Why do people use LTSC in schools?

[localzuk]

For those people who use LTSC releases of Windows and Office, why are you using them?

 

MS's guidance for LTSC is that its for more "static" workloads, such as, say, an air traffic controller system. Rather than a general purpose system like a school PC? Especially as things like App Store doesn't work on LTSC without a workaround/bodge.

[atcoates]

We're gradually moving all my sites to the Office 365 Apps so they self-update. For us, it's less work as that's it job done forever.

[DrCheese]

I used the 2016 LTSC in our orginal Windows 10 roll out, as at the time I wanted to avoid the headache of the mass upgrades every few months before the Industry (& we!) had learnt to manage them. I remember the early ones being an utter poop show from posts on here.

 

Moved in 2018 to the proper forward release schedule & now I see no point at all in the LTSC, with the exception of say... things like our Inventry machine (Which is on the LTSC) & digital signage machines.

 

It was a good stop gap for us, but I strongly believe that schools should be fully off any LTSC on normal machines now.

[CHiLL]

I think we used it for the original Windows 10 deployment, but quickly moved to LTSC/B the following year and adopted the H2+6 months update cycle. One of the attractions to it was that it was more like a traditional OS cycle upgrade every 3 years or so, rather than a headache every year. Managing the H2 cycle wasn't too difficult (except when they broke things like the Start Menu XML layouts) and it meant we could introduce security and feature updates more quickly. We are now moving away from Office 2019 and towards M365 Apps for the same reason. Edited May 18, 2023 by CHiLL

[mavhc]

Mostly because MS never gave people the tools to manage Modern Apps properly I suspect

[jthompson]

Back when Windows 10 was less mature, I suppose there was more of an argument for it. With end users so much more familiar nowadays with cloudy SaaS for their goto productivity, I think they're more accustomed to sudden UI and feature changes, so less need to protect everyone from software changes.

 

Personally, having stuck with W7 for so long, the jump up to Win10 was a fair chunk of work so I wasnted to get off that big-change-every-few-years cycle and smooth it all out with incremental changes every 6 months. The number of changes where we've actually had to suddenly configure something following a feature update for W10 has been tiny, though. The only ones I can think of off the top of my head are when search processing got baked into the Start menu (previously we were blocking searching in the Start menu) and that dumb weather & news widget.

[localzuk]

OK, so I get why people looked at it originally. The change from the old way to the Windows 10 multiple releases a year was a big jump.

 

But Windows 10 is now 8 years old, and they adapted and moved to the semi-annual channel system quite a long time ago.

 

So, my question is more why are people are still using LTSC now?

[Primus]

I totally agree, people shouldn't be using it on general purpose PCs but sadly I think we might see people starting to use it because of the October 2025 end of life of 10 SAC.

[Rob_D]

So, my question is more why are people are still using LTSC now?

 

Why fix it if it's not broken? If they initially went LTSC for the reasons discussed, and got everything working the way they wanted, why bother switching and having to re-work a bunch of stuff.

Also there might be people moving to LTSC now for the extra couple of years support life.

[mavhc]

The other reason is they thought they'd have to recreate their thick image every 4 months. Now it's just cost/benefit, might as well wait until Windows 11

[jthompson]

For me, using LTSC for general deployment across a school is one of those 'swimming against the tide' decisions. I've found that aligning myself with the general direction and intent of Google/Microsoft's design makes for an easier time, but we'll all be predisposed to that instinct to a greater or lesser extent.

 

But it's not like there's any particular downside to using LTSC: nobody has ended up snookered or in some wildly different place as the years have passed.

[aac]

We use it and have always done so. We are now on 2021 LTSC and have never had any real need for the App store or come across anything that does not work on it including visual studio which we do not currently use in any case. Reality is it is supported and a whole lot less hassle to manage. I do however have a SAC image I can deploy if we ever need it but as yet we have not used it. No point in us going SAC now for the sake of another year so will re-evaluate when we look at Windows 11...

[Michael]

Several considerations really -

 

- The initial Windows 10 1507 release > 1511 build upgrade (as an example) was absolutely horrendous

- Windows 1607 and 1809 are supported until the year 2026 and 2029

- Teachers typically use browser apps/services and/or legacy software to support Lesson Objectives

- Consistency in software definitely helps both the end user and the IT Professional to quickly resolve problems

- As I've written before, I'm yet to meet a single person who gets excited about Feature upgrades, but more crucially, how does it impact your target audience and their learning?

 

Moving forward, at times I'm not convinced Microsoft OSes are the way forward. More and more services are becoming cloud or service orientated, so the OS is less relevant. A good example of this are modern MIS cloud solutions and not legacy Windows only MIS solutions.

 

Call me old fashioned, but I've never been a fan of running cutting edge software in most instances, unless it's for security reasons or some other reason.

[Jawloms]

OK, so I get why people looked at it originally. The change from the old way to the Windows 10 multiple releases a year was a big jump.

 

But Windows 10 is now 8 years old, and they adapted and moved to the semi-annual channel system quite a long time ago.

 

So, my question is more why are people are still using LTSC now?

 

Why not use it? It's designed for use where things don't change. What changes in a school environment? We don't need the store. The same software gets used for the entire academic year, and honestly usually two or three years. It has a great EOL. It doesn't have the XBox/Candy Crush/all sorts of other junk on it. We still manage Windows Updates with it. I am not saying "Everyone should be using it and you're an idiot if you don't" by any stretch of the imagination, horses for courses and all that, just wondering if there are reasons it shouldn't be used?

[Primus]

Microsoft say you shouldn't use if for general purpose devices.

"The Long-Term Servicing Channel is not intended for deployment on most or all the PCs in an organization. The LTSC edition of Windows 10 provides customers with access to a deployment option for their special-purpose devices and environments."

 

I'm sure we've seen issues with LTSC not supporting the latest CPUs and being unable to be installed on them previously - back when it was LTSB possibly?

 

You're getting zero feature updates/upgrades and falling further and further behind the experience people are used to from their personal devices.

[localzuk]

Why not use it? It's designed for use where things don't change. What changes in a school environment? We don't need the store. The same software gets used for the entire academic year, and honestly usually two or three years.

 

We install new software pretty much all year round, as teachers identify new tools that will aid in their teaching. I've deployed at least 10 new packages this year here.

 

It doesn't have the XBox/Candy Crush/all sorts of other junk on it.

 

Neither does the Edu edition of normal Windows?

 

We still manage Windows Updates with it. I am not saying "Everyone should be using it and you're an idiot if you don't" by any stretch of the imagination, horses for courses and all that, just wondering if there are reasons it shouldn't be used?

Main reason I'd say LTSC is an odd choice is that you're effectively cutting your staff off from newer developments. With so much being cloud based, and the integrated nature of tools like Office, OneDrive etc, I cannot see a reason why it makes sense to effectively cut a chunk of the ecosystem off from being used.

 

We deploy several store apps here, for example.

 

I suppose my main thinking is that LTSC removes a lot of flexibility.

[Jawloms]

Microsoft say you shouldn't use if for general purpose devices.

"The Long-Term Servicing Channel is not intended for deployment on most or all the PCs in an organization. The LTSC edition of Windows 10 provides customers with access to a deployment option for their special-purpose devices and environments."

 

That still doesn't give a "Why". Why have Microsoft said that?

 

I'm sure we've seen issues with LTSC not supporting the latest CPUs and being unable to be installed on them previously - back when it was LTSB possibly?

 

I believe this is all sorted now. We certainly haven't had any issues.

 

You're getting zero feature updates/upgrades and falling further and further behind the experience people are used to from their personal devices.

 

90% of what people do here is Office based or browser based. Windows Features I'd say are largely irrelevant to whhat the kids do during a lesson. Plus most people's personal devices are probably an iPad or similar anyway aren't they?

 

Once again - please don't take this as me arguing against you for the sake of it. I take these discussions as opinions, and take them onboard so I can make informed decisions. If I'm using LTSC but really shouldn't be, I'd make that change.

[Theblacksheep]

 

Main reason I'd say LTSC is an odd choice is that you're effectively cutting your staff off from newer developments. With so much being cloud based, and the integrated nature of tools like Office, OneDrive etc, I cannot see a reason why it makes sense to effectively cut a chunk of the ecosystem off from being used.

 

We deploy several store apps here, for example.

 

I suppose my main thinking is that LTSC removes a lot of flexibility.

 

Not all of us use the MS online ecosystem and have no need for account nagging apps

[Rob_D]

That still doesn't give a "Why". Why have Microsoft said that?

I would assume it's because MS recommend users have access to the new QOL updates as they come, so they have the best "Microsoft" experience possible. LTSC was designed to be used in kiosks, POS systems, etc where the user (if there even is one) never interacts with OS, hence being a more bare-bones experience.

But I could be wrong.

[localzuk]

Not all of us use the MS online ecosystem and have no need for account nagging apps

So that then begs the question - why use Windows at all, if you aren't using the ecosystem? DfE guidance has been to move towards cloud tools for quite some time now.

[Primus]

That still doesn't give a "Why". Why have Microsoft said that?

 

 

 

I believe this is all sorted now. We certainly haven't had any issues.

 

 

 

90% of what people do here is Office based or browser based. Windows Features I'd say are largely irrelevant to whhat the kids do during a lesson. Plus most people's personal devices are probably an iPad or similar anyway aren't they?

 

Once again - please don't take this as me arguing against you for the sake of it. I take these discussions as opinions, and take them onboard so I can make informed decisions. If I'm using LTSC but really shouldn't be, I'd make that change.

 

I generally follow the manufacturer's guidance, they say not to use it so we don't. If we ever needed to get support the first thing they'd say is you shouldn't be using LTSC.

[localzuk]

One example of another tool that LTSC prevents use of is the Adobe Creative Cloud suite. Adobe don't support it on LTSC.

[DrCheese]

Why fix it if it's not broken? If they initially went LTSC for the reasons discussed, and got everything working the way they wanted, why bother switching and having to re-work a bunch of stuff.

Also there might be people moving to LTSC now for the extra couple of years support life.

 

Because you'd be massively losing out on new features that have a significant benefit for end users. Often not easily able to quantify one "Big bang" feature like the days of old, but all the little improvements make life a ton easier.

 

I provide backup support for a school that still runs the LTSC and the differences between our enviroment and theirs is eye opening. They come across issues/problems that could easily be solved by newer software (Thankfully moving to a fully modern system soon!)

[mavhc]

Mostly because you're not getting the latest security features, but also Edge, Photos, Paint 3D, Calculator, Camera, V4 printer driver helper apps, the good screenshot and screen recording tools. And upgrading to a new version is a complete pain

[Koldov]

From my standpoint I'd ask myself 'why use SAC'? and then once those reasons are listed (as in the OPs specific example, the App Store) then it would be a simple task to tick those off and say 'well, we don't use/need that, why have it in the OS?'....

 

So, I would look at what you need it to do as an OS especially in terms of the 'extras' the 'new' versions bring and if you believe that is required/necessary in your environment (which to be fair should work for us and do what we want it to do, not what Microsoft wants us to do with it - as I've said in a similar thread, for all of you saying 'Ooooh, MS says you are naughty', well who here hasn't done something Microsoft (or any other software company) doesn't 'recommend' (like moving to an unsupported Server OS for SIMS)... or Windows being installed on old 'unsupported' hardware (why not just just do an 'Apple' and prevent it, or have to prove you're a Nuclear Powerstation to buy the LTSC licenses)... As with anything in life, 'should not' and 'must not' have very different meanings.

 

I used it (LTSB) for the initial move to Windows 10, mainly due to the horror stories on here (fairly late adopter so there were quite a few posts on here by then) about Candy Crush/XBox etc. As it went so well and made the transition from 7 so easy and stress-free, LTSC was a no-brainer.

 

The thing is I think that it really depends on what viewpoint you are looking at it from.

 

If you are looking at it as a member of a professional I.T support team, fully trained with regular CPD, experienced line managers, good budget, resources, well supported by SLT etc. I fully expect any issues to be absorbed and resolved quickly and efficiently.**

 

If you are looking at it from an overstretched, underfunded, one man band** who is only just keeping it together, causing any extra stress is just unnecessary (as it appeared to be in the beginning and for those of you who maintain that none of the new features implemented since 1507 have never caused any major headaches, many post on here beg to differ).

 

I have a hard time here getting the teachers to install updates/reboot in a timely fashion, let alone deal with them complaining about new versions of Windows being installed (I'm amazed everyone manages to get this done as our teachers are using their laptops all day and at the end of the day they just close the lid and go home)...

 

Maybe the process is different these days and although I hear some of you say that 'teachers' are used to an ever changing UI, in my experience they are not. Given the fact that the last two teachers that have asked for a 'personal' service have required an SSD fitted (due to massive slow down) to accommodate the Windows 11 they have unwittingly let their personal laptop install (which they hate obviously because it's new), they still they won't be getting 11 on their work laptops any time soon.

 

I think it also has a lot to do with confidence and experience, let alone having the time to prepare (you did read all the release notes, right?) and then deal with any fallout. If you can put the time and effort that you spend doing those things into more important issues, why wouldn't you? I'm not against 'change'... well, possibly a little bit, but especially if I cannot see the 'need' for it.

 

Having said all that, I do understand that in some establishments the "could you just install this app it would really help with my T&L" request may be greeted with less resistance/scepticism than in others, so good on the OP, but it's not a given everywhere (the last few apps I installed on the iPads for example are never used so I take all such requests with a big pinch o' salt these days).

 

However, there are security advancements that may not be fully implemented in LTSC versions so that is actually a concern (I also notice that new ISO media for 2019 LTSC has not been released yet on MVLSC to address the boot virus May update). Shame as I didn't have any plans for LTSC 2021 due to shorter support...

 

I would echo what others have said, for a consistent (more or less stress free), deployment & installation (direct from ISO media - no scripts), update, consistent user/management experience, I'm happy with my choice. Also with most T&L tools being web based and storage being cloud based, the basic OS is less of a concern to the end user, so it should be as familiar and simple to manage for everyone as possible.

 

**I'm aware than neither of these setups guarantee or preclude any given level of service/support...

 

Next question... Why are you still on Office 2016...? Well....

 

EDIT: Also, a lot of these arguments against are very generalised, I do get the point about not being officially supported for a lot of software (and I also understand that is an important consideration for some I.T. departments when making an OS choice so I guess that could 'prevent' it's use), but I wonder if anyone has a real world example of being refused support? I'm OK using an 'unsupported' Adobe Creative Cloud and no, we don't currently have any need for Edge, or updated versions of Photos, Paint, Calculator, Camera, V4 printer driver helper apps, screenshot or screen recording tools... but honestly I really don't feel I am letting the teachers 'miss out' on anything...

Edited May 19, 2023 by Koldov