourself with young, female protestors for maximum outrage if you are accosted / arrested / assaulted.

 

Both of the above are paraphrased from events I have been to to support the work of chair users in protests and to learn how to deal with chair users in protests.

It is *never* black and white.

[aerospacemango]

Personally, wheelchair or not, I'd surround myself with young, female, protestors!

 

[strawberry]

he was part of a group causing mayhem. People should lose their human rights when theyre doing stuff like that, the first thing to do should be to protect the innocent public who know how to behave, second protect those trying to control the problem and lastly to protect the people causing the problem. he was their of his own free will

[AyatollahPies]

Yep....very true....

 

But I have a wife who is a Health and safety Officer, and a lot of what is pedalled as is actually there to protect people.

 

 

And that was precisely my point. There is probably a rule to protect the safety of Officers whilst dealing with the those in wheel chairs.

[DrummerBoy]

You could just as easily direct that comment at those that are protesting.

 

Yep, fully agree, plus if this protest happended anywhere (and I do mean anywhere) else inthe world there would have been watercannon and CS gas used to disperse the crowd.

 

Despite their failings we still have the best Police force in the world (IMO), who do an incredable job, unarmed, against a rising tide of violent conduct. Just note the copper who had his throat slashed yesterday on a bus ticket stop.

 

If you go a protest with an intention to cause public disorder (readin ghis blog that WAS his intention), you then assault people, breach conditions of the march and cause public disorder, and other crimes, then you reap what your actions have sown. Hiding behind the flag of disability just does disservice to all the other, law abiding, disabled people (esp those that lost limbs fighting for your right to protest), and shows you for the coward you are.

 

Personnal responsibility folks, that's what it boils down to.

 

If Coppers were found to be behaving unprofessionally, then fine, use the appropriate measures to censure them (might be legal, might be disciplinary), but the protesters whould also be suitably brought to account.

 

Anyway Rant off, and relax!

[localzuk]

he was part of a group causing mayhem. People should lose their human rights when theyre doing stuff like that, the first thing to do should be to protect the innocent public who know how to behave, second protect those trying to control the problem and lastly to protect the people causing the problem. he was their of his own free will

 

People should NEVER lose their human rights. What kind of bizarre concept is that. Innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. Saying they should lose their human rights when they're doing stuff like that turns the police into judge, jury and executioner - something our legal system has spent hundreds of years preventing.

 

Human rights are a balancing act between each other. Where the balance lies is up to judges and juries, not the police.

[Gibbo]

Not sure if this has been posted or not, my net is crawling today and making it impossible to do anything:

 

Wheels Come Off Protester’s Complaint - Guy Fawkes' blog

Jody Macinytre, radical pro-Palestine supporter and sufferer from cerebral palsy has made much hay of the fact he was dragged out of his wheelchair by riot police at Thursday’s protests. Yet he has previously admitted to be coordinating breaking police lines. He claims on his blog he is a revolutionary yet spent a BBC interview declaring his innocence and denied live on Sky that he was in fact a revolutionary before going on to claim that the police had no reason to move him out of the way. However he has revelled in, and incited, violence on his website.

 

His argument is undone when a quick glance at his blog shows that he has been at the forefront of the protests so far at Westminster and managed to walk all the way up to the top of Millbank back in November, blogging that “It was an epic mission to the top. Nine floors; eighteen flights of stairs. Two friends carried my wheelchair, and I walked.” Macintyre can’t hide behind his disability when the police treat him like any other violent trespassing thug. It’s called equality…

 

UPDATE: Further pictorial evidence emerges of the police being as gentle as possible in moving Macintyre and in doing so the officers put themselves in personal danger from the hail of missiles. Here is a quote from Graham Mitchell the photographer “Mr McIntyre was in the front row of the crowd and in a very precarious position, especially as he is wheelchair bound. It was clear from my vantage point that the police moved him as gently as possible and in doing so the officers put themselves in personal danger from the hail of missiles. Once he had been moved away from the front line to a safe distance, the officers sat him on a low level wall. Mr McIntyre got up and started arguing with an officer. He was so wound up that he eventually tried to strike an officer and was only stopped from doing this due to the intervention of a famale passer-by.

[AyatollahPies]

Not sure if this has been posted or not, my net is crawling today and making it impossible to do anything:

 

Wheels Come Off Protester’s Complaint - Guy Fawkes' blog

 

Never let the truth get in the way of a good story.

[Sirbendy]

Grr...people like that really, REALLY yank my chain..if he's hiding behind being a spanner and crying "establishment oppression" on one hand whilst blatantly trying the system with the other, and using his condition as a publicity cry/crutch, he should get both barrels from the police. I can't STAND people who act like that - it gives others with the condition a bad rep.

 

And yes, I called him a spanner. I also am a bona-fide, certificate wielding spanner, so it's allowed. More of a leg dragger than knuckle dragger, but still essentially a spanner. Heh. Proud of it too.

[tommej]

What a turd

[somabc]

Never let the truth get in the way of a good story.

 

It's not really the truth is it? Seems like a right wing view? Is Guy Fawkes arguing that he does not need a wheelchair? If he was peacefully protesting they should not have moved him. If he was throwing missiles they should have arrested him.

[AyatollahPies]

It's not really the truth is it? Seems like a right wing view? Is Guy Fawkes arguing that he does not need a wheelchair? If he was peacefully protesting they should not have moved him. If he was throwing missiles they should have arrested him.

 

We don't know the truth, and probably won't get to know it, as the media on both ends of the political spectrum would prefer us all to argue amongst ourselves.