[sims] How late is SIMS 8?

[mthomas08]

Does your current MIS work? Ours consistently crashes with memory issues when editing attendance and student data.

 

This issue has been going on for 3+ years, I've got 100s of emails and dozens of calls logged regarding it. We've upgraded our server OS/SQL in that time (fresh install) and still the same issues.

 

Capita get back to me every few weeks with a new idea that never pans out.

 

There is no guarantee that changing to SIMs will just 'work' for you and I'd hold fire for SIMs 8. SIMs is very expensive and not exactly a smooth run.

[daturum]

If a primary school currently wants to 'upgrade' to SIMS 8 then Capita will ask how the school currently uses SIMS 7 so they can advise if they'd be a suitable candidate to switch. I think that tells you all you need to know about it's 'out of the box' readiness for primary schools. SIMS 8 for secondary schools is even further down the line.

 

I know of one Free School which started off using SIMS 8 and has converted to using SIMS 7 within a term.

 

It was being talked about being "not far off" when I worked for them in 2010. There have been enough pinches of salt taken with everything they say to grit the entire road network this winter...

 

I was told by someone who used to work for Capita that they had created a new version of SIMS using Silverlight which they then had to scrap when Microsoft stopped supporting it.

[sonofsanta]

So is anyone else in the country considering a move to SIMS, or are we the only ones? (Again, not my preference...)

[CyBeRkId2002]

There is no, and I mean NO, possibly way to justify Capita / SIMs stagnation in terms of what they offer. My arguments would be:

 

• The most important factor for me... They are the only company who have been receving reliable, steady income from 15000 (!!!!) schools to help fund research and development. This does not even include revenue from other SIMs related streams (API access, write-back etc.). They have been complacent, not re-invested and relied on the fact that schools simply won't change. It seems schools under MATs & Academys are quite rightly questioning what they are paying for and whether it is best fit.
  
• The argument that people who developed the original software are no longer around and new developers don't know how it works is inherently flawed. People do not want a like for like remake of SIMs in the cloud, which, from what I saw in the past, is what they appeared to be striving for. Cloud gives so many more opportunities beyond having an interface that is accessible in a browser.
  
• The need for this hasn't, or shouldn't, have come as a shock to them.
  

 

Ultimately I agree that it is increasingly unlikely with budget cuts, outsourcing dev, absolutely no development news that SIMS8 will ever see the light of day beyond a few test cases. Schools, if they haven't done so already, should be looking at whats out there.

[sonofsanta]

• The argument that people who developed the original software are no longer around and new developers don't know how it works is inherently flawed. People do not want a like for like remake of SIMs in the cloud, which, from what I saw in the past, is what they appeared to be striving for. Cloud gives so many more opportunities beyond having an interface that is accessible in a browser.
  

 

I alluded to this in my feedback to the Head after the meeting. I challenged the sales bods about why should we move to SIMS 7 now only to have to retrain on SIMS 8 in a couple of years? "Oh you won't need new training!" Right, so that's an admission that you've not improved your product at all, then.

[mavhc]

Doesn't have to be a like for like interface, but needs to have all the same features.

 

Internally the 1000s of special cases that have been created over time in the form of bug fixes need to be transferred over

[supportman]

I'm not wrong am I, thinking that a good programmer could create a brand new MIS in a couple of years on their own if they worked full time? So, 9 years with a team? What are they playing at?!

Your not wrong, I actually have the skills to do this as a part time web developer I could mock something up in a few months. Start a crowdfunder and I will do it haha

 

The biggest thing to get working is the reporting and the timetabling (or at least importing from another system like iSams does).

 

A simple MIS database with registration, photos, behaviour, classrooms, medical, CSV imports would be pretty simple and take a few weeks. Its pretty basic stuff.

 

Personally I would design it with an open stable JSON API, cloud based with a MariaDB backend, PHP laravel framework. But thats just what i'm personally used to. There are other awesome modern frameworks out there these days that can build stuff like this very quickly.

[CyBeRkId2002]

@mavhc

 

I find that a strange way to look at it. Taking into account all use cases, evaluating each module and ensuring it meets all the current criteria required by school... absolutely! But re-coding/engineering for all bugs they may have introduced in the past?

 

Also, I would question the 'has to have the same features' part in it's entirety. A move to a new version, on a new platform should be an oppurtunity to start afresh. Schools, software and expertise have changed so much since SIMS7 (or even STAR in some cases) that trying to recreate everything wouldn't be my approach to it.

 

Put another way MIS' who allow you to migrate pretty much ALL data have managed this without any kind of access or knowledge from Capita SIMs devs.

[Linfit]

"Oh you won't need new training!"

 

Wrong - I have seen the mockups of the new Exams Organiser and the workflows and underlying processes are completely different. It has to be - if they simply replicate the interface and existing methodology in a web interface the product will fail as its still basically SIMS with all its inherent ease of use problems.

 

Of course if they don't do that and start afresh they are putting themselves on a level with all the other MIS providers out there in that a school buying their product will be starting from scratch.

 

With their current reputation, that has got to worry them - its their "Dreadnaught"* moment.

Edited December 5, 2019 by Linfit

[DODICT]

Doesn't have to be a like for like interface, but needs to have all the same features.

 

Internally the 1000s of special cases that have been created over time in the form of bug fixes need to be transferred over

 

Love that - SIMS 8 is late as they have spent years introducing all there bug fixes into the new software ?! If that was needed or indeed being done that might excuse the years worth of development but bug fixes are just that - fixes for something that didnt work as intended. There is only one spec for how each current process works and if they are happy with that, they develop that in the new solution, there is no need to worry about the incremental revisions that, over time, got them to that point ?!

 

As has been said above with the regular income they have and the exposure they have to the market's needs the delay in inexcusable.

 

Whats amazing is people are considering waiting for this mythical release to arrive ! Why would you ? - their current offering is expensive, unreliable, difficult to maintain, is years behind in its development and hasn't moved forward significantly for a decade. Why would you want to wait for that same company to deliver up another MIS for you to try ? I swear they must deliver subliminal messages through their patches - that's why they deliver them so regularly to avoid customers coming to their senses. . .

Edited December 5, 2019 by DODICT

[Banjo]

I've been told that SIMS8 is fully up and running in around 20 schools nationwide with no other MIS being used in parallel. Logging onto our SIMS8 test account you can see the development and changes over time. There is still work to be done, and yes it is very late, but that was to be expected if not condoned.

[Ditto]

Your not wrong, I actually have the skills to do this as a part time web developer I could mock something up in a few months. Start a crowdfunder and I will do it haha

The biggest thing to get working is the reporting and the timetabling (or at least importing from another system like iSams does).

A simple MIS database with registration, photos, behaviour, classrooms, medical, CSV imports would be pretty simple and take a few weeks. Its pretty basic stuff.

Personally I would design it with an open stable JSON API, cloud based with a MariaDB backend, PHP laravel framework. But thats just what i'm personally used to. There are other awesome modern frameworks out there these days that can build stuff like this very quickly.

Coding and supporting the ever changing three annual census runs might be a little more challenging than class registers. Flexible, user-controlled assessment system implementations would also be a fun task, of course linking in to all the reporting requirements from that. For a fully fledged new system, I think you could put a skilled team of 5 or 6 together and make inroads in a couple of years, but it is too easy to underestimate the task. It would need a very convincing business plan to tempt a an investor. Even if you were to get a decent product developed, those that hold the purse strings have shown such a long-held desire not to change, it would be a serious worry to break the current market dominance. To be honest, I believe there are enough providers in the market today, beyond Capita, that schools should investigate those and make their decisions. The long held dominance is finally starting to wane and after tomorrow, I believe we will have more evidence of this, especially in the MAT arena.

[mavhc]

@mavhc

 

I find that a strange way to look at it. Taking into account all use cases, evaluating each module and ensuring it meets all the current criteria required by school... absolutely! But re-coding/engineering for all bugs they may have introduced in the past?

 

Also, I would question the 'has to have the same features' part in it's entirety. A move to a new version, on a new platform should be an oppurtunity to start afresh. Schools, software and expertise have changed so much since SIMS7 (or even STAR in some cases) that trying to recreate everything wouldn't be my approach to it.

 

Put another way MIS' who allow you to migrate pretty much ALL data have managed this without any kind of access or knowledge from Capita SIMs devs.

 

A bug is usually an assumption you made that's incorrect. eg "Oh wait, people can have a hyphen in their name", or "a pupil can live at 2 addresses". So you have to document every possibility, and then program it again in the new system, and test all those possibilities.

 

Obviously now you know all those edge cases you can start with a system that allows multiple addresses per user, instead of having to bodge that in, but you still have to a) document it, b) code it, and c) write tests. Not unique to rewrites though.

 

If you want everyone to move you have to add every feature, because otherwise people won't move, or they'll take the opportunity to switch to someone else. Everyone uses the core 20%, and then each school uses another 10%, but a different 10%

[MartinT]

Before the SIMS bashing becomes too loud, just stop and think about what it does, not how old it is or whether the UI was designed by committee.

 

Ours is astoundingly stable and reliable. We use it heavily every day, almost all of the modules from Admissions to Lesson Monitor, Exams, Timetabling, Behaviour, InTouch, Fees etc. It's being hammered by the staff all the time and we very rarely, if ever, have to restart the server. We also have a pile of connectors sending info out to MyConcern, RoomBooking, SOCS, GCSEPod, Schoolcomms etc.

 

I don't know of many other school MIS systems that do all this, they usually miss out one or other major piece of functionality. Every time we do a review we come to the rapid realisation that SIMS may be ugly but it gets the job done. Yes, I want Next Gen just as soon as everyone else, but I'd rather they do it right.

[CAM]

Doesn't have to be a like for like interface, but needs to have all the same features.

 

Internally the 1000s of special cases that have been created over time in the form of bug fixes need to be transferred over

 

Bug fixes which they say will be added to future testing then break and admit they will not fix them. In which case I look forwards to my interface jumping up and down like a jackhammer in shiny new SIMS 8.

[kennysarmy]

So is anyone else in the country considering a move to SIMS, or are we the only ones? (Again, not my preference...)

 

We've started the process.

Already seen Bromcom.

iSams next week.

 

For those that have moved away from SIMS.net - when did you do this? Did you all wait until your contract expired, which I presume would be March?

 

Or did you ascertain the 'best' time for your school to migrate and just accept that you'd be paying for SIMS and not using it for a period of time?

 

Has anyone got out of the contract earlier than giving a 3 month notice period?

 

Is it possible to pay for SIMS.net monthly to give you greater flexibility to move?

[msi_school]

We spoke to several MIS suppliers and they all discussed a buy out of the SIMS contract

[deshills]

So is anyone else in the country considering a move to SIMS, or are we the only ones? (Again, not my preference...)

 

This blog by Joshua Perry is worth a read (as are all of his) - Bring more data: MIS MARKET MOVES 2019: the challengers are slowly but steadily catching up - you can see all the stats here.

[deshills]

Before the SIMS bashing becomes too loud, just stop and think about what it does, not how old it is or whether the UI was designed by committee.

 

Ours is astoundingly stable and reliable. We use it heavily every day, almost all of the modules from Admissions to Lesson Monitor, Exams, Timetabling, Behaviour, InTouch, Fees etc. It's being hammered by the staff all the time and we very rarely, if ever, have to restart the server. We also have a pile of connectors sending info out to MyConcern, RoomBooking, SOCS, GCSEPod, Schoolcomms etc.

 

I don't know of many other school MIS systems that do all this, they usually miss out one or other major piece of functionality. Every time we do a review we come to the rapid realisation that SIMS may be ugly but it gets the job done. Yes, I want Next Gen just as soon as everyone else, but I'd rather they do it right.

I think you make a really good point here, it was renowned for "doing the job" when i first started this job 10 years ago. I find it interesting more people don't comment on the fact that it only works because it relies on so many other 3rd party solution to make it viable!

 

There are some really good next gen MIS out there that do the job now without the need for the extra faff/risk/cost of the 3rd parties!

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

Before the SIMS bashing becomes too loud, just stop and think about what it does, not how old it is or whether the UI was designed by committee.

 

Ours is astoundingly stable and reliable. We use it heavily every day, almost all of the modules from Admissions to Lesson Monitor, Exams, Timetabling, Behaviour, InTouch, Fees etc. It's being hammered by the staff all the time and we very rarely, if ever, have to restart the server. We also have a pile of connectors sending info out to MyConcern, RoomBooking, SOCS, GCSEPod, Schoolcomms etc.

 

I don't know of many other school MIS systems that do all this, they usually miss out one or other major piece of functionality. Every time we do a review we come to the rapid realisation that SIMS may be ugly but it gets the job done. Yes, I want Next Gen just as soon as everyone else, but I'd rather they do it right.

I think you make a really good point here, it was renowned for "doing the job" when i first started this job 10 years ago. I find it interesting more people don't comment on the fact that it only works because it relies on so many other 3rd party solution to make it viable!

 

There are some really good next gen MIS out there that do the job now without the need for the extra faff/risk/cost of the 3rd parties!

[MartinT]

Interesting. Care to name one or two MIS that have impressed you?

[deshills]

Interesting. Care to name one or two MIS that have impressed you?

Absolutely. Guess it depends firstly on what phase of education you are looking at.

I had a really good look around Arbor recently which looked really good, and i have heard really good things about that system, particularly from Primary colleagues. Scholarpack also has a very good reputation in Primary sector.

We (Harris Federation) use Bromcom across all 48 schools across all phases and i have been (as you might have seen on here and elsewhere) a big advocate of theirs for a while. Its a really good, modern solution for Primary and Secondaries, but is evolving (feel free to read this - https://lnkd.in/dwyJPC6), so gets better as the demand changes in the market. Also because of integrated bits we and other MATS have pushed for, its not heavily reliant on 3rd parties (something i really dislike, i think money should be spent on T&L not on tech) but i know others disagree on that and thats a good debate to have.

Would be very happy to invite you in for a demo of the good (and admittedly some bad!) bits.

 

If you wanted to chat to someone about the others too (as i don't have direct user experience of them) i can put you in touch with some people?

[sonofsanta]

Well I just came out of three hours with Bromcom, and honestly, if we go with SIMS then I riot. I suspect the other staff who were in with me might join me, by the impressed sounds they were making throughout.

 

Having been a big proponent of "an integrated system with all the data can do things better", knowing that was Bromcom's selling point, even I got caught out at one point when I asked about giving the exams officer extra rights on the room booking system.

"Why would she need it?"

"Well to book IT rooms for people with requirements--"

"But the exams scheduler will already have booked it out for her."

~lightbulb moment~

[sonofsanta]

This blog by Joshua Perry is worth a read (as are all of his) - Bring more data: MIS MARKET MOVES 2019: the challengers are slowly but steadily catching up - you can see all the stats here.

 

 

That's a really interesting read--thanks. Had no idea Advanced had tanked so hard, but goodness.

[Ditto]

That's a really interesting read--thanks. Had no idea Advanced had tanked so hard, but goodness.

 

It is indeed an interesting read. I had link to this earlier this morning in http://www.edugeek.net/forums/mis-systems/208839-sims-market-share-shrinks-again-7.html if anyone wants to discuss further. I'll post there my thoughts on Advanced there.

[sefton]

So is Q1 2021 the latest anybody has heard from Capita about their Secondary Sims 8?