Future of transport

[mavhc]

A place for the rest of the transport discussion.

 

http://www.edugeek.net/forums/behind-red-door/210800-electric-vehicle-discussion-thread-31.html#post1820035 etc

 

1. Self driving means there's no reason to own transport yourself, taxis will be cheaper than owning a car

2. We should increase the cost of everything to pay to clean up the pollution it causes

3. JIT shared transport will mean there's very little inconvenience to taking shared transport

[smurfomatic]

As discussed on the previous thread, the major difficulty is getting people to give up their cars. Hard enough to get people who can afford them to choose electric over ICE.

 

Will need government legislation to make this happen, which will be full of exempions for various classes of vehicle and will probably not come into force while I'm still commuting every day...

[superatticman]

I think the main issue with public transport is the fact that its 'public'. If we're going to force people out of their cars then we need to ensure public transportation is not only fit for purpose when it comes to punctuality, frequency and comfort. We also need to ensure that standards of etiquette are enforced. Of course criminal activity already has measures in place to deal with it. However its issues such as standards of behaviour, personal hygiene and the increasing use of mobile devices without headphones that needs to be addressed. This is the main reason I don't like using buses if I'm being honest. If they had a first class section on buses which excluded under 21's and chavs then I'd be a bit more interested.

 

However for Intercity transportation then the train is the obvious way forward. Some of the new long distance trains are appalling though. Awful, rock hard seats and actually far less comfortable than an Underground train from the 1960s. Up to recently I used to happily get the train from London to Inverness. Now, I'll fly every time. 8 hours sitting in an LNER 'Azuma'...no thanks. They've even screwed up the new Caledonian Sleeper. What was once a slightly rattly but comfy old bed on steel wheels is now a tacky, unreliable poor riding overpriced shambles.

 

You need to be doing better than that to tempt people out of their cars.

Edited January 24, 2020 by superatticman

[mavhc]

I'd make a distinction between public, and shared.

 

Pay, eg, £10 to travel alone, £5 rating to travel with people who got a 4-5* rating (£4 if you're 5* rated), or £2 to travel with random people

 

Once the cost of pollution is added to the things you buy electric cars are cheaper, and shared transport is cheaper still. And trains are cheaper than flying.

[mikeprice]

One of the problems with public transport is the places it takes you to

another is the fact that you are limited to taking what you can carry

 

If I drive in my car I go to pretty much exactly where I want to - especially if e.g.I want to go to a remote hotel in Cornwall or Scotnad

and I can chuck however much stuff in the boot that I want - bikes, fishing rods, bags, buckets, spades, uncle,tom,cobbley and all

 

this is pretty much impossible using a train

especially as over the last few years the train companies have made it more and more difficult to take a bike on a train - especially an ebike

 

if you are travelling direct to the centre of a major city with a maximum of 1 suitcase then trains are fine

 

These are the sort of problems that need to be dealt with - none are impossible to tackle but they will give people 'reasons' to stick with private cars.

My wife if not happy about the idea of an electric car - because it will make our once yearly (or less) trip to Cornwall a bit inconvenient

things like this need to be tackled BEFORE you try to convince people to change - and well before measure are put in place to 'punish' people who won't change

 

 

Glad it's not my job to sort it all out!!!

[jmak]

And trains are cheaper than flying.

 

Not as often as they should be. I'm planning a trip by train to Italy this year. Flying would be much cheaper.

 

Same for a trip to Paris for a colleague.

 

I used to regularly travel to Glasgow for work and it was almost always more expensive to take the train.

 

I choose to take the train as I'm happy to make the compromise of traveling less often.

[mikeprice]

Trains should be cheaper than cars as well

 

every time we have gone on holiday I have compared the cost of trains to the airport (for 2 people) with the cost of driving

 

the train was massively more expensive than driving plus parking

 

and - I know - I should include the cost of car ownership - but I own the car anyway - it is 10 years old and depreciation is pretty much zero

 

and at the moment it is not feasible to get rid of the car and live without one - wife can;t walk the 20 minutes to the nearest bus stop that goes anywhere

 

 

 

so - basically - the only solution starts with regarding public transport as a service - not a business

 

 

 

Oh - and just to illustrate the current climate - our local bus company, which is run by the counsel, has gone bust and SOME of the services have been taken over by Arriva - i.e. the profitable ones

the rest seem to have been stopped

along with the drivers jobs

[mavhc]

Trains will only be cheaper than flying if we tax the pollution.

 

Self driving cars will make taxis cheaper than owning cars

 

Driving to Cornwall will be more difficult when it's underwater

[Andrew_C]

Not as often as they should be. I'm planning a trip by train to Italy this year. Flying would be much cheaper.

 

Same for a trip to Paris for a colleague.

 

I used to regularly travel to Glasgow for work and it was almost always more expensive to take the train.

 

I choose to take the train as I'm happy to make the compromise of traveling less often.

This. Flying to Italy, would rather go by train, but not at 3x the price. Hassle levels are about equal. Train possibly slightly easier due to ridiculous o'clock flight.

[superatticman]

We also need to build a hell of a lot of new lines if the railway is going to absorb those motorists that are going to be forced off the roads. Funnily enough when we do try to build a new line people object to it.

[unixman_again]

This. Flying to Italy, would rather go by train, but not at 3x the price. Hassle levels are about equal. Train possibly slightly easier due to ridiculous o'clock flight.

I knew somebody who used to fly from London to Birmingham for work, as it was cheaper than going on the train. Madness.

[mavhc]

We also need to build a hell of a lot of new lines if the railway is going to absorb those motorists that are going to be forced off the roads. Funnily enough when we do try to build a new line people object to it.

 

Yeah, people are idiots, we can tell this because they've done nothing to stop the thing that's going to kill everyone that we've been warned about for 40 years

 

The trick with trains would be smaller trains, more often, that stop less.

 

1. Have on/off tracks, so the platforms don't slow down the trains that aren't stopping

2. Have 1 carriage trains, so they can happen every 5 mins instead of every 30

3. Have 1 carriage trains so you can get the one where everyone is getting off at the same place

 

Eg I want to visit my friend in a village 200 miles away. The night before I put in the journey into Trnsprt, the new transport app that exists when all other names have been taken. It sends a SDC to pick me up, and 3 other people who are also going to the station. The SDC drops me off right next to the platform, get out, walk 20m to the train, that's JIT scheduled to be the best compromise between 100 people's requests to travel.

 

That train goes almost directly to the town nearest the village, stops at one other place because there weren't 100 people going to the same town. A SDC picks me up and takes me the 10 miles to the village.

[Lonix]

A place for the rest of the transport discussion. http://www.edugeek.net/forums/behind-red-door/210800-electric-vehicle-discussion-thread-31.html#post1820035 etc 1. Self driving means there's no reason to own transport yourself, taxis will be cheaper than owning a car

I'll believe it when I see it. Especially after midnight on a night/family out or worse, during the peak nights of new years eve. If it was very cheap I would consider getting rid of my car.

 

2. We should increase the cost of everything to pay to clean up the pollution it causes

Great idea to anger people, considering how high bills are at the moment and with brexit looming. Then it doesn't help when the biggest polluters in the world are being ignored. I agree we should do our part but at the cost of creating additional poverty? People that can afford it, should pay more. The people that can't (like me), need help to make our homes eco friendly and switch to e-cars. Otherwise, you'll just force me to lose my house and not my car because of my current location and costs of public transport (and yes I've checked several times)... I can't afford to lose it.

 

 

Again, we shall see.

 

Do you work for the national railway?

 

For years they've been telling us things will get better. yet, every time I use a train (about 30+ times a year) - it's full, no seats and half the time delayed. It even costs me a fortune. And because of where I live, it can take 45 minutes to walk or a 30 min bus journey due to one way systems and traffic + more cost. Things used to be even worse at my previous home, nearest bus stop was a mile walk and half an hour bus journey to the station.

 

If they increase costs to my car, I'll just end up sacrificing other things before I lose it. Higher risk of putting me in to debt, my mental health will probably jump out the window and I certainly won't consider any more kids in my life, holidays will be gone, nights out won't exist. I'll still have my car though because at this present state of public transport.. or even where it could be in 5 years time.. it isn't good enough or cheap enough.

Edited January 27, 2020 by Lonix

[mavhc]

Yeah, only flaw with my plans is it requires someone competent in charge, oh well, we're all going to die.

[Bompalompalomp]

I'd make a distinction between public, and shared.

 

Pay, eg, £10 to travel alone, £5 rating to travel with people who got a 4-5* rating (£4 if you're 5* rated), or £2 to travel with random people

 

Once the cost of pollution is added to the things you buy electric cars are cheaper, and shared transport is cheaper still. And trains are cheaper than flying.

 

Just to throw a wrench in the hypothetical works... Picture how discriminative a rating system for a "nicer" version of public transport is. What's stopping the mentally handicapped person unable to control their words who needs to travel being branded with a 1* because they were loud in public and unable to get that form of transport. Imagine people of an ethnicity being rated low by others for illegitimate reasons.

 

Myself, I refuse to use buses if I can avoid it since I got my motorcycle. After using buses for several years I have been sexually harassed, assaulted, personally had to stop fights between other passengers, witnessed several crimes and had my anxiety worsened. Trams and trains are better, but not without this issue.

[Andrew_C]

It isn't just that; the capitalist system is set up for short-termism. You could do it somewhere like China, but you'd have to sacrifice personal choice for a state controlled society.

[superatticman]

we're all going to die.

 

That's guaranteed mate.

[superatticman]

Yeah, people are idiots, we can tell this because they've done nothing to stop the thing that's going to kill everyone that we've been warned about for 40 years

 

The trick with trains would be smaller trains, more often, that stop less.

 

1. Have on/off tracks, so the platforms don't slow down the trains that aren't stopping

2. Have 1 carriage trains, so they can happen every 5 mins instead of every 30

3. Have 1 carriage trains so you can get the one where everyone is getting off at the same place

 

Eg I want to visit my friend in a village 200 miles away. The night before I put in the journey into Trnsprt, the new transport app that exists when all other names have been taken. It sends a SDC to pick me up, and 3 other people who are also going to the station. The SDC drops me off right next to the platform, get out, walk 20m to the train, that's JIT scheduled to be the best compromise between 100 people's requests to travel.

 

That train goes almost directly to the town nearest the village, stops at one other place because there weren't 100 people going to the same town. A SDC picks me up and takes me the 10 miles to the village.

 

1) Agree with this. Quite a few stations already have 'through lines' that bypass the platforms. Not enough though. The problem is complications in pathing when a train is running late.

2) These types of vehicle usually go under the names of a 'bus'. The whole idea of a train is to couple together a number of vehicles to shift people from A to B in a more economical manner. In the days of steam you did used to have 'slip' coaches that would detach (at speed!) to drop passengers off at various platforms whilst the rest of the train would steam on. It worked in general although H and S must have been having palpitations even back then.

3) Again, this is a bus! Must say I've never liked the shortening of trains to single vehicles except on the barely viable rural branch lines. Couple the damn things up, run longer trains and build more lines.

 

By the way anyone know why we don't use double decker trains in the UK??? The restrictive British loading gauge. This more than anything is the root of a lot of our congestion issues.

[LTurner3692]

Let's face it, In this day and age, people don't want to sit on buses with wannabe gangsters, with people who have poor hygiene. being crammed into a seat that only fits 2 kids, not 2 adults.

 

Plus why would I want to pay £5-£10 to go to the city in these conditions, when I can drive and it costs me the same?

 

I use to take public transport a lot, given the choice i would rather not go out than take it.

[Andrew_C]

The restrictive British loading gauge

Yeah, maybe being first to the party isn't always such a good idea.

 

And what happened in France when some numpty didn't consider their gauge? Trains that hit the platforms...

[mavhc]

Because you're getting free pollution by driving, the idea is to stop that.

 

Railed bus vs train. We're assuming all these trains are electric, so is there a need for an engine? Isn't it easier to make every carriage powered?

 

Second issue is making the trains not hit each other, these would be centrally managed self driving trains, DLR manages it.

 

Paris has double decker underground trains, so cool.

 

You could whitelist people with a disability from being rated poorly due to their disability. You'd have to look for patterns in the data to find the racists/sexists/washists etc. Question is what to do when you find them? Maybe offer free travel to anyone willing to sit next to a racist/sexist/washist/etc and help them. De-odourer system in the entrance?

[dcwhitworth]

 

Eg I want to visit my friend in a village 200 miles away. The night before I put in the journey into Trnsprt . .

 

Whoops, there you go, requires people to plan in advance, therefore won't be used. If you ask people why they have a car when it costs them so much relative to public transport the answer is always along the lines of "I like the flexibility / freedom". What they mean is they don't have to think ahead. In the modern world everyone has got used to having things *now*.

 

Also the reality is that car costs are effectively hidden because they are charged in a different way to public transport. If people paid the real price to use their car per journey then it might have some effect e.g. if you got the car, fuel, servicing, insurance etc for free, but then paid a charge related to them every time you drove then it would make many more people move away from cars I bet.

[mikeprice]

One of the problems that is often missed out the people working shifts in factories etc (including hospitals etc)

 

I have known many people who have no choice but to drive to work as there is no public transport at the time they need to get to work and/or go home

For example, when I used to work for a large retail company the computer operators worked until midnight - or possibly later. The buses and train stopped before this - and anyway the site was some distance from the main bus routes and train station - and most of the operators were not willing to walk through the town in the dark at that time

 

hence cars were necessary

 

So if you start ramping up taxes on non-electric fuel then these people suffer

 

and- guess what - most of the people affacted by this are on fairly low wages so are hammered far far more by the tax that people on higher wages/salary

 

and, of course, they are far less able to just sell their (probably low value) car for a nice new electric car as they have little spare money to just invest in the future

 

this is why central investments and incentives need to be put in place (at high cost) before you try to penalise people for not complying

 

and,of course, then people will complain about the government trying to over control their lives

 

which makes the whole concept pretty much impossible in the USA - and not that easy here either!

 

 

 

 

a start for this (as I have mentioned before) is for public transport to be regarded as a service - like road lights and roads themselves - rather than as a financial entity

 

as a nice timed example - all the buses here have just stopped (except the main routes that makes money) as the local council run bus 'company' haas gone bust

hence my niece's bus to college no longer runs - she has to get her Dad to take her in his car (OK he is a taxi driver so he can do it) - but this has meant that loads of kids getting a bus - now all go by car

If the buses were a service (and councils were properly funded) then this would be unacceptable

(apologies for coming over all Corbyn !)

[mavhc]

Doesn't require people to plan in advance, just makes it cheaper for you if you do.

 

1. Cars should cost more.

2. When shared transport is better due to JIT scheduling and JIT routing more people will use it

3. When more people use it it gets cheaper.

 

Maybe cars need smart meters: You are currently paying 50p/mile for this trip. Cost of car is let's say 10p/mile for petrol. Creates 404g of CO2, that's another 10p/mile to remove the co2. Let's add on 10p/mile for other pollutants.

 

Average car goes 8000 miles/year and has £500 insurance, so 6p/mile insurance. Let's say a £6000 car lasts for 6 years, so £1000/year to own the car, that's 12.5p/mile.

 

EV car takes that down to 20p/mile. Well, except for my car which seems to keep increasing in value, 2 years later and the same car sells for more.

[superatticman]

 

Railed bus vs train. We're assuming all these trains are electric, so is there a need for an engine? Isn't it easier to make every carriage powered?

 

 

Virtually all new trains that run on our network are 'multiple units' that have traction motors in each carriage. This is whether the train is 2 or 12 carriages. The advantages are greater adhesion putting power to the rails and the fact a unit can usually carry on even with a duff traction unit. Relatively easy to couple up units to form a longer train too. Disadvantages are more to go wrong and it would appear that track wear is actually worse with multiple units, especially those that are diesel powered with extra weight. Traditional 'loco hauled' sets are slowly but surely being replaced by units worldwide. However, there is now an argument that its actually more economical to shift a large amount of people with a single high powered unit and unpowered carriages.