NUT Strike 24th April

[Diello]

Just been having a debate with our Lead ICT Teacher - we came to the conclusion that the problem is everyone fighting for their own little corner.

 

Teachers feeling hard done by, wanting more pay.

Nurses feeling hard done by, wanting more pay.

Police feeling hard done by, wanting more pay.

Firefighters feeling hard done by, wanting more pay.

EduGeekers/LG workers feeling hard done by, wanting more pay.

 

As one sector fights for a huge pay rise, all the other sectors start shouting that it's inappropriate, and arguments come out about length of holidays, how much work is truly done, etc.

 

Cards on the table - I think we can truly all agree that actually, Teachers ARE underpaid. The issue is that it isn't teachers that are specifically underpaid, ALL PUBLIC SECTOR workers are underpaid.

 

Perhaps if there was more joined-up thinking, we might get somewhere. Instead of all the splinter groups whining separately, how about the group that is underpaid stop infighting and whining and join forces. A group is greater than the sum of it's parts, after all.

 

If Teachers, us, Police, Firefighters, Nurses, etc. all started fighting for fair pay for public sector workers, we might actually get somewhere. Could you imagine if we all striked on the same day? The Gov would be forced to do something about it.

 

Our problem isn't that Teachers don't deserve more pay - Our problem is why should only teachers, out of all public sector workers who are underpaid and necessary to public services, be paid what they're worth, when the rest of us aren't.

 

Maybe we're arguing the wrong fight.

Edited April 2, 2008 by Diello

[petectid]

@petectid:

I don't think it is as easy as you make out and i feel quite annoyed by your remarks.

I have a degree and other professional qualifications far more than some of the teachers at this school but i find i am paid a great deal less per annum for far more work.

If it was that easy for graduates then why are there not more of them entering the IT market I'll tell you why because it would be too much like hard work for them and not enough pay.

 

Why isn't it easy, we spend most of our time implementing stuff to make our job easy so much so that some never really have to leave their room. Its not hard work and you probably know that. Just think of all the jobs out there that are much harder than your own, usually physically harder but still harder than running your network.

[GrumbleDook]

I'll approach this from a teacher's perspective.

 

Yes, a newly graduated teacher goes to a school and works as an NQT. The first year in a school can be one of the worst and best experiences of your life short of Basic Training. The extremes you have to go to with planning and preparation, with marking, with developing your classroom skills (whether you are talking about classroom management, delivery of lessons, etc) and this is before you are introduced to Parents' Evening ...

 

For an NQT, or someone in their first full year of teaching you will have the long teachers' holidays ... but on average (independant TDA survey from 2 years ago) they only stop working for 3 1/2 weeks a year ... and that is not moving hours around due to working late on marking etc.

 

Once you get more experienced and have a bank of resources that you can use the job gets easier ... until the Govt move the goal posts. Rewrites of the curriculum every 3-4 years, moving exam boards, changes in management of schools ... these all mean that you have to change between 30 and 60% of your resources. Some might need a bit of adapting, some might need a complete rewrite.

 

Eventually you become a good teacher ... you hit a ceiling and you get promoted by taking on 'Leadership' roles ... those lovely TLRs that replaced manglement points. You start teaching less and doing more strategy, admin, paperwork, meetings ... the good teachers become less present in the classroom and the cheapest way of replacing them is with NQTs or GTPs. So, you get a constant stream of heavily worked teachers coming into schools that the unions can then use as ammo for getting better conditions across the board.

 

The problem with all this? I have no problem with good teachers saying that want better pay and conditions. I have no problem with certain subjects saying that they have horrendous amounts of marking. The problem is that the quality and dedication for teachers varies too much. Too many see it as a job rather than a vocation. It is something they have fallen into rather than choosing to do. The good ones get lots of pressure put on them to do all the work and risk being burnt out. They then leave the profession and you get the next stream of NQTs.

 

If the teachers getting better pay starts *all* areas of the public sector getting better pay then I have no issue with this. The Teachers are one of the last unions with the wieght behind them to get this ... police can't, nurses can't, firefighters can't ... they may be our last hope.

[contink]

Maybe we're arguing the wrong fight.

 

In one... *deep breath*.. Why is the money raised in taxes going towards:

- people sitting on their backsides making a career out of doing nothing, producing nothing and learning nothing

- those same people teaching their offspring that this do nothing career is a keeper and let's all have sprogs at 15 and keep the dream alive.

- people coming into the country with no skills, etc.. (see above) and expecting a free ride (and this is not a blanket, all migrants are spongers rant so don't go there!)

- civil servants, politicians, teachers, etc... who don't do their job properly and who can't be fired because of the plethora of self serving idiots who think that allowing one of their union members to be fired (even when they are blindingly obviously incompetent, lazy or lying about illness!) is bad for everyone (yeah right!)

- politicians who can throw money out the window like it's theirs for expenses without any oversight and yet fight for things like larger class sizes

 

My sister works in the benefits agency and regularly leaves me open mouthed at the sheer level of fraud, incompetence and idiocy endemic in the benefits system. If we could prosecute just 10% of those scum sucking vermin and and actually find punishments to fit the crime instead of this "put them in a nice little prison where their human rights won't be trampled" oh and then let them out before they go in because of overcrowding b*llox then perhaps the other 90% might learn.

 

Finally if you really want to turn things around require those self serving power mongering idiots in government to actually have relevant professional experience of the trenches for whatever department they work in. If they are minister for Education they should have taught, been a school governor or relevant professional/doctorate level qualifications in the field of education, not some position handed to them by some numpty in PriceWaterHouse Cooper thanks to a degree in accountancy. Maybe then we'd actually get ideas that worked and not the "70 in a class is fine!" insanity we've heard lately.

 

 

.. and breath... Sorry but this "teachers are all lazy b*stards" talk is unfair and just more of the stereotypical tosh that Sun readers just love. Teachers are like people (go figure!), some work hard, some take the proverbial pee and others just should never have been employed to teach in the first place.. The ones we remember the most are the ones that leave us wanting to use them as foundation material in a new house because we seem to love noticing and "rewarding" the negatives, instead of recognising and praising the positives.

 

Gah... ok feel better now... perhaps I should wipe the froth from around my mouth before I return to my other half

 

 

 

Hmm... did I go off topic a liddle.. ? Ah sod it... Sue me...

[witch]

I do think that many teachers work hard and do lots of extra hours - in fact a friend of mine worked out that in term time she did about 55 hours a week, dropping in the holidays, to give her a year average of about 35. So, that is about the same as those who work in industry, isnt it?

EXCEPT that IMHO teachers pay, which is a little lower than other grads perhaps, is compensated for by:

Good pension

no redundancy worries (well almost always)

no worries about profitability of company

no performance related pay

Standard salary across the country so they always know what they will get.

Good training opportunities

 

I know a lot of teachers who are married to teachers and who honestly believe that those 'out there' in industry work a standard week and NEVER take work home!! They really think like that and feel hard done by.

 

As I said, I think many teachers do work hard, and the job is stressful (you can't get up and go for a quick walk to clear your head in the middle of teaching a lesson) BUT all in all they don't do too badly. I would support their pay claim more if they worked out a better way to get rid of bad teachers, as there seem to be quite a lot around.

A good teacher can be an inspiration and change a child's life and outlook, but a bad one can do untold damage

[webman]

My £0.02.

 

Teachers already get paid adequately for what they do (considering the starting salary of £20k and them being able to quickly and easily progress) and support staff do not.

 

So teachers have to adapt to new procedures, teaching methods, curriculum etc. So what? Technology evolves and moves at an even quicker pace and we learn and adapt to these quite easily.

 

So they "only" get 13 weeks holiday a year. Most of us get 25 days.

 

They get PPA/NCT; essentially paid coffee breaks. We do not.

 

And what are these "better conditions" that they keep asking for - what's wrong with their current conditions? 8:30 - 3:30, an hour for lunch, no responsibilities for "admin" tasks... They don't know when they're on to a good thing.

[jcollings]

My £0.02.

 

 

They get PPA/NCT; essentially paid coffee breaks. We do not.

 

And what are these "better conditions" that they keep asking for - what's wrong with their current conditions? 8:30 - 3:30, an hour for lunch, no responsibilities for "admin" tasks... They don't know when they're on to a good thing.

 

PPA/NCT; paid coffee breaks - you have to be joking - I could hand on heart say I would find very few of our staff having a coffee break during this time. Most genuinely use this time to do school work. E.g A Head of Year is on PPA/NCT, incident happens - they are dealing with that. A 50 minute period soon disappears up the arse of misbehaviour as one colleague said.

 

An hour for lunch - again I know virtually no staff here who have that - most are running clubs, on duty or chasing their arse on some other errand.

 

I think as others have said we need to be fair here. It is a tough job. Those that complain should perhaps consider changing careers and becoming teachers if it's such a doddle. I know I wouldn't swap!

[webman]

Oh come on, the "if you don't like it, change" is pathetic. There are many reasons why wouldn't choose teaching or another career. I'm just saying our job is just as complex and difficult as a teacher's; and we are as responsible, if not more, than teachers - so therefore we should get paid accordingly.

 

If teachers get the pay award that they want, is the Govt really going to say support staff can have what they want, too? I don't think so.

[GrumbleDook]

The 13 weeks holiday is a myth.

 

Take in to account the teachers that are in over holidays doing revision or coursework sessions, not because they haven't done a good enough job during the lessons, but because Govt targets drive schools to hit targets that are often unreachable without changing the whole background of a community (see contink's post).

 

Yes ... once you work out the average time spent doing other things you get to a figure that WITCH gave ... and yes, one of the reasons people in public sector jobs is down to the perks which balance out the wages being slightly below 'industry'. Performance related pay ... it does exist. Competency procedures for crap teachers / HoDs ... it is there. There was a major change in performance reviews last year making it easier for schools to get rid of the dross, but it puts a great deal of pressure on the senior leaders in the school to turn a teacher around before they get to that stage.

 

Govt attendance targets mean that whilst the admin of a classroom teacher is meant to go down, the admin of a tutor increases. This is why there is such a big push on technology to play a part in attendance. The Learning Platform agenda from the Govt is aimed at driving change in the curriculum, increasing the ability of students to work at their own pace (helping to deal with those that get bored due to lack of challenging materials), it is designed to help schools engage with families more (again, helping attendance) and the next push is real time reporting ... looking at giving direct access to attendance and progress data to families. All designed to get parents back on board.

 

Where does the teacher fit in with this? Technology is not seamless. It breaks ... it is often not fit for purpose and has to be redesigned ... it relies on too many different factors at times. The people that end up dealing with the grief it can generate are the teachers. Reports not saving properly ... you will just have to type them in again ... for a third time. The grade you put in does not match what the parent can see? You will have to ring them and give them the right information ...

 

Teachers do have a hard time ... *so do we* ... perhaps if we were more supportive of the teachers they would be more supportive of our claims to better pay and conditions (and for what it is worth, the LA pension scheme is actually going to work out slightly better for me than a teacher's one would!)

[jcollings]

Oh come on, the "if you don't like it, change" is pathetic. There are many reasons why wouldn't choose teaching or another career. I'm just saying our job is just as complex and difficult as a teacher's; and we are as responsible, if not more, than teachers - so therefore we should get paid accordingly.

 

If teachers get the pay award that they want, is the Govt really going to say support staff can have what they want, too? I don't think so.

 

Much as we are important the reality is we have no direct responsiblity for students or their education. In no way are we more responsible than teachers. Yes we should be paid well but the jobs are not the same.

 

And i don't think my comment was pathetic - if you don't like the terms and conditons, pay etc of public sector work then move on - I did when I had a job I didn't like. More pathetic is the view that things like PPA are "paid coffee breaks"!

 

The "13 weeks off, finish at 3.30" is Sun reader mentality!

Edited April 2, 2008 by jcollings

[crc-ict]

Well said Tony.

 

Surely the debate here should be Is pay fair for all of us? not this attitude that teachers shouldn't get more money because we dont.

 

Working in education isn't an easy touch for any of us, and I personally like to think that we can all work together - and it happens in my experience.

 

And no, I'm not a teacher, but I do have several good friends who are, and they certain work a lot harder and longer hours than the general opinion seems to be here.

Edited April 2, 2008 by crc-ict

[GrumbleDook]

@jcollings

 

Whilst I agree with most things you have said, we *do* have direct responsibility for students and their education.

 

Whether it is access to facilities that are used by the students to learn or teachers to teach, the ethical responsibility that comes as part of control of filters or access to resources, or the academic responsibility of making sure the facilities and resources are fit for purpose.

 

We may not have direct responsibility for classroom management (but we may assist with this through things like remote control software, desktop client security from product such as Securus, etc) or for delivering the curriculum (though we may assist with or create resources used, or manage or support environments used to deliver the curriculum such as VLEs), we still have a level of responsibility. It may vary from school to school ... but it is there unless your school has expressly said that you have no responsibility at all ... in which case there is little or no difference between you and the person replacing you under BSF ... which is why BSF can work for some schools.

[jcollings]

I agree with you to a point but the bottom line is if a group of kids all get F in their GCSE it is unlikely to be our door that the heads comes knocking on.

 

Sure we play a big part in the school but I've never been challenged cos my CVA score is rubbish etc.

[SimpleSi]

They get PPA/NCT; essentially paid coffee breaks

 

Only if they're lazy and inept - good teachers use it to try and balance their stupid work/life balance during term-time.

 

regards

 

Simon

[localzuk]

The 13 weeks holiday is a myth.

 

Take in to account the teachers that are in over holidays doing revision or coursework sessions, not because they haven't done a good enough job during the lessons, but because Govt targets drive schools to hit targets that are often unreachable without changing the whole background of a community (see contink's post).

 

You have made a giant mistake there, assuming the majority of teachers work in GCSE/A-Level classes. The largest number of teachers are KS1 - KS3. These don't have major worries about revision, coursework and the like. For many of these teachers, the 13 week holiday is most definitely not a myth. For example, I know of 2 of our NQT's who went on 4 week holidays over the last summer, never come in during holiday time etc...

 

 

Yes ... once you work out the average time spent doing other things you get to a figure that WITCH gave ... and yes, one of the reasons people in public sector jobs is down to the perks which balance out the wages being slightly below 'industry'. Performance related pay ... it does exist. Competency procedures for crap teachers / HoDs ... it is there. There was a major change in performance reviews last year making it easier for schools to get rid of the dross, but it puts a great deal of pressure on the senior leaders in the school to turn a teacher around before they get to that stage.

 

Performance related pay for teachers does not exist in the same way as it does in industry. Not by far. It is still far more difficult to be fired for incompentence in teaching than it is in any industry job.

 

Where does the teacher fit in with this? Technology is not seamless. It breaks ... it is often not fit for purpose and has to be redesigned ... it relies on too many different factors at times. The people that end up dealing with the grief it can generate are the teachers. Reports not saving properly ... you will just have to type them in again ... for a third time. The grade you put in does not match what the parent can see? You will have to ring them and give them the right information ...

 

Most times, i'm sure you will agree, that technology doesn't work is down to the teachers not choosing suitable tools for the jobs they wish to do. Every single ICT failure in our school of this type is down to people not bothering to check with me before going out and buying $random software and then demanding it be put on a network they know nothing about.

 

Teachers do have a hard time ... *so do we* ... perhaps if we were more supportive of the teachers they would be more supportive of our claims to better pay and conditions (and for what it is worth, the LA pension scheme is actually going to work out slightly better for me than a teacher's one would!)

 

From what I've seen of teachers, I would say that many teachers only seem to have a hard time due to their own faults. I am forever seeing teachers stressed over the most pointless of little things, or stressed over problems they created by not having done their jobs properly in the first place.

 

Sure, teachers do planning in their own time. Sure they take work home. But that amount of work does not suddenly mean that they work more than those of us who work full time, end up doing call-outs, end up being needed for parents evenings, school functions etc... There is a definite inbalance between teachers and everyone else.

[webman]

Much as we are important the reality is we have no direct responsiblity for students or their education. In no way are we more responsible than teachers. Yes we should be paid well but the jobs are not the same.

 

Remove the IT Support provision from a school and see how they manage.

 

I don't believe teachers should be getting any more - they already have adequate deals while we, in general, don't. Just look at how Job Evaluation has shafted a lot of us ICT Technicians and Network Managers in schools. All I'm trying to say is that I think decent support staff pay should be prioritised before giving in to the teacher unions stamping their feet and making some noise.

 

Obviously not all teachers are the same and it would be incorrect to tar them all with the same brush regarding the short working days and numerous "free periods". I'm just generalising

[GrumbleDook]

@localzuk

 

Fair enough point about KS1 and 2 ... though some primary friends would strenously disagree (they tend to fall into the *damn* good teacher bracket though and they *do* need to get a life!). KS3 ... some subjects can get away with things, but core subjects can't. Also, a number of schools will now look at pushing the start of examination courses into year 9 or even have a 2 year KS3 ... which means that the workload is high. Other teachers in schools that don't operate like this can see it coming as the successful schools get good results like this. (actually successful schools get good results for a number of reasons but, like lots of other things, this is seen as a change that will make the difference ... as long as you don't forget the other 23 things the successful school did and forgot to tell you about ... perhaps because they still want to be better than other schools ... sorry, being cynical again).

 

Firing teachers is not hard. Stopping them winning at tribunals because someone cocked up the paperwork is. If a school does the PM right and has dealt with the situation properly you find that the teacher does not have a leg to stand on within 6 months or has moved on. 6months may seem a long time but this is looking at poor performance, not breach of contract. It can take a football club years to get rid of rubbish players. Other industries have their own methods ... some are damn fast, other aren't. Teachers are longer than most but if someone makes a major cock-up then yes .. they are easy to get rid of. It is also worth noting that *we* are just as difficult to get rid of. We have all heard stories from existing (and former) members who have had to work with or under some right numpties who don't know their RJ45 from their zx81.

 

Teachers and the wrong tools ... why are they allowed to buy those tools? Why don't they go through you? Failings of Senior Leadership or yourself to put the proper processes in place should not be thrown back at teachers. (ok .. a bit heavy there but just to show that just because it does not work for you the way it should it does not mean that others should be labelled that way.)

 

Teachers get stressed because of workload; lack of support from further up the chain; having to deal with the kids, their parents and the general public; the mad drive to meet Govt targets and changing Govt agendas (which can often conflict with one another depending on whether you work closely with the LA or people like SSAT!)

 

Yes, teachers get stressed if someone is wrong because they failed to plan properly ... they are not unique like that. It affects us to ...

 

And as for having to do call-outs, parents' evenings ... you can get paid for it or time off in lieu ... if you don't they have a strong word with your union rep about your contract. Don't get taken advantage of. Teachers are known to start work at 8 (catching up with parents dropping kids off), have a complete day teaching ... have to do the morning break duty as part of a roster, teach a lunchtime group and them have meetings in the evening finishing at 5 upwards (in spite of union guidelines saying no more than one meeting a week of 1 hour max!)

 

Some schools seriously abuse teachers in the same way we get abused (note your need to stay behind some evenings).

 

Again .. I do admit that this varies from Dept to Dept. Written coursework in English and Humanities will take longer to mark than Maths. Drama productions take up huge amount of time to get sorted. PE Fixtures after hours ad at weekends take up time ... and many PE departments now teach BTEC course too ... so there is a good chunk of marking in there, and good PE teachers plan more than people think, it is just that we tend to remember the rubbish ones that use to make us all go out and do cross-country running.

 

Yes ... I am married to a teacher and slightly biased on this ... I have worked in a school where teachers were employed to stay onsite until 5, but tended to be there until 6 to work with students ... I have seen the stress, the burnout, the evening and holiday work. I am not saying everyone is like that ... but that is the direction that the Govt is pushing for teachers to go ... extended schools ... VLEs ... home access ... students can learn anytime, anywhere.

 

Yes ... teachers know they are getting shafted and will be shafted even more in the next couple of years.

[webman]

Teachers get paid enough to deal with all of those "issues". Where as we have comparable if not more complex issues to deal with; but generally get paid a lot less.

 

Tony, you couldn't be more biased if you wanted to

[contink]

From what I've seen of teachers, I would say that many teachers only seem to have a hard time due to their own faults. I am forever seeing teachers stressed over the most pointless of little things, or stressed over problems they created by not having done their jobs properly in the first place.

 

All I can think to say is that your school must be truly awful for you to have developed that opinion of teachers.

 

Most of the very real stress I've seen in my fiancee and other friends or colleagues in the profession have been a direct result of poor or downright criminal management through a wide variety of problems, none of their own making. Sure they whinge from time to time about silly stuff, but high blood pressure at 27 and another seriously considering anti-depressants to cope is hardly someone forgetting to check that powerpoint is working for the lesson.

 

 

@Webman

Just because we're married to or marrying to a teacher doesn't just make us biased it makes us better informed.

[contink]

Couple of other points to make and I'll try to be as dispassionate as I can about this as I'm getting angry at the generalisation.

 

 

1. KS1 and KS2... You have to be able to teach ALL the curriculum which means mastering the materials for a wide range of subjects, planning, etc... and dealing with all the latest initiatives.

 

2. KS2 is positively brimming with work especially in year 6. SATs ring any bells? The work involved is monumental especially as this is the schools statistics score talking... The pressure is unbelievable for these teachers and I know at least 2 staff in two different schools who work five 14 hour days pretty much all the time.

 

Perhaps it'd be worth basing your opinions of primary teachers from actual extended periods of observation and action instead of falling back on the old generalisations of little kids = less responsibility/work/etc...

 

 

3. NQT's invariably arrive after their PGCE which is a year of unmitigated hell where a social life is non-existent because of all the paperwork and the NQT year is no better... Planning in triplicate the way it's supposedly possible for all people to do it.. One teacher showed me their workload... turned out to be around 1 hour prep, 1 hour delivery and 1 hour marking/follow-up for a single hour of classroom time when done to specification. He's a new father and just had to say scr*w this and now downs tools at 5pm till 8pm so he can spend time with his family then the books are up again. Heck after all that wouldn't you go on a 4 week holiday, think of it as time in lieu...

 

 

Sure I'm biased... it'd be nice to have more in the house account but frankly I think my fiancee and many others would be happier if the job was actually about educating and not about filling out some stupid statistics report.

[localzuk]

@localzuk

 

Fair enough point about KS1 and 2 ... though some primary friends would strenously disagree (they tend to fall into the *damn* good teacher bracket though and they *do* need to get a life!). KS3 ... some subjects can get away with things, but core subjects can't. Also, a number of schools will now look at pushing the start of examination courses into year 9 or even have a 2 year KS3 ... which means that the workload is high. Other teachers in schools that don't operate like this can see it coming as the successful schools get good results like this. (actually successful schools get good results for a number of reasons but, like lots of other things, this is seen as a change that will make the difference ... as long as you don't forget the other 23 things the successful school did and forgot to tell you about ... perhaps because they still want to be better than other schools ... sorry, being cynical again).

 

Of course some will disagree, I'm generalising based on the experience of teachers I know and have had experience of.

 

Teachers and the wrong tools ... why are they allowed to buy those tools? Why don't they go through you? Failings of Senior Leadership or yourself to put the proper processes in place should not be thrown back at teachers. (ok .. a bit heavy there but just to show that just because it does not work for you the way it should it does not mean that others should be labelled that way.)

 

Procedures are in place. The procedure that exists is: if you want to buy anything related to ICT, speak to me and I'll check it out. This is supported by my boss (bursar). However, many teachers simply ignore it.

 

Teachers get stressed because of workload; lack of support from further up the chain; having to deal with the kids, their parents and the general public; the mad drive to meet Govt targets and changing Govt agendas (which can often conflict with one another depending on whether you work closely with the LA or people like SSAT!)

 

That's the thing, I just can't see that their workload is as high as they are making out any more. Yes, targets are changing constantly - but so is ICT, so are health and safety rules, so are the accounting rules. And we have a very good SMT here, which provides support to teachers very well.

 

Yes, teachers get stressed if someone is wrong because they failed to plan properly ... they are not unique like that. It affects us to ...

 

No, they aren't unique. But I've yet to come across any other profession where planning properly is seen as a luxury and is skipped so often as it is in teaching.

 

And as for having to do call-outs, parents' evenings ... you can get paid for it or time off in lieu ... if you don't they have a strong word with your union rep about your contract. Don't get taken advantage of. Teachers are known to start work at 8 (catching up with parents dropping kids off), have a complete day teaching ... have to do the morning break duty as part of a roster, teach a lunchtime group and them have meetings in the evening finishing at 5 upwards (in spite of union guidelines saying no more than one meeting a week of 1 hour max!)

 

We have 35 teachers in our school, I would hazard a guess that only a fifth of them are in at 8. The rest appear either at 8:30 or just before. They do not have to teach lunchtime groups - this is purely voluntary, and has the advantage they get free lunch if they do. Meetings - we all have meetings, not just teachers.

 

And I agree with the whole parents evenings thing, but it is not as simple as that. Life isn't as easy as complaining to your union and the school rolling over.

 

Yes ... I am married to a teacher and slightly biased on this ... I have worked in a school where teachers were employed to stay onsite until 5, but tended to be there until 6 to work with students ... I have seen the stress, the burnout, the evening and holiday work. I am not saying everyone is like that ... but that is the direction that the Govt is pushing for teachers to go ... extended schools ... VLEs ... home access ... students can learn anytime, anywhere.

 

My father is a teacher, so I know all about the stress. He used to work long hours but he changed over night and decided that enough was enough and now is nowhere near as bad as he was. Sure he still has all the extra bits to do, as he is a dept head KS3, GCSE and A-Level teacher but I still wouldn't say he worked more hours than the average full time member of staff. (And he is an outstanding teacher as well). This is what I mean about a lot of the stress being created by the teachers themselves. They seem to be stressed for stressed sake in many cases, and there is no need for it.

 

Yes ... teachers know they are getting shafted and will be shafted even more in the next couple of years.

 

I would simply say I disagree - teachers are shafted no more than any other industry.

 

All I can think to say is that your school must be truly awful for you to have developed that opinion of teachers.

 

Nope, we got 'Good with Outstanding factors' in our ofsted a couple of months back - and the only reason we didn't get outstanding as a whole was down to some bizarre stuff happening with tracking of progress.

 

Most of the very real stress I've seen in my fiancee and other friends or colleagues in the profession have been a direct result of poor or downright criminal management through a wide variety of problems, none of their own making. Sure they whinge from time to time about silly stuff, but high blood pressure at 27 and another seriously considering anti-depressants to cope is hardly someone forgetting to check that powerpoint is working for the lesson.

 

I know this is going to sound harsh, but that simply points to it being a bad school (which is not the norm) and as such your fiance should be looking at finding another job.

 

@Webman

Just because we're married to or marrying to a teacher doesn't just make us biased it makes us better informed.

 

No, it adds bias too I'm afraid. You are seeing things from a person who you are emotionally attached to's point of view. This is why ofsted is done by external people, as there is no attachment to anyone.

[localzuk]

Couple of other points to make and I'll try to be as dispassionate as I can about this as I'm getting angry at the generalisation.

 

The generalisation is based on experience. And as it is a generalisation, there will of course be edge cases.

 

1. KS1 and KS2... You have to be able to teach ALL the curriculum which means mastering the materials for a wide range of subjects, planning, etc... and dealing with all the latest initiatives.

 

True, but exam pressures are a lot more stressful than those general subject teaching issues.

 

2. KS2 is positively brimming with work especially in year 6. SATs ring any bells? The work involved is monumental especially as this is the schools statistics score talking... The pressure is unbelievable for these teachers and I know at least 2 staff in two different schools who work five 14 hour days pretty much all the time.

 

Sorry, but if they are working such long hours then they *must* be doing something wrong. No KS2 teacher should be working those sort of hours at all - the entire point of the changes to teaching in the last few years is supposed to have got rid of that. I would not say that any of our KS2 teachers work those hours! And we get good progress in KS2.

 

Perhaps it'd be worth basing your opinions of primary teachers from actual extended periods of observation and action instead of falling back on the old generalisations of little kids = less responsibility/work/etc...

 

I did exactly that - I work in a middle school so have contact with KS2 and KS3 teachers.

 

3. NQT's invariably arrive after their PGCE which is a year of unmitigated hell where a social life is non-existent because of all the paperwork and the NQT year is no better...

 

Not all teachers take PGCE's, there are many that do straight teaching degrees and other training. However, I do agree that the PGCE is a stressful course. I agree that the workload in it is very high, but then I also see that they get funded to do the course, and get a golden handshake after their NQT year. So, swings and roundabouts really.

 

Heck after all that wouldn't you go on a 4 week holiday, think of it as time in lieu...

 

That is exactly what it is. That is some of our's argument - that adding the hours that teachers do up doesn't mean they work more hours than full-time members of staff such as network managers, site managers etc...

 

Sure I'm biased... it'd be nice to have more in the house account but frankly I think my fiancee and many others would be happier if the job was actually about educating and not about filling out some stupid statistics report.

 

That is something that I can agree on. Too many statistics. But, as the government says, if you are teaching well, the statistics should be there anyway shouldn't they?

[torledo]

@contink - how about people BORN in this country with no skills to speak of sponging a free ride ? they still massively outweigh the number of migrants receiving benefit. They used to call the nhs cradle to the grave care. I think that should be changed to DWP cradle to grave care.

 

The trouble with NUT saying that teachers can't afford to get on the property ladder. Unfortunately that's the case for us under 35's working in either public sector or private sector across the board. I think the issue of affordability is not necessarily down to an individuals income say a teacher on 25k a year.......but about household income. What concerns me is the single income families or couples (yes Gordon some of those still do exist in this day and age) don't have the luxury of a backup income and 50K+ joint incomes. So while a lot of working couples can afford the large mortgage in the desirable postcodes....the single income working family have to make do with HA stock or lower mortgage for properties in less desirable areas. Thus restricting social mobility to a matter of how much you earn.

 

You can call that market forces if you will, but it's a very sinister market forces,where those that can afford to can buy into a lifestyle and a future for their children whereas those that can't have to take that risk with their childrens future by living in more deprived areas.

[torledo]

@localzuk

 

 

 

Yes ... I am married to a teacher and slightly biased on this ... I have worked in a school where teachers were employed to stay onsite until 5, but tended to be there until 6 to work with students ... I have seen the stress, the burnout, the evening and holiday work. I am not saying everyone is like that ... but that is the direction that the Govt is pushing for teachers to go ... extended schools ... VLEs ... home access ... students can learn anytime, anywhere.

 

Yes ... teachers know they are getting shafted and will be shafted even more in the next couple of years.

 

slightly biased ?

 

You talk about an 8 to 6 working day as if we're talking about a junior doctor working in the nhs in the early 80's working 16 hour shifts.

 

Please, there are a ton of jobs i consider more stressful than what you've described, and yes people get burnout but they don't rely on anti-depressants or have the whiney, shoulder to cry on mentality of the teaching profession.

 

I'm not going to sit here and say that dealing with children and they're parents isn't a difficult task and that the job requires specific skillset.....but why are teachers THE story when it comes to being hard done by. As i've said before my brother regularly does 12 hour days, that's before motorway time to and from work, and he spends a lot more than an hour a week in meetings, and he's got a lot of targets to meet, but he puts his head down and get's on with it. He doesn't expect nor demand job security and 2.45% pay rises, neither of which btw is guaranteed.

 

It's fine saying that you want to argue for better pay and conditions for all public sector workers, but i think when you talk about us supporting teachers...they as a body as a profession need to do more to get us on side.

 

Some of the teachers i've worked with have often complained they have trouble getting a good nights sleep....is that because they had a medical condition or were over stressed ? No, it was because they didn't exert themselves enough during the day. My dad used to say when he heard about someone needing sleeping pills that they should spend a day filling an entire skip with rubble, then they'd have no trouble sleeping like a baby. Maybe teachers should be forced into doing some real work instead of tea and sympathy.

[beeswax]

Some of these posts put me in mind of bisley69. Can't dig up the original posts tho'.

 

aha! Here it is

Edited April 3, 2008 by beeswax