From RM CC3 to who?

[PiqueABoo]

Neither myself or my network manager have ever supported a "DIY" network, so we're not trying to claim we are clever. This is why we want an "OTS" network.

 

I didn't think you were, and what you want is probably sensible..

 

 

I'm not kidding when I say that it will take a week or two at most to get up to speed with it

 

..because this (and similar) is arrant nonsense. If you want a network that kinda-works-just then maybe, but if you want a good one e.g. in the same kind of ballpark as CC3 then it takes significantly longer to do from scratch - I reckon it's a minimum of 10 weeks to dot all the 'i's etc.

Edited June 10, 2010 by PiqueABoo

[gnordli]

I am pretty new to the education space. What are people using CC3 for? Is it for lab management or also for staff desktop management?

 

Geoff

[synaesthesia]

CC3 is a complete network management system handling everything from user and PC management to package deployment and software/update management. All of which can be done via AD/GPO however this, like CC4 has an easy to use GUI over the top - it's precisely that and it's collection of pre-compiled tools which make it one of the preferred methods of network management; especially when there is less of a permanent IT presence on site. It's one of a fair few similar solutions such as Ranger (also RM) and Viglen Classlink.

[irsprint84]

I didn't think you were, and what you want is probably sensible..

 

 

 

 

..because this (and similar) is arrant nonsense. If you want a network that kinda-works-just then maybe, but if you want a good one e.g. in the same kind of ballpark as CC3 then it takes significantly longer to do from scratch - I reckon it's a minimum of 10 weeks to dot all the 'i's etc.

 

I like RM but I m vanilla and I generally started from scratch all I needed to do was set up wds (1 day) Group policy settings (3/4 days) WininstallLE and packages (5 days) so about 2 weeks, which you d have to get RM to set up packaging etc.. so time about the same and this was by myself

[PiqueABoo]

all I needed to do was set up wds (1 day) Group policy settings (3/4 days) WininstallLE and packages (5 days) so about 2 weeks,

 

Fine, but I'm certain that isn't what I'd call a good one *especially* in the policy area where something apparently simple like locking down bits of MS Office i.e. knocking out menu options, can take a long time unless you've done it before or found it ready-made somewhere. I conservatively reckon at least 3 - 4 weeks to get a decent set of properly tested GPOs (with GPPs required for some bits), then there's start menu delivery, perhaps desktop delivery (if you sensibly don't let them save stuff there), printer delivery, folder/share structures and NTFS perms, OU structure, bulk user import, equivalents of things like privileged users, perhaps synchronisation for staff laptops, quotas to sort out, preferably MDT for deployment (which takes a while to grok) and regardless you need a complete driver library and probably for an eclectic bunch of h/w, preferably something better than native s/w deployment, WSUS to set up and so on and so forth..

 

Again, if you want a network that kinda-works-just then maybe, but if you want a good one e.g. in the same kind of ballpark (and where everything is there and just works from day one!) then from scratch there is no way you'll do it in two weeks *unless* you're essentially cloning one you made earlier.

[irsprint84]

Mine works perfectly and this is my first IT Manager job so I worked it out on the go and found group policy very easy you look down the list and it gives you a description of what it does disable or enable not exactly rocket science for Office you get the predefined ADM files, use 'google' and search for Microsoft Office GPO not particularly hard or time consuming

 

Start menu -> gpp = 1 hour

Printer -> install server, add to list, deploy group policy hmmm an hour

Offline files, click a few option in group policy 10 mins

Dont need MDT wds is sufficient

WSUS -> add role, sync downloads go group policy and add where client point too - 20 mins

 

As I said I learnt this as I went and did well within 2 weeks so I dont get your point

 

Im not one of those anti RM people, this is nothing against RM because its quite good but something with vanilla you seem to know jack about

Edited June 17, 2010 by irsprint84

[PiqueABoo]

use 'google' and search for Microsoft Office GPO

 

Have you ever used a control ID to knock out undesirable UI feature for a network with clueful hostile users? Ack, forget it - we can go round and round on this for ever so lets agree to disagree:

 

- Fresh to the job you can set up up perfect Windows system in a couple of weeks and you think I "know jack" about it.

 

- Meanwhile I've got 17 years of NT family admin, serious s/w dev for most of that period largely targeted at NT network/security/manglement, big roll-outs of fresh public-access proof systems since 95', enough security expertise to have been asked to help the NSA (US spooks) on their guidelines, have been rewarded for contributions to the "community" by the director of SAN etc., plus a thorough understanding of what the competition (CCx) have done, and I think a system in that ballpark that works perfectly from day one takes much longer and that maybe in 10 years time you'll get it.. although possibly not.

[irsprint84]

I m sure I m a better cyclist than you but I not trying to have a ego contest, I did it in two weeks not trying to be some big shot that you're trying to come off as. I have physically done it with ease within two weeks I m certain even a novice can as well.

 

Nothing works perfectly RM, CSE or Vanilla that is common sense, mine still has issues as everyone's network does, we wouldn't need network guys otherwise duh! but to setup a initial network takes two weeks max then develop as it goes

[PiqueABoo]

::whatever::

[DrCheese]

If you want a network that kinda-works-just then maybe, but if you want a good one e.g. in the same kind of ballpark as CC3 then it takes significantly longer to do from scratch - I reckon it's a minimum of 10 weeks to dot all the 'i's etc.

That's even more nonsense than what you accused me of.

Firstly, I was saying it would take around a week or two to learn Vanilla AD/Windows networking, not building an entire network.

Secondly I have no idea how you've come up with the 10 weeks idea to build a vanilla network at an average sized second school up to the level of a managed system.

I conservatively reckon at least 3 - 4 weeks to get a decent set of properly tested GPOs

Now I know your trolling. 3/4 weeks just on group policy?

Don't get me wrong, but your seriously taking the mick if you think building up a decent vanilla system takes as long as you are proclaiming.

Edited June 17, 2010 by DrCheese

[ijk]

That's even more nonsense than what you accused me of.

Firstly, I was saying it would take around a week or two to learn Vanilla AD/Windows networking, not building an entire network.

What is building a network Vs "learn Vanilla AD/Windows networking"? Cripes! I've been at it a few years and I learn something new frighteningly often. Knowing AD/Windows networking like you know your times-tables isn't going tosolve your problems or find your solutions.

Secondly I have no idea how you've come up with the 10 weeks idea to build a vanilla network at an average sized second school up to the level of a managed system.

Hmm. Yer man, we'll be in and out. Fsck 'em.

Now I know your trolling. 3/4 weeks just on group policy?

Don't get me wrong, but your seriously taking the mick if you think building up a decent vanilla system takes as long as you are proclaiming.

Group Policy isn't off the shelf - here is no M&S suit. It works for one place, it doesn't for another.

Hmm.

N

[Gibson335]

Shayes...

 

We were with CSE and now with Burconix. Have seen their software and are implementing it this year on our Admin network, just because it's user-friendly for the technicians and we now have a need for a deployment tool on that network as well.

 

Burconix are very good to work with, I've found. Flexible, and certainly not 'clock watchers' when they're on site.

[shayes]

Shayes...

 

We were with CSE and now with Burconix. Have seen their software and are implementing it this year on our Admin network, just because it's user-friendly for the technicians and we now have a need for a deployment tool on that network as well.

 

Burconix are very good to work with, I've found. Flexible, and certainly not 'clock watchers' when they're on site.

Thanks for that. I was very impressed with the Burconix chap that came out and had a chat to us (Andy Burgess), he seemed to know his stuff. However his quote has come back more than RM's, but to be fair he has future proofed for at least 4 years which is something RM haven't managed to do. The final decision doesn't rest with me unfortunately.

[Gibson335]

Yes, Andy Burgess is my contact as well. In providing you with 'future-proofing' (as much as that is possible) he'd doing what's best for you, even if it does mean coming in a little more expensive. You perhaps need to discuss TCO with those who make decisions at your place. I have worked with Andy now for 10 years and he has never steered me wrong.

[PiqueABoo]

Now I know your trolling.

 

"True knowledge exists in knowing that you know nothing."

 

he has future proofed for at least 4 years

 

I'm curious: In what sense? The only (not quite) 4 year anniversary I can think of is XP support stopping in April 2014, but in an ideal world a new system this year ought to be built on 2008 R2 to better support Windows 7, regardless of whether you still use XP for a while.

[shayes]

I'm curious: In what sense? The only (not quite) 4 year anniversary I can think of is XP support stopping in April 2014, but in an ideal world a new system this year ought to be built on 2008 R2 to better support Windows 7, regardless of whether you still use XP for a while.

Exactly, and if we stay with RM we can't have Server 2008 or 7/Vista.

[jsnetman]

Exactly, and if we stay with RM we can't have Server 2008 or 7/Vista.

If you go CC4 do you not get 2008r2 and win 7?

[Edu-IT]

Exactly, and if we stay with RM we can't have Server 2008 or 7/Vista.

They are working on 2008 R2 at the moment, it's in development.

 

CC4 SR2 brings Windows 7 support.

[shayes]

If you go CC4 do you not get 2008r2 and win 7?

No, RM do not currently support Server 2008 in any capacity.

 

You can have Windows 7 if you go to CC4, which we haven't got the funds to do. You can only have XP on CC3.

[Edu-IT]

No, RM do not currently support Server 2008 in any capacity.

 

You can have Windows 7 if you go to CC4, which we haven't got the funds to do. You can only have XP on CC3.

So, looks like Burconix is the only option for you?

[shayes]

So, looks like Burconix is the only option for you?

My boss is swaying back towards RM now, just because it's less hassel and less money. I'd rather go with Burconix as I think it would save us more money in the long run.

[ReverentCreature]

RM are almost finished testing their software on server 2008. Im building my computers to Windows 7 this summer as part of CC4 SR2 whcih is being releaseed free to all schools. Any computers that have Vista/XP Assurance licenses are licensed for Windows 7.

[shayes]

Sorry, but I just fell off my chair with the 40K for CC3 ??? Wha !!!

Id use that hard earned tax payers cash to get a new Technician and use a vanilla network.

 

Sorry ... but this is a prime example of why managed services are being thrust on school.

 

Shocked and stunned!

Schools could probably afford to pay that under a Labour government, and I think RM are going to get a big shock when they realise schools don't have money to burn anymore.

[djm968]

CSE used to be with my school dont use their client software! urgh! but generally their server setups are good using Xen server etc.. but I ve found it easier being Vanilla and that was for months by myself because I can go to technet or many places for help instead of relying on one source

 

Nooooooo sorry but I wouldn't touch them with barge pole. The installation at one of the Academies I was working with 18 months ago had to be ripped out. They went Vanilla in the end.

[irsprint84]

Nooooooo sorry but I wouldn't touch them with barge pole. The installation at one of the Academies I was working with 18 months ago had to be ripped out. They went Vanilla in the end.

 

I wouldnt either but the engineer they sent was very good and servers were generally good but why 32bit DC's Os at the time was beyond me! I love my vanilla network and wouldnt look back