From RM CC3 to who?

[maestromasada]

We had a smilar desicion scenarion not long ago and decided to pay the premium and get CC4. The big cost of upgradign to CC4 are the licenses, but you also get for what you paid, peace of mind on my case and the fact that I dont' need to worry about for example in digging the GPOs of the DC to setup the members of a department who want to have the IE history kept for 10 days and not for 2, for example, with Type Manager is deadly easy.

You can't dismiss that, by choosing a vanilla installation, you are putting all the burden on your shoulders of configuring the network, create software restriction policies and ensure the security of the workstations is sealed (only admin should be able to run exe, disable temp folder and such). All these can be achieved usign vanilla mode, but is much harder and surely more time consuming. RM in the long term pay off, specially is you are thinking on leaving your post in the future, or retaring: how are you guys documenting the vanilla network you have been supported by years?

[jsnetman]

RM is a very good product in the right situation i.e the school does not have a NM or staff with sufficient experience to trouble shoot network problems. If a school does have an experienced NM/Senior Tech they are throwing money away with RM. If you are a school with a high priced and experienced NM and have RM what exactly is the NM doing, the NM is certainly not using there skills to the highest of their ability as RM are doing it all for them.

[synaesthesia]

How about Ranger? Ok, it's still RM to a point but only by name. Pretty much just GUI over a vanilla system however it's easy enough for the average joe to manage without the expense of CC systems. You'll be free therefore to expand on your own terms things like AV protection, server specs and what not and not lose out on functionality of things like Tutor, package management, user and station GPO management etc.

[bossman]

I'm not trying to be off the cuff here but my idea of why schools have RM and other management software is that they don't have a an experienced NM who can manage/install a network. Ok maybe you lack the experience or don't want to commit to the time to install the network, but you will save 10's of thousands with a vanilla system and like I say you can employ a freelance to come set it up, provide initial training and support.

 

I have ran a CC3 network for 8 years and believe me it is not because i lack the necessary skills and don't have the qualifications it is the best solution for my school which allows development in other areas which gives us a very balanced and reliable network which the school has appreciated.

It has taken our school from being one of the worst in the country at 19% A - Cs up to being one of the top 4% and this has been proven to be the network reliability and durability which has then given the students and staff the ability to communicate at all levels.

Mix in some Linux and hey presto the perfect setup almost as we are moving to CC4 this summer (have been commissioning it ourselves) Phase 3 is underway of the proof of concept and we are really looking forward to it.

It also wasn't that costly to move forward to CC4 as an early adopter so we have scored there as well so don't comment on things you really know very little about unless you have the proper facts to back it up.

I know certain schools who have gone Vanilla and had 4 networks in the past 8 years which must have cost them a fortune as 2 were outsourced to different companies one of which went bust.

RM I believe have had a very good input into school networks not with their hardware but the management software, agreed like CC3, CC4 has had teething problems just like Microsoft have had with releases of their software but all in all they have worked hard to progress issues and deal with them.

 

@jsnetman: this is not in anyway shape or form written to antagonise but to remind people that there is always something for everyone and it may not be to everyones taste but you pays your money and you takes your chance as in everything in life.

[irsprint84]

We had a smilar desicion scenarion not long ago and decided to pay the premium and get CC4. The big cost of upgradign to CC4 are the licenses, but you also get for what you paid, peace of mind on my case and the fact that I dont' need to worry about for example in digging the GPOs of the DC to setup the members of a department who want to have the IE history kept for 10 days and not for 2, for example, with Type Manager is deadly easy.

You can't dismiss that, by choosing a vanilla installation, you are putting all the burden on your shoulders of configuring the network, create software restriction policies and ensure the security of the workstations is sealed (only admin should be able to run exe, disable temp folder and such). All these can be achieved usign vanilla mode, but is much harder and surely more time consuming. RM in the long term pay off, specially is you are thinking on leaving your post in the future, or retaring: how are you guys documenting the vanilla network you have been supported by years?

 

I do document my network but its as vanilla as you can get if someone walked into my job they would work it out in a few days if they had any experience of a windows network ie GPO's with names like installOffice2007wSP2, installPrinterIT2, policyStudents servers with names like schoolname-dc-002, schoolname-pri-001, schoolname-web-001

[bossman]

With a managed system you don't need quite as much time as if there's a major issue you can walk away and leave somebody to dig away at it for you, that's what you're paying for in support fees and generally what you pay to have that to fall back on will be less than what you'd pay for somebody to work these extra hours. Swings and roundabouts!

 

I don't think so, we don't have anyone "dig away" at our network as we don't pay for support we manage everything in house just as we would a Vanilla system, we have practically built our new network platform and we don't have regular hours but what we do find time for is developing new ideas that really compliment our network and not overburden it and the staff. Its our customer focus that we concentrate on at this school and the saying "The customer is always right" goes along with our theory that a happy customer is a productive worker and vice versa.

The reason RM costs so much for some schools is that they buy everything with it including the hardware and support, that is the reason for all the extra cost.

[Edu-IT]

I don't think so, we don't have anyone "dig away" at our network as we don't pay for support we manage everything in house just as we would a Vanilla system, we have practically built our new network platform and we don't have regular hours but what we do find time for is developing new ideas that really compliment our network and not overburden it and the staff. Its our customer focus that we concentrate on at this school and the saying "The customer is always right" goes along with our theory that a happy customer is a productive worker and vice versa.

The reason RM costs so much for some schools is that they buy everything with it including the hardware and support, that is the reason for all the extra cost.

But what I am saying is in schools where there's only 10 hours of technician time a week and no movement on that, RM support can help when there's an issue that needs digging away at or provide a fix for the person to try when they're next on site.

[sparkeh]

@OP Have you outlined your issues to RM to see if they can help in any way? If you are prepared to dangle a 40k future investment under your account manager's nose (s)he might be able to work out a solution. If you are replacing your current servers then I guess the cost is for hardware and commissioning? Bear in mind that these servers could then be used for a future CC4 system and thus the hardware cost comes from your future 40k investment anyway is won't be an additional cost.

If the difference is then down to the commissioning cost of the CC3 servers to keep you going until the CC4 commissioning then they might be some wiggle room from RM on the cost. I find that account managers have a certain amount of play on the prices if you haggle and if you are close to a deal the senior managers can sometimes sort something out as well.

 

On a more general note, I do take offence at the suggestion that CCx is for people who can't run a vanilla network. I run CC3, CC4 and vanilla networks and am competent at each and know many skilled NMs and Techs who run CCx networks. Personally I enjoy running a CC4 network as it gives me more time to concentrate on developing other areas of the network than either my vanilla or CC3 sites allow.

[maark]

If you tell RM you are thinking of moving away then they will probably give you a lot of incentives to stay - certainly did at my last school when we ditched them :-)

[daz191]

RM will allow you to split the cost over 2 years, interest free (my account manager informed me of this this morning, as we are in a similar position). That makes the upgrade to CC4 much more manageable if it was just the initial price that's putting you off.

 

And as the others have said, keep haggling!!

[pagelad]

Ranger for Networks is ok if you want a mix of both.

 

You get all the handy tools like being able to distribute software over networks with very little effort, teh ability to manage user accounts in a friendlier manner.

 

It depends on the size of your installation but i do loads of school installations and it takes me around 12 hours to get it all installed, workstations images, users created etc.

 

The biggest benefit i find is you can use a lot of the vanilla features of windows alongside it, it doesnt just totally take over your network like CC3 \ 4 etc

[alan-d]

We used Ranger for a couple of years until I could get enough staff to go Vanilla. It's now owned by RM but as far as I know they are still a seperate entity.

[fafster]

Why not have a play with Learning Network Manager?

[powdarrmonkey]

There is no ongoing development and no support available for LNM.

[fafster]

There is no ongoing development and no support available for LNM.

 

Would there really be any issue with a lack of development?

[sparkeh]

Would there really be any issue with a lack of development?

 

You want to setup a brand new network based on an unsupported product?!

[fafster]

You want to setup a brand new network based on an unsupported product?!

 

I meant to have a play with it in order to set up a test environment. That way you can get used to Vanilla pretty easily.

[PiqueABoo]

::screams::

 

1) The terminology really sucks in this thread and I'm pretty sure none of you are running what's usually meant by "Vanilla" i.e. what you get on the installtion CD/DVD with no added extras. What everyone appears to be talking about is:

 

a) Do-It-Yourself (DIY) which has all the config and bits you added

b) Off-The-Shelf (OTS) which has all the config and bits someone else added.

 

And of course the OP want opinions on an OTS besides CC4.

 

2) If a DIY system require significantly more time to manage than a CCx then IT IS NOT A GOOD ONE and/or you're not nearly as clever as you think you are.

[irsprint84]

I dont really have anything at all 3rd party Server 2008 R2 has mostly everything I need all I think I have is WinInstall, UltraVNC thats it really

[shayes]

2) If a DIY system require significantly more time to manage than a CCx then IT IS NOT A GOOD ONE and/or you're not nearly as clever as you think you are.

Neither myself or my network manager have ever supported a "DIY" network, so we're not trying to claim we are clever. This is why we want an "OTS" network.

[DrCheese]

Neither myself or my network manager have ever supported a "DIY" network, so we're not trying to claim we are clever. This is why we want an "OTS" network.

Doesn't mean you shouldn't give it a try. Grab a few books, set up a few virtual machines and play. I'm not kidding when I say that it will take a week or two at most to get up to speed with it and it will save you a shed load of money in both the short and long term.

 

To be blunt, if anyone claiming to be a "network manager" can't grasp the concepts behind it, then they are in the wrong job! That's how easy it is.

 

To my knowledge you won't find anything other than RM if you want a managed AD, the entire concept is alien in the corporate world.

[irsprint84]

I got learn Windows server 2008 in 24 hours that all I needed to know! otherwise RM is the only way to go even CSE needs some Vanilla knowledge

[DrCheese]

I got learn Windows server 2008 in 24 hours that all I needed to know! otherwise RM is the only way to go even CSE needs some Vanilla knowledge

 

haha It's seriously possible if you put your mind to it, I think I spent an evening or so reading "mastering windows 2003 server" when I first learnt about active directory years ago and it was more than enough to get a grasp of the basics.

[irsprint84]

Funnily I m not joking! was quite a good book, not to come off badly but as NM you need to at least understand the concepts even if you dont know how to implement it

[Edu-IT]

I got learn Windows server 2008 in 24 hours that all I needed to know! otherwise RM is the only way to go even CSE needs some Vanilla knowledge

Bah! RM CCx still has a Windows Server backend! Do people think that RM craft their products to take away all the Windows Server related stuff? They don't... it's still there for you to get to and you still have to interact with it.