NUT Strike 24th April

[localzuk]

Just thought I'd clarify something:-

 

I do think teachers, like all public sector staff, should be getting a better yearly pay increase, linked to the RPI (4.5% or more at the moment).

 

What I don't agree with is the attitude that teachers are hard done by, or have a poor starting pay when compared to other jobs. This attitude may have been correct 10 years ago, but not any more.

[torledo]

Some of these posts put me in mind of bisley69. Can't dig up the original posts tho'.

 

aha! Here it is

 

hey, what gives ?

 

That lot over at TES can use the word 'arsewipe' whereas here swearing of any kind isn't tolerated. Even in FFS. FFS.!!!

 

[contink]

@contink - how about people BORN in this country with no skills to speak of sponging a free ride ? they still massively outweigh the number of migrants receiving benefit. They used to call the nhs cradle to the grave care. I think that should be changed to DWP cradle to grave care.

 

Actually that was the exact point I was trying to make... I wasn't on the "migrants = bad, wasters, etc" kick. Obviously wasn't clear enough.

[witch]

@localzuk

 

Firing teachers is not hard. Stopping them winning at tribunals because someone cocked up the paperwork is. If a school does the PM right and has dealt with the situation properly you find that the teacher does not have a leg to stand on within 6 months or has moved on. 6months may seem a long time but this is looking at poor performance, not breach of contract. It can take a football club years to get rid of rubbish players. Other industries have their own methods ... some are damn fast, other aren't. Teachers are longer than most but if someone makes a major cock-up then yes .. they are easy to get rid of. It is also worth noting that *we* are just as difficult to get rid of. We have all heard stories from existing (and former) members who have had to work with or under some right numpties who don't know their RJ45 from their zx81.

 

Teachers and the wrong tools ... why are they allowed to buy those tools? Why don't they go through you? Failings of Senior Leadership or yourself to put the proper processes in place should not be thrown back at teachers. (ok .. a bit heavy there but just to show that just because it does not work for you the way it should it does not mean that others should be labelled that way.)

 

Teachers get stressed because of workload; lack of support from further up the chain; having to deal with the kids, their parents and the general public; the mad drive to meet Govt targets and changing Govt agendas (which can often conflict with one another depending on whether you work closely with the LA or people like SSAT!)

 

.

 

You may be right about schools being able to get rid of teachers, but IMHO they just don't - and these and the other points above are due to SMT not being able to cope with the workload and extra responsibility - and also the amount of management training is minuscule so they really have been promoted to their highest level of incompetence. Obviously this does not apply to all teachers but I do think that there is a lack of cohesive direction in the management of the schools in which I work.(first and middle). The two schools of which I am governor (middle (different one, same pyramid) and upper) seem to have a slightly better handle on it but even then I feel that there is a fatally flawed mix of business and public service in both places.

Teaching is not an easy job, and not one that I could ever do, and there are many problems with the way things are going - ridiculous changes of direction by government, high levels of paperwork, lack of support etc - but I am not sure that more pay is really going to address these issues in any meaningful way. Especially given that the pay is not *that* bad in comparison to private sector jobs (see earlier comment).

I have asked around and most of the teachers I know would far rather something was done about the problems as mentioned above, than the salary. All they want to do is get on and teach - and this is what they feel they are being stopped from doing at present. They feel that a call for more pay is masking the real issue which is that little Jonny isn't being taught because the teacher is filling in a stupid form!

[duncane]

I don't think it's a question of do they deserve the rise, so much as a question of do they deserve it at the expense of other, probably more deserving, people?

 

There's a limited pot of money, and I don't think they have the greatest need.

 

I decided to work in a school because I wanted to help, I often work extra hours without pay, and I've even 'forgotten' to claim when I've been offered pay for a specific out of hours job. Apart from one occasion, I've never even taken time in lieu.

 

I exercise restraint - I want other people to exercise restraint too - why should the people with the loudest voices always get everything?

 

I know that pay rises (above productivity increases) are, in themselves, inflationary. I know that if we all get pay increases, the increase in the costs of goods will offset this, but if the teachers get an increase, and I don't, then they won't be any better off, but I'll be worse off.

 

To cap it all, as a low paid worker, I've just had my income tax rate doubled from 10p in the pound to 20p in the pound. I've just joined Unison in the last month, so I may have a word with my rep to see if they know anything about tax credits, because it looks like a hand-out is the only way to offset this. (Why the government sees the need to take the money from me, pay for someone to look at it, then hand me it back I don't know.)

[Friez]

I was a graduate, I started on 12k, moved up to 15k. Don't see my prospects for getting anywhere close to TEACHER starting pay happening any time soon, let alone above that mark. Fair pay? Where's the fair pay for us underpaid fools who slave round the clock to make the lives of Teachers even more easy?

[TechMonkey]

I think it is one of those areas that there are very good teachers that do put the extra effort, for who the 13 weeks holiday are well deserved and could do with a lot more money. But that would be like saying every footballer shoudl be on ManU player fees.

 

As others have said, during the summer here we have about 5 teachers in a lot during holidays (& 3 of those admit it is because they are sad, unorganised and like it when it is empty) until probably the week before coming back when it will ramp up to maybe 10-15 and then the day before maybe half the staff.

 

Someone mentioned that all we do is make our lives easier so we don't ahve to leave the office. well that in turn makes the Teachers and students lives easier as we can diagnose adn fix things quicker. Also maybe some teachers shoudl follow the same idea. Many don't make it easy on themselves & as such the extra stress & problems. Take the teacher who phoned up today to say she needed a youTube video for her lesson today she found last night. When I said sorry youTube is filtered, even we can't get at it, she got in a flap about her lesson. Now we haven't just filtered the site, it has always been, yet she decided the night before to base her lesson on something she didn't know she could or couldn't get. If she had come a week ago, or even beginning of the week I would have downloaded it at home and sent it in & her life would suddenly have become infinitely easier. We make our lives easier to make users lives easier and so we can do more, I don't think that should be held against us or used as an insult.

 

As for there not being the same level of stress or accountability in our jobs. You obviously haven't had someone manage to take out SIMS in the middle of the day, with every lesson registers in place, everyone trying to findout what is wrong, the office braying for blood as they can't get any information and the head wondering if you could possibly fix it soon as.

 

But as in any sector some make a job look immensley tricky and complicated. Some teachers have got it down on pat, have the resources at their finger tips, have good time management and get along all right. Others bumble along from one panic to another, complaining that photocopier is broken again when they need it right now, or this isn't in place, or that isn't where they expected it to be. This also shows up a problem with the teacher training. I have had some friends becoming mentors int he school and it is damend near impossible to fail a student who is rubbish. The Uni tutors conspire and manipulate to force the student through leaving a teacher that is so called qualified ready to be dumped on a school.

 

I think yearly raises should be fair, I think good teachers should be rewarded. But I think bad teachers and teachers that are happy to coast along waiting for the pension should get a rude awakening.

[markwatkins]

 

Cards on the table - I think we can truly all agree that actually, Teachers ARE underpaid. The issue is that it isn't teachers that are specifically underpaid, ALL PUBLIC SECTOR workers are underpaid.

 

Perhaps if there was more joined-up thinking, we might get somewhere. Instead of all the splinter groups whining separately, how about the group that is underpaid stop infighting and whining and join forces. A group is greater than the sum of it's parts, after all.

 

If Teachers, us, Police, Firefighters, Nurses, etc. all started fighting for fair pay for public sector workers, we might actually get somewhere. Could you imagine if we all striked on the same day? The Gov would be forced to do something about it..

 

Very true, the public sector has historically been paid less then the private sector. The reason usually given is job security pension etc.

 

However these benefits do not allow you to get a mortgage this is because in this country successive governments have used house prices to support the economy, most other European countries do not have the tradition of home ownership and their economies are not dependent on the population getting massively in debt.

 

In order to change the way we and all public sector workers are paid is for a totally different approach by politicians.... and we all know how risk averse they are! Because they only think in 5 year cycles in order to cling onto power.

 

Sorry if this appears to be a rant against our politicians it isn't it is my observations.

[broc]

slightly biased ?

 

You talk about an 8 to 6 working day as if we're talking about a junior doctor working in the nhs in the early 80's working 16 hour shifts.

 

 

My niece, a recently qualified junior doctor IS still working 16-18 hour shifts in her hospital..... on a starting salary of around £26k after studying for 5 years.....

[broc]

At the school where my wife works (as a science technician) one of her teacher colleagues was complaining recently about having spent a 'whole weekend' writing the case for his 'threshold' payment. Not a bad two days work for several thousand pounds annual increase!

[torledo]

@TechMonkey

 

I think you've hit the nail on the head about teachers who demand to know why this isn't working or that isn't working. The argument i constantly hear is about baying teenagers, as if they're ready to trash the room because the projector image has shifted 2 feet to the right. If that were to happen that's more of a refelction on the abilities of the teacher than the abilities of the IT team. How about we teach teachers about classroom management, and how to deal with obstacles that a job throws up from time to time. That ALL jobs throw up.

 

Either teachers have unrealisticially high expectations or they truly expect hat any technical hitch is as a result of technical mismanagement or can be forseen. These people should learn that !$%! happens and we live in an imperfect world.....where people don't always get what they want i.e payrises.

Edited April 3, 2008 by ZeroHour
swearing!

[petectid]

A lot of these posts now seem to hold some resentment that teachers have much better pay prospects than school IT support staff. That isn't completely true as a few of you are getting paid as much as most of your teaching colleagues. Okay so job evaluation will probably reduce your pay if your Head decides to hide behind the smoke screen that it’s your LEA who specifies your income level.

 

There seems to be quite a bit of bitterness about the issue of your pay compared with teachers. Let me remind you that when you accepted the post after interview you were well aware of the pay being offered for the job. One thing I must ask is. If you feel your pay is so poor and the private sector pay much better then why are you working in the public sector? It’s your choice if you want more money get another job. I suspect some of you will now bleat that you really enjoy the work you do in school, if that’s the case then you must be willing to do it for your present pay.

 

Then again if its so easy being a teacher in comparison to an IT support worker why do you not retrain and become an ICT teacher then you will earn the money they do. And from my experience schools are in great need of good ICT teachers as there are few about.

[TechMonkey]

No I think there is bitterness that the teachers don't see what they are getting and are demanding more. I know I get paid less than a teacher, if I was so aggrieved as to get bitter about it I would either become a teacher or move jobs (which is more likely!).

 

The problem stems from one group demanding more, when they are not as bad off as they think they are. As many ahve said, surely Nurses, Police and Doctors should have as much right to, if not more, to ask for more pay.

 

This is another of the problems I face when discussing this issue. The comeback eventually comes round to, why don't you do it then if you feel so hard done by. I don't, in my day to day work I love it and am happy. Yes more money would be nice to be able to afford a flat or house but I am content. But if people want to start screaming how hard done by they are they shoudl expect to have flaws in their arguments pointed out through comparisions with others who coudl very easily claim they are worse off.

 

I don't become a teacher because I know my limits. I find teaching kids very easy, I enjoy it when I get a chance but I am rubbish at admin work, rubbish at planning & useless with paperwork. THis I feel would put me and the kids at a disadvantage so untill I feel I have sorted those areas I wouldn't consider it. I do get bitter when those that can't see their short comings carry on regardless and ignore the consequences, blaming them on the job. As I said, if half of those that complained of the stress were to organise and plan better I think they would find it would ease.

 

Also the argument could be reversed. If the teachers don't like the pay why botehr moaning, get out and go into industry.

[torledo]

A lot of these posts now seem to hold some resentment that teachers have much better pay prospects than school IT support staff. That isn't completely true as a few of you are getting paid as much as most of your teaching colleagues. Okay so job evaluation will probably reduce your pay if your Head decides to hide behind the smoke screen that it’s your LEA who specifies your income level.

 

There seems to be quite a bit of bitterness about the issue of your pay compared with teachers. Let me remind you that when you accepted the post after interview you were well aware of the pay being offered for the job. One thing I must ask is. If you feel your pay is so poor and the private sector pay much better then why are you working in the public sector? It’s your choice if you want more money get another job. I suspect some of you will now bleat that you really enjoy the work you do in school, if that’s the case then you must be willing to do it for your present pay.

 

Then again if its so easy being a teacher in comparison to an IT support worker why do you not retrain and become an ICT teacher then you will earn the money they do. And from my experience schools are in great need of good ICT teachers as there are few about.

 

you're argument about 'if public sector pay is so poor why not move to the private sector' should be presented to the teachers aswell. It works both ways.

 

when that is presented to the teachers and they're apologists they'll say 'oh but we need to, we must retain people in pubic sector teaching'....

 

Whereas you seem to be saying to public sector IT workers if you don't like the pay sod off to the private sector, as if teachers must be retained through improved pay and conditions whereas IT technicians don't need to be retained in the public sector - schools don't need to pay IT technicians to retain them. It's this attitude that creates this division between teachers and support workers, unless you're one of the people in this thread who are married to teachers. All 4 of you who've voted that 20k is not enough

 

And this attitude is why schools can get away with paying peanuts for IT technicians. Because they value one group higher than another. I'm happy not to have a go at teachers if we're acknowledged as IT profesisonals. And part of that is fairness of pay. Fairs days pay for a fair days work

Edited April 3, 2008 by torledo

[contink]

schools don't need to pay IT technicians to retain them. It's this attitude that creates this division between teachers and support workers, unless you're one of the people in this thread who are married to teachers. All 4 of you who've voted that 20k is not enough

Actually I think £20k is enough, and I don't agree with the NUT action on its current merits (much as I'd love the fiancée to get more money! ) My problem has always been with the generalisations being thrown around.

 

Overall though it seems like peoples attitudes are more p*ssed that support staff get less respect, money or recognition. That seems to spilling over into an anti-teacher response which seems disproportionate to the extent that decent teachers are being lumped in with a minority of wasters.

[MK-2]

if its so easy being a teacher in comparison to an IT support worker why do you not retrain and become an ICT teacher

 

i would assume almost everyone working as IT support in whatever level in a school applied because they like/love working in IT. If they liked/loved teaching they would have trained as a teacher.

[TechMonkey]

Actually I think £20k is enough, and I don't agree with the NUT action on its current merits (much as I'd love the fiancée to get more money! ) My problem has always been with the generalisations being thrown around.

 

Overall though it seems like peoples attitudes are more p*ssed that support staff get less respect, money or recognition. That seems to spilling over into an anti-teacher response which seems disproportionate to the extent that decent teachers are being lumped in with a minority of wasters.

 

That is always the problem with these types of debates, generalisations come into play but not intentionally. I don't think anyone would claim here that all teachers are wastrals, that none of them deserve good pay and that they are all slackers. But the ones people have problems with are normally the ones that shout loudest to get more pay and better conditions.

 

But 20k is not a bad start for a graduate. It could be better but so could any pay award. As others have said, most teachers seem to forget about the 'whole package'. Would be good to include what kind of pension and hours the other graduates they quote are getting. Knowing what some new graduates in certain sectors have to go through without any prospect of regular holidays I bet they would welcome becoming teachers. It has almost become norm that the new graduates have to completely slog it to near burn out to prove themselves. So as ever, it could be worse.

 

Just to even it, I think there are a fair few support staff that are overly paid, waste of spaces that shoudl get a good kicking as well.

[GrumbleDook]

I do think the starting salary is enough ... but I do think that *all* public sector worker should be on a better rate and the only people with enough weight behind them are Teachers at the moment ... if they get it then other areas will follow. That is one reason why they will be fought tooth and nail by the Govt.

 

I also hate the generalisations ... just as I hate the generalisations abotu senior manglement ... and I hate the generalisations about support staff. We can spend days and wekks picking apart each other's arguement about how hard we think teachers work and we all have sufficient evidence about our own viewpoints ... I obviously think I am right (you would not expect anything else from me) but I do accept that other have valid views based on good evidence.

[OverWorked]

What I don't agree with is the attitude that teachers are hard done by, or have a poor starting pay when compared to other jobs. This attitude may have been correct 10 years ago, but not any more.

 

I went through teacher training 12 years ago and then the starting salary then was just 12k. Plus, teacher training was the most miserable time of my life.

 

There was no way I was going to be a teacher, so I went back to my old job for a while then trained to become the tech I am now.

 

I was surprised to read here that teaching now starts at 20k. I no longer feel sorry for them. I think that's ample reward for what is, from my experience, a hard job.

 

Teaching does demand a lot of personal time, evenings and possibly a couple of weeks in the hols, but 20k starting salary more than makes up for it.

[el8linuxel8]

I'm in the same boat, but on even less money. My plan is to stick it out for a few years before moving on armed with experience and the hard-baked cynicism (sp?) of the true IT tech.

 

Iv decided to do it the other way around, Experiance then university. Hopefully that will get me a better graduate job, id never work in education again though.

[enjay]

As others have said, most teachers seem to forget about the 'whole package'.

 

Yes and no - the "whole package" is good, but lots of corporate jobs offer a good package on top of the financial remuneration too - good pension schemes, private healthcare, company car or car allowance, travel allowances/loans, discount gym membership, pub lunches on company money etc. Also, mortgage lenders don't give two hoots about the size of the pension or the number of days holiday when considering an application - they look purely at the amount of cold hard cash coming in, and make their decision to lend (or not) based on that.

[petectid]

you're argument about 'if public sector pay is so poor why not move to the private sector' should be presented to the teachers aswell. It works both ways.

 

Yes your right Torledo that argument does work both ways, and teachers are leaving the profession for the private sector whether that is in industry or private education there are retention issues especially with NQTs, but more so now with more experienced staff. In order to remove this drain of experienced teachers we have to remunerate them making it more attractive to stay in the profession.

[contink]

In order to remove this drain of experienced teachers we have to remunerate them making it more attractive to stay in the profession.

Actually, if you asked most teachers what they would prefer:

- more money

or

- less administration and a return to educating instead of test, test, test

 

.. you'd get a lot (not all) saying the latter. Money is not the only motivator and the job doesn't get some gifted individuals because it is not the same anymore. TechMonkey said it best in that it's more about paperwork, form filling and dotting the i's than actually getting the children to learn.

[webman]

There seems to be quite a bit of bitterness about the issue of your pay compared with teachers. Let me remind you that when you accepted the post after interview you were well aware of the pay being offered for the job. One thing I must ask is. blah blah blah if you don't like your job, move....

 

So did the teachers. It doesn't stop them moaning about everything under the sun though does it?

[torledo]

Yes and no - the "whole package" is good, but lots of corporate jobs offer a good package on top of the financial remuneration too - good pension schemes, private healthcare, company car or car allowance, travel allowances/loans, discount gym membership, pub lunches on company money etc. Also, mortgage lenders don't give two hoots about the size of the pension or the number of days holiday when considering an application - they look purely at the amount of cold hard cash coming in, and make their decision to lend (or not) based on that.

 

I don't think corporate pensions scheme can match full salary pensions and retirement ages for teachers.

 

Company car for those not on mega salaries will typically be awarded based on miles covered or as a necessity of the job i.e mobile service engineer. So company car is a double edged sword, for many it means doing a lot of motorway mileage plus they're taxed on it aswell.

 

When i was in industry our line manager only got the company card for special occasions....most pub lunches were out of our own pocket. How about free school lunches for teachers ? School dinners aren't as good as they used to be, but they fill a hole.

 

You're right about mortgage lending, it is about money coming in not the package perks.

Edited April 3, 2008 by torledo