Future of transport

[mavhc]

Is that true of trains powered by overhead lines too?

[PlantHead]

One of the problems for trains in this country is the bridges.

Being able to run double decker trains like the rest of Europe would double capacity overnight but you would have to knock down a lot of listed bridges to make it happen. Personally I'd give up the historical bridges for better trains with more space.

[superatticman]

Is that true of trains powered by overhead lines too?

 

Yes applies to all. Overheard powered, 3rd rail powered, diesel powered.

 

The issue with overhead is that the wires can be brought down by high winds or a moody pantograph (the device that collects the electric from the wires). Saying that though the likes of the Swiss run everything overhead powered through the mountains. That being a place of some pretty harsh weather patterns. Most overhead lines are powered by 25Kv.

 

The issue with 3rd rail is obviously its not ideal having 750V DC at ground level. Plus maximum speeds tend to be limited to around 100mph as a lot of heat is generated with conductor shoes. Not sure you can drive the same amount of current down a third rail either.

[mavhc]

Am I correct in thinking that diesel trains are electric too, just the electricity is generated on board?

 

Overhead seems best. Would multiple pantographs help?

[superatticman]

Am I correct in thinking that diesel trains are electric too, just the electricity is generated on board?

 

Overhead seems best. Would multiple pantographs help?

 

Correct. Virtually every diesel powered train is actually a diesel-electric. The old slam door Diesel Multiple Units that sounded like buses were actually diesel mechanical. They used to change gear on acceleration and were fairly crude and slow. They were built as a stop gap but lasted at least twice as long as intended!

 

Multiple pantographs means more chance of the wires being brought down.

[Andrew_C]

One of the problems for trains in this country is the bridges. ... you would have to knock down a lot of listed bridges to make it happen.

It wasn't that long ago that many bridges WERE replaced around here. All due to the truckers increasing the size of containers. The tunnel under Southampton cost £squillions to upgrade, with much disruption.

[jmak]

The Just In Time approach should be possible logistically and then it's a case of pricing it to make it attractive.

 

We have 2 cars in our household, so potentially 48 hours of use per day. They're actually used for about 2.25 hours per day, ie parked for about 95% of their life.

 

One of them is used for a journey to the local park and ride bus for a journey to the local city and that's the quickest way to get there with a bus pass costing less than petrol plus parking. There are several cars per minute passing our house with one person in them which would get me to the bus stop just as quickly. If sharing one of those was available, I'd seriously consider getting rid of one car. However there's no public transport and a return journey by mini cab 5 days or week costs significantly more than leasing or owning a car.

 

The other journey is 26 miles which takes 35 minutes. Google tells me that the same journey is possible by public transport in 46 minutes. The only snag is that the first 14 minutes of that is by private car to the station. The suggestion for the last leg of the journey is 8 minutes in an Uber, which is approaching JIT transport. Using public transport only would take 2 hours twenty minutes and happens once per day to the destination and zero times per day home, so that's a non starter. A just in time car share to the station would work.

 

The Uber/Lyft system could stand in for autonomous cars now and it should be possible to make it economically more attractive than paying for a car to sit stationary for 95% of its life.

 

There are two approaches to achieving changes like this: autocracy or free market. Want to know why it hasn't happened in the free market? Follow the money. Check out the power and influence of oil companies and car manufacturers and the money they spend on lobbying politicians and green washing their image for consumers.

 

120 years ago, city authorities wanted to get horses off city streets because of the pollution they caused. That change didn't happen because people were told to do something that made their life more difficult. People made the choice because something more convenient (the ICE vehicle came along).

Edited January 27, 2020 by jmak

[unixman_again]

For short journeys, I think the Parry People Mover is the way forward, if powered by a short section of third rail at each stop. The current ones have an engine from a Ford truck, converted to LPG gas. They run every 10 minutes and you can almost set your watch by them, only being delayed by the large number of students in the morning and after school rush.

[Davit2005]

I cannot understand the view point to double the cost of public transport in peak times, my journey into work was £2.80 the journey home was £6.90. Its like I had a choice to travel in a packed train for 2.5 hours with barely standing space or room to breathe

[mavhc]

The idea is to encourage you to travel earlier or later, why do you have to travel at peak times?

[LTurner3692]

Funny enough peak times are when everyone wants/needs to go to work and finish work.

 

The only way around that would be for ALL companies to let people work different hours throughout the day!

[caffrey]

Or change the way we work e.g. more people working from home - do all jobs really need a central place of work ?

[mikeprice]

Flexible working is a massive plus for public transport because it distributes the demand over a larger time span

 

problem is - again - when you are not just looking at people like office workers. If you work in a factory then your shift probably ends at the same time as a lot of other people

 

hence a lot of transport is suddenly needed ina small area NOW

 

 

also - going back to bridges - one alternative to raining the bridges to allow for double decker trains is simply to dig down and drop the rails

but it turns out (obviously if you think aboutit) that this is even more complicated and expensive than just knocking the bridge down and building a new one

 

and either solution means closing the whole line for an extended time - in facts digging down closes the line for even longer

[LeMarchand]

You could whitelist people with a disability from being rated poorly due to their disability. You'd have to look for patterns in the data to find the racists/sexists/washists etc. Question is what to do when you find them? Maybe offer free travel to anyone willing to sit next to a racist/sexist/washist/etc and help them. De-odourer system in the entrance?

 

Ever seen the Black Mirror episode "Nosedive"?

 

CLIP GETS VERY SWEARY.

 

 

This is shortly followed by a scene where the older electric car that is all she can rent won't work with the chargers at the airport...

[Andrew_C]

I cannot understand the view point to double the cost of public transport in peak times,

I think the train companies would argue that they halve the cost 'off-peak' to encourage those that don't have to travel at peak times to use the under-utilised stock.

 

Train ticket prices do need sorting though. By picking specific trains, and booking ahead, I paid £16 for a return to London. The train up was practically empty, but I'd have paid £40 if I'd just walked up to the station...

[mavhc]

Again, encouraging forward planning so they can arrange for the correct number of seats to be available.

 

The problem with the Black Mirror version is it's 1 rating for your whole life. Given enough people using the system you could filter all the loud people into one vehicle, and the quiet people into another. All the people who don't care about odours into one, the people who do into another.

 

Don't worry about the factory workers though, robots never go home

[superatticman]

Flexible working is a massive plus for public transport because it distributes the demand over a larger time span

 

problem is - again - when you are not just looking at people like office workers. If you work in a factory then your shift probably ends at the same time as a lot of other people

 

hence a lot of transport is suddenly needed ina small area NOW

 

 

also - going back to bridges - one alternative to raining the bridges to allow for double decker trains is simply to dig down and drop the rails

but it turns out (obviously if you think aboutit) that this is even more complicated and expensive than just knocking the bridge down and building a new one

 

and either solution means closing the whole line for an extended time - in facts digging down closes the line for even longer

 

Exactly. This is why we need brand new lines to be built. Widening or increasing height on existing routes is a logistical nightmare. They do drop the rails to install overhead electrification though so it can be done. I do believe that width is also an issue too. There are a lot of railway expansion projects on the go though. I did list them on another thread but can't remember where. Most of them are lines that were closed in the Beeching era.

[sted]

Or change the way we work e.g. more people working from home - do all jobs really need a central place of work ?

but then if youre not careful youd end up isolating a lot of people. It might work technically but if i worked from home id probably almost never see anyone. Over xmas say ignoring the twice i saw my parents the longest conversations i probably had were with the servers in greggs. for 2 weeks thats ok but long term i think id lose the plot

Again, encouraging forward planning so they can arrange for the correct number of seats to be available.

The problem with the Black Mirror version is it's 1 rating for your whole life. Given enough people using the system you could filter all the loud people into one vehicle, and the quiet people into another. All the people who don't care about odours into one, the people who do into another.

Don't worry about the factory workers though, robots never go home

and in this data driven world how does that data get used when is it going to get hacked thats just a system open to so much misuse. Not to mention who is any 1 person to decide whats acceptable? say my hearings not great so i pump the volume up on my headphones do i get a crummy rating just so i can hear a podcast?

Exactly. This is why we need brand new lines to be built. Widening or increasing height on existing routes is a logistical nightmare. They do drop the rails to install overhead electrification though so it can be done. I do believe that width is also an issue too. There are a lot of railway expansion projects on the go though. I did list them on another thread but can't remember where. Most of them are lines that were closed in the Beeching era.

theres a difference between raising rails a 30-60cm for electrification and 2-3 m for a double decker train.

 

as to single carriage trains we have them here (they are finally being phased out) but anyone whos ever used the pacers would probably rather wait for the next train they are awful

 

Public transport in general isnt up to the task at the moment really (leeds council is trying to take control of it from 1st bus here because its not great then you get northern rail and transpenine who cant keep up any reliability to the point northern may have the franchise removed from them). If i want to get to leeds from home (its about 4-5 miles) the quickest way is driving (obviously but parking is horrendously expensive), bus from the closest busstop takes ~45 mins, bus from a more main road busstop 20-30 and a 10-15 min walk to get there, drive to park and ride and get bus from there (but not on match days) 25 mins ish (10-15 drive 10 bus), bike about 45 mins but getting back sucks as its uphill so it takes longer as i end up pushing the bike as its a long steep hill, train possible but id have to walk/drive the wrong way 1st

 

and thats just to the city centre for work as i do usually 2 sites a day it just wouldnt work (and i was all over yesterday). short of using an uber/taxi there is no way i could do my job without a car and calling an uber to ferry me round would be more polluting than me just driving.

 

Leeds keeps doing studies for (and iirc buying land for) trams etc then at the last minute the government always say no. It i believe the largest city in Europe without a tram/mass transit system

[Davit2005]

The idea is to encourage you to travel earlier or later, why do you have to travel at peak times?

 

In the morning I had the choice to get there early which I took (and I would of done anyway even if I wasn't spending an hour in the gym) but when you finish work you want to get home, I'm sure that is the same as everybody else, not sure I would want to wait at work an extra 2 hours to get a cheaper travel. Unfortunately my job role depended on me being there between 9am and 4-5pm, it is as simple as that.

 

People need to understand that there are different needs/requirements by different people for various reasons, one rule does not work with all, but I'm sure there are a lot of pointless short journeys that practically do not need the use of a car that being an EV or whatever.

 

I would not own a car if I did not need one for work but then I am lucky to be in that scenario a lot of people are not for one reason or another.

Edited January 28, 2020 by Davit2005

[LTurner3692]

In the morning I had the choice to get there early which I took (and I would of done anyway even if I wasn't spending an hour in the gym) but when you finish work you want to get home, I'm sure that is the same as everybody else, not sure I would want to wait at work an extra 2 hours to get a cheaper travel.

 

Unfortunately my job role depended on me being there between 9am and 4-5pm, it is as simple as that.

 

In a previous job, the only trains I could get meant I arrived at work 45 mins before I was due to start and always ended up having to wait an hour after work to get the train unless I managed to get out the office 15 mins early!

 

In the end, I started leaving early because I was always in early.

 

It was the main reason I left that job.

[Davit2005]

In a previous job, the only trains I could get meant I arrived at work 45 mins before I was due to start and always ended up having to wait an hour after work to get the train unless I managed to get out the office 15 mins early!

 

In the end, I started leaving early because I was always in early.

 

It was the main reason I left that job.

 

Much the same at a previous employment for me, leave home at 5:30am get to work 7:15am. Leave work 5pm and very (, very) lucky to get home by 7pm. Did that for 3 years till I got a car due to the anxiety caused partly by the transport situation.

 

My train routes were on what was then known as Southern Rail or South West Trains

Edited January 28, 2020 by Davit2005

[mavhc]

> but then if youre not careful youd end up isolating a lot of people. It might work technically but if i worked from home id probably almost never see anyone.

 

Generally just want to give people flexibility, work from home some days, others come in early and leave early, others come in late and leave late. Plus if you're not driving you can be working if you wish these days. In general just need people to spread out a bit so there's less rush hours

 

> and in this data driven world how does that data get used when is it going to get hacked thats just a system open to so much misuse.

 

People already know where you're going anyway, license plate cameras, online maps, face recognition. The way to stop it getting hacked is to write it properly.

 

Multiple identities should be allowed, each one would need to gain reputation, but for some that's worth it.

 

> Not to mention who is any 1 person to decide whats acceptable? say my hearings not great so i pump the volume up on my headphones do i get a crummy rating just so i can hear a podcast?

 

Not any 1 person, the aggregate. All the hard of hearing people can travel together. Do you have closed or open headphones?

 

> Leeds keeps doing studies for (and iirc buying land for) trams etc then at the last minute the government always say no. It i believe the largest city in Europe without a tram/mass transit system

 

Indeed, needs leadership to have the correct priorities, which in turn needs everyone who votes to have the correct priorities.

[sted]

> Not to mention who is any 1 person to decide whats acceptable? say my hearings not great so i pump the volume up on my headphones do i get a crummy rating just so i can hear a podcast?

Indeed, needs leadership to have the correct priorities, which in turn needs everyone who votes to have the correct priorities.

my hearing ok it was just an example but that said they are in ear headphones but worn loosely so i can still hear whats going on so im sure they leak sound

 

people needing to vote responsibly ah ha ha ha. without making this political im not sure i have any faith in any of the main parties to do anything atm

 

public transport is part of the solution esp for long journeys there is n way id rather drive to or in london than get a train there but they keep closing leeds station at the weekend and even when it is open unless you book way in advance its soo expensive and i generally decide fairly late if im going somewhere often based on weather so its hard to plan in advance (i dont want to stand all day at donnington watching touring cars in the rain its a miserable experience)

Edited January 28, 2020 by sted

[superatticman]

 

as to single carriage trains we have them here (they are finally being phased out) but anyone whos ever used the pacers would probably rather wait for the next train they are awful

 

 

Yes Pacers are indeed awful. Okay for very short journeys on rural branch lines but the problem is they end up making it on to busy commuter services. I'm actually more concerned with the poor quality ironing board seat stock that's going to form the backbone of our longer distance services. Not being able to sit in relative comfort is a massive turn off for me. The ironic thing is that buses and coaches are actually more comfortable than they used to be.

[mikeprice]

one of the things about recent train types is the lack of suitabel bike storage

 

In the cycling press there are lots of stories about cycle storage which only takes 3 bikes - and even then only if it is a specific size - so you average mountain bike sticks out into the corridor - and blocks any other bikes being there

On top of that they are not suitable for ebikes - and it takes some strength to heave a bike up onto the hooks, so female cyclists had a problem

Oh - and many train companies insist that you HAVE to use them - and hence only 3 cyclists can be on the train - and if you book it and someone else has filled it with suitcases then tough - you get kicked off the train

 

hardly a forward thinking integrated transport concept