Are ESS trying to make it harder to migrate away from to SIMS?

[paulkerton]

So, let me get this straight...

SIMS/ESS require you to pay for SQL Server licensing yourself, and not provide that process as part of the purchasing... and the data in the databases is the schools in it's own right... but they want to claim that they own the database infrastructure?

Cool, so you can license the database software as well then can't you ESS? *insert every facepalm gif you can imagine here*

[Aprice]

So, let me get this straight...

SIMS/ESS require you to pay for SQL Server licensing yourself, and not provide that process as part of the purchasing... and the data in the databases is the schools in it's own right... but they want to claim that they own the database infrastructure?

Cool, so you can license the database software as well then can't you ESS? *insert every facepalm gif you can imagine here*

 

Yeah, You've licenced the prerequisite software. IE Windows Server & SQL.

 

The database schema itself is their property, which the school licences under ESS's terms and accepted. one of which is apparently you must delete upon termination of the contract.

 

I suspect most enterprise software that runs on a Microsoft SQL or Oracle server for example has the same sort of terms.

 

Have to say I'd be nervous deleting a schools SIMS instance and all the backups of it, but if that's what the school has agreed to then the choice is to act as per the agreement or go rogue and not.

 

 

 

I do wonder what the rules are about migrations are, Are ESS actually obligated to make migration to another platform possible. I presume the CMA would step in if it was proved that it wasn't possible or reasonably practical to migrate from them legally?

 

If the approved methods really don't work and the CMA have to get involved surely ESS is just going to have to invest development time in moving customers off rather than working on improving the product.

[MYK-IT]

Latest from ESS...

 

Dear colleague,

 

I wanted to write to you personally to update you on the significant and exciting progress we have made in the delivery of our cloud offering SIMS Next Generation. I also wanted to address the inaccurate narrative that is being shared by other MIS vendors regarding the use of SIMS database backups for data migration when schools change provider.

Start using SIMS Next Generation now

 

ParentPay Group has already invested over £25 million in the development of SIMS Next Generation (SNG). SNG is our new look and has new features for SIMS in the cloud. Numerous new modules are live now and in use within UK schools with more coming every term. Better still, nearly all SIMS customers are entitled to use core SNG modules now at no additional cost as part of their existing ESS contract.

 

In the next three years, ESS expects to invest a further £55 million in SNG, FMS (finance) and the integration of ParentPay Group’s portfolio of leading payments, messaging and parental engagement products with SNG. This investment in continued innovation will ensure our customers benefit from using the leading products and services in the UK education sector.

 

SNG received a very positive reaction from schools at the Bett edtech show last month with everyone asking how they can get started using it. With SNG you can add innovative cloud capabilities to your existing SIMS systems today, with numerous additional features scheduled for delivery in 2024 and beyond.

Importantly, SNG works alongside and shares data seamlessly with your current SIMS software (on-premises SIMS 7 and SIMS Connected, our cloud hosted SIMS 7 platform). With SNG you get to move to the cloud at a pace that works for you with no disruption, no data loss and no large-scale retraining.

 

95% of schools already using SIMS Next Gen rate it as either ‘super easy’ or ‘easy’ to use.

 

Plus, we are delivering completely new functionality such as performance dashboards with SIMS Group Analytics for MAT leaders, and Seating Plans and Fire Registers for teachers and administrators – all available this term.

 

For SIMS Connected customers the great news is you are ready to use SIMS Next Gen, and we will write to you shortly, so you and your colleagues can start to use the software.

 

For eligible on-premises customers we will be in touch shortly to advise on the easy process of onboarding and starting to use the software.

 

The facts on safe and approved data migration if you change MIS

 

If a school decides to change MIS we believe they need a safe, reliable and proper way to move their data. It is their data after all. That’s why we have supported schools, partners and other MIS vendors with the tools and method they need to do this.

 

For more than a decade there has been a technical method to extract data from SIMS using Application Programming Interfaces (APIs). ESS partners use these APIs to extract billions of data items from SIMS every month.

You can find information on the safe and approved ways to extract data from SIMS or FMS https://customer.support-ess.com/csm?id=kb_article_view&sysparm_article=KB0054129.

 

It is not necessary, safe or right for any third party to ask schools to provide a copy of their SIMS database during a migration. It is irresponsible of any MIS vendor to ask schools to do this.

 

It is not safe because scripts or programs written by others to extract data directly from a SIMS database can’t guarantee the integrity and accuracy of the data they extract.

 

It’s not right because a SIMS database contains over 1.5 million lines of ESS program code and other valuable ESS Intellectual Property (IP). These companies have no need or right to obtain or use it, and to do so infringes ESS’s IP. Some of these companies are now saying they will cover a school’s legal costs on some unspecified basis should wrongful behaviour be established. This is an irresponsible and unethical way to behave and suggests that these companies know that their actions infringe ESS’s IP.

 

For these reasons, direct extraction of data from a SIMS or FMS database or a backup copy is unsafe, unsupported by us and infringes ESS’s IP rights. This is why your agreement with ESS stops you from providing other MIS vendors, or any other third party, with copies of SIMS or FMS databases.

 

We wrote to the companies known to be requesting database backups in December 2023 asking them to stop. Despite this, these MIS vendors continue to encourage schools to provide them with SIMS databases.

 

Conclusion

 

Fair competition requires all companies to abide by the law. Using or copying ESS IP without permission is something we cannot accept, particularly when that misuse is unnecessary because there is a safe, workable and appropriate means of data extraction.

 

We are investing heavily in the future of SIMS, FMS and further innovation. As a valued SIMS customer, we wanted you to be aware of the exciting developments in SIMS Next Generation available to you. We will be contacting you shortly to explain how to prepare your school for taking advantage of SIMS Next Gen as part of the SIMS spring software update.

 

As the UK’s largest dedicated education technology supplier, we are acutely aware of the financial pressures faced by academies and schools. To help you reduce your costs, we continue to offer new subscription contracts that deliver great value and price certainty for the next three years. We would encourage you to visit the ESS Contracting Portal or contact [email protected] to find out more about these money saving deals.

 

SIMS has been the MIS of choice for UK schools for over 30 years, offering users a safe, secure, trusted and functionally superior MIS. ESS intends to continue leading the market and to do this in a responsible and appropriate manner as we know that is what customers respect and want.

 

I look forward to working with you in the future and supporting you in adopting and using SIMS Next Generation.

 

Regards,

 

Phil Roberts

Chief Commercial Officer – SIMS and ParentPay Group

[supportman]

It is not necessary, safe or right for any third party to ask schools to provide a copy of their SIMS database during a migration. It is irresponsible of any MIS vendor to ask schools to do this.

 

It is not safe because scripts or programs written by others to extract data directly from a SIMS database can’t guarantee the integrity and accuracy of the data they extract.

Not safe....LOL!

 

Yet as someone who has been through the process, submitted my SQL file and had a new MIS working in less than 36hrs it all worked fine....

 

Sounds to me they are in absolute panic mode about customers leaving them.

[Michael]

It's a very mixed messaged narrative. I'm not entirely sure why ESS think schools care about the amount of investment. Schools want to see how Next Gen compares with the likes of other modern MIS solutions, what advantages there are and what it will cost them in the next 3-5 years.

[synaesthesia]

The only real way ESS can salvage anything from this would be to put their hands up and say "You know what, our migration procedure would appear not to be as solid as it should, so we've developed something to remove the apparently IP protected queries to leave an SQL database ready to be migrated with all fields and other properties intact."

It's not a difficult task, no doubt there's an automation to do exactly that without even needing an expert near it.

 

Failing that, here's a tool which may help them.

[DrCheese]

It's a very mixed messaged narrative. I'm not entirely sure why ESS think schools care about the amount of investment. Schools want to see how Next Gen compares with the likes of other modern MIS solutions, what advantages there are and what it will cost them in the next 3-5 years.

 

Yeah, I don't give a flying fig about the amount of money they've invested, or plan to invest. The product is as it is NOW, not what it will be in the next 1/2/3/4 years. I care about the best product for my school right now & you never buy software on future promises.

 

The only real way ESS can salvage anything from this would be to put their hands up and say "You know what, our migration procedure would appear not to be as solid as it should, so we've developed something to remove the apparently IP protected queries to leave an SQL database ready to be migrated with all fields and other properties intact."

It's not a difficult task, no doubt there's an automation to do exactly that without even needing an expert near it.

 

Yes. Companies that act like utter prats during offboarding do themselves no favours at all. Technicians/schools have long memories & will remember how awful they were treat, meaning they may not even consider returning in future. Also if staff move elsewhere to an organisation that still uses said software they are likely to want to rip it out asap. They will likely talk about you in a bad way to others who ask.

 

There are some companies that I just won't ever deal with again simply because of how awful they were at contract close. Equally there's quite a few I would go back to in a heartbeat if I had a need that met what they were providing & recommend them to others.

[Ditto]

I'm just imagining SIMS, Bromcom and Arbor presenting their products to Dragon's Den and the estimated company values...

[nicholab]

Why are the leader at these companies such muppets SIMS has been paid for with Tax payer money and should have been bought out right by the Government.

[Rob_D]

I don't see how being government owned would make it any better. At least a profit focused org has a good reason to invest in improving the product (in theory anyway).

[dmj]

I don't see how being government owned would make it any better. At least a profit focused org has a good reason to invest in improving the product (in theory anyway).

Like outsourcing IT support to MSP's?

[Andrew_C]

Privatize the profit; nationalize the risk?

[psydii]

I'm not entirely sure why ESS think schools care about the amount of investment.

 

I suspect that message is really aimed at those who have their money in Montagu Private Equity.

Edited February 21, 2024 by psydii
spelling

[bobsmith]

I don't see how being government owned would make it any better. At least a profit focused org has a good reason to invest in improving the product (in theory anyway).

 

investment comes out of the profit - not investing is the way to make more money.

 

If you are looking at this from the angle of investing in a better product attracting more customers = bigger pie = bigger profits - then I don't think you've been looking at the products on offer in the market for the last decade......

 

SIMS has been a cash cow for whoever owns it for a too long. Relying on market dominance to keep flogging the same product with minimal investment for as long as possible.

[PotNoodleTech]

Your wasting your time going down that road, governments are not interested in taking over companies, because they then can't sit on the boards of directors and shareholders etc of those companies and rake in the $$. They'd rather keep them privatised.

[DrCheese]

A nationalised version of SIMS would be even worse - Would be no Bromcom or Arbor to compete with & drag it into the modern ages.

[bobsmith]

A nationalised version of SIMS would be even worse - Would be no Bromcom or Arbor to compete with & drag it into the modern ages.

omg the horror! nobody needed that vision in their heads!

[nicholab]

omg the horror! nobody needed that vision in their heads!

 

The original version of SIMS should have been open source but someone was too greedy.

[dmj]

The original version of SIMS should have been open source but someone was too greedy.

 

SIMS predates opensource by about a decade

[Michael]

Not seen anyone post these interviews from BETT 2024 (apologies if they have) scroll down for each:

 

Arbor

 

Bromcom

 

SIMS

 

All other interviews

[coolhands]

Going to put this one out there.

We are Sims OnPrem

Contract for Sims Connected added inadvertently to our current contract on the 6th Feb, thought nothing of it until we received an email on 12th February saying Onboarding for Sims Connected.

Went back to ESS portal and can see nothing.

Trying to cancel at the moment but not being given much hope quoting 28hrs after ticking or signing whatever it is.

 

My question really is there a legal timeframe for contracts signed online? I was under the impression 14-28 days.

 

Any takers please.

 

Is it worrying that I’ve used sims for 20 years yet I’ve no idea what sims onprem or sims connected is. Sounds like their crappy teacher and parent app which are god awful for trying to ‘onboard’ parents etc

[RootsSchImp]

The original version of SIMS should have been open source but someone was too greedy.

 

Nothing stopping you from building your own MIS and sharing the intellectual property

[PotNoodleTech]

Is it worrying that I’ve used sims for 20 years yet I’ve no idea what sims onprem or sims connected is. Sounds like their crappy teacher and parent app which are god awful for trying to ‘onboard’ parents etc

 

SIMS on prem is what you have now. On premisis i.e SQL server with database and sims clients on the pcs.

 

SIMS Connected is your on prem database moved on to the internet which you then connect to using virtual desktop through a web browser so that it's slower and less reliable than the old on prem system was.

[David44]

SIMS Connected is your on prem database moved on to the internet which you then connect to using virtual desktop through a web browser so that it's slower and less reliable than the old on prem system was.

 

And I believe uses SIMS ID to sign in. The previously mentioned god awful system used to ‘onboard’ parents etc.

[Ditto]

Latest market share movements from the marvellous @bringmoredata blog. https://bringmoredata.blogspot.com/

It's hard to tell from here how much impact ESS's blocking tactics are having, but SIMS is now below 50%. My summary is:

 

 

• Arbor continue to boom
  
• Bromcom win a biggie
  
• SIMS decline slows, but continues
  

Edited May 8, 2024 by Ditto