Taking that decision....... 7 to 10

[sparkeh]

Just wondering, do those who are running LTSB realise the implications of MS's clarification on processor support from May 17?

From https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/18581/lifecycle-faq-windows-products

How will Windows 10 LTSBs be supported?

Windows 10 Long Term Servicing Branches, also known as LTSBs, will support the currently released silicon at the time of release of the LTSB. As future silicon generations are released, support will be created through future Windows 10 LTSB releases that customers can deploy for those systems. This enables us to focus on deep integration between Windows and the silicon, while maintaining maximum reliability and compatibility with previous generations of platform and silicon.

So, a LTSB version will not support any hardware released after its own release. Once again, MS has clarified that LTSB is only designed for specific use cases and not general deployment.

 

An article about this here: https://www.computerworld.com/article/3174225/microsoft-windows/microsofts-support-rules-for-windows-10-ltsb-void-allure-to-enterprise-customers.html

[KK20]

This is no different from 8.1 and 7 not being supported on latest silicon. The worst case scenario is a new LTSB installation to be built and tested for new machines in 2019 (the next LTSB release). Buuuuut, you will need to upgrade your installation for "whatever CB is available" in that time anyway so I do not need the difference regarding "time wasted". Again, there is nothing in any of the MS releases that say LTSB is unsupported for general use. MS say "not recommended" and I guess this is because they have zero chance of store sales on LTSB. Not recommended is a far cry from not supported.

 

Let us say (for example) you are a school that is on a lease scheme/decent budget. This scheme/budget gives you the latest and greatest every 3 years. Your upgrade cycle coincides with an LTSB release (i.e. 2016 was your last upgrade). This means that technically your next batch of PCs in 2019 will not work on LTSB 2016. this means 1x rollout of LTSB2016 then another rollout of LTSB2019 (using whatever method you see best - incidentally, MDT supports LTSB). However, on CB you will have had 1 initial rollout followed by 5 interim 6 month upgrades. If LTSB doesn't suit your requirements then roll out CB. As long as you lasted at least 6 months then you are still no worse off timewise - the same testing will need to be done each "update" anyway as history has shown all sorts of issues crop up each upgrade.

 

I run a mix of CB and LTSB as it suits me but I cannot see why people shouldn't run LTSB if the situation fits. LTSB "not getting bug fixes" is FUD, LTSB does get bug fixes (else KMS wouldn't have worked for all users in 2016 LTSB initially - you needed the first cumulative patch to enable full KMS support with a 2012 server + 2016 host key)

Edited November 24, 2017 by KK20

[mavhc]

Yeah, the wording is (apart from for Surface devices) "As a general guideline, a PC with Microsoft Office installed is a general-purpose device, typically used by an information worker, and therefore it is better suited for the Semi-Annual servicing channel"

 

> Nope SSD, PCs are old, SSDs were an interim fix until funds available.

 

I know the feeling, luckily I could just take all the SSDs we bought, and put them in 4 year old £145 core i5s that ict-direct sold me.

 

> FOG over WDS/MDT because it works without any intervention from me (all our PCs are pxe boot).

WDS does the same though, multicast etc, I've not used FOG in ages, wonder what's new. It's MDT that does the non imaging parts.

 

> HR do not use network storage because the compliance officer says not to.

 

I'd just use encryption. Can't you restore the VEEAM backup anyway?

 

> Capita

 

Should have just said, no wonder.

 

> Roaming profiles is still a supported mechanism within windows

 

True, my point is more MS don't care about it, they're not going to improve it.

 

> I am yet to find anyone that has installed windows 10 and successfully upgraded each time without changing their GPOs each time (im not talking about additional features, merely existing working environment). In fact it has been the complete opposite, each patch has brought additional "features" that have needed removing, patching or hacking about. Unless you have a base of 1703, you will still need to remove and disable provisioned apps after an upgrade. Even future upgrades will bring extra items that need removing (people bar springs to mind for one). This is extra time that I can nil afford.

 

Why does people bar have to be removed? I don't recall changing anything for 1709, the main new thing I did was for 1703 to re-enable Settings and control panel when they got gpo control back.

 

I prefer getting a message from 1 person every 6 months that something's broken, rather than 4 at the same time every 2 years. Don't have to find 2 weeks every 2 years to put aside for upgrades, it's just 1 hour per week instead.

 

> I'll keep saying this to everyone who tells someone to "do it this way". No, everyone has a reason for setting things up the way they do, each person has their own network with their own pressures and their own set of circumstances. Once thing for certain, if I was setting up a network from scratch then I'd go Linux but that is another story. (we have a small 3 computer Linux "lab" for 6th form ICT, it is viable on an AD network....) Not everyone has an identical setup, nor the man-power to keep a continual upgrade system running. Remember, once you go CB then you are on (at a minimum) a 2 year decreasing upgrade/test plan (you do get the 60 day grace period after-all).

 

LDAP for linux was rather confusing I found, that plus getting puppet to merge a file of mac addresses <> hostnames for the dhcp server.

 

And making Chrome fonts look not terrible.

 

I use DFS to have >1 server with the software distribution share on, to reduce load.

 

Also keep hitting terrible companies until their fix their terrible software.

 

It's less "do it this way" more "make sure you evaluate different ways of working to save time in the long run" and "don't just disable everything new"

[Sheridan]

My biggest issue with 10 is I get a nice stable image, then updates break it or things start to happen like explorer hanging a lot. This has become a big issue for us and it only started several months after we rolled out 10 - hinting at it being an update that caused it.

 

Obviously we test our builds, but you can't test everything and MS seem to introduce new issues with every new build. I still can't quite believe the mess they made of the start menu, and so many of us have opted for a third party tool!

[garethEds]

Thank you everyone for your comments in what has been an interesting threat for me. I'm no wiser really. Windows 7 does everything we need and I don't think we have the time to follow the Windows 10 upgrade and break every release.

 

Sigh.

 

Not sure. Not sure. Roll on the weekend to think about it.

 

One question I guess is how do your schools deal with an issue when an update breaks something (like profiles)?

 

Gareth

[gshaw]

Think a few others have echoed my sentiments on here around the CB builds. Back in the XP days and into Win7 I used to prefer the medium-fat image approach too (Windows + Office + generic apps) then just run any specialist stuff over the top.

 

However the landscape has changed so much that static images can't keep up now. Started with Flash, Chrome etc. changing so regularly I pulled those out the image and installed on-demand during imaging. Then next it was Office as we want to move from 2013 to 2016 for Office 365 integration so I needed that granular too.

 

Now the OS is a variable too so that's come out and we have a completely dynamic Task Sequence in MDT for it. When 1709 came out I had it deployed on a test machine about 10 minutes after the download finished as the only change I had to make was switching the WIM out in the TS.

 

Now software is always a PITA and that's where your time and investment in packaging tools comes in. We went through a lot of pain making custom silent installs for all our stuff and whether that's SCCM, App-V or even something left-field like our ZENWorks environment it'll pay you back in being able to split software from your image.

 

Also from reading on here classic profile management be it mandatory or roaming looks to cause a lot of issues. We don't do either and leave profiles on machines for max 7 days before they get wiped. Think that may be why I didn't hit the Start Menu issues that have afflicted so many.

 

The new features of CB makes it worthwhile such as Exploit Guard (EMET) for security, Files on Demand for true cloud storage integration and so on. I use LTSB for a few specialised cases but generally sticking to CB and managing it best we can with the tools available.

[Sheridan]

Thank you everyone for your comments in what has been an interesting threat for me. I'm no wiser really. Windows 7 does everything we need and I don't think we have the time to follow the Windows 10 upgrade and break every release.

 

Sigh.

 

Not sure. Not sure. Roll on the weekend to think about it.

 

One question I guess is how do your schools deal with an issue when an update breaks something (like profiles)?

 

Gareth

 

I wish I'd stayed with 7 until 10 was working - a timely example is I've just been called into an IT Suite (running 1703 with CSM 4.3.1) and at least 8 had frozen - some straight after login, some after 40 or so minutes of use. This is now a regular event and occurs only on 1703 regardless of hardware. Of course our testing didn't reveal this as its random and variable.

[caffrey]

On the latest 1709 on an Intel compute stick, it disabled the wifi adapter and deleted past connections - which was great considering where they were installed..... There was no way I could've foreseen it either

[NB9457]

Currently I'm sticking to Windows 7, having trialled 10, I didn't quite feel it was there, I felt it needed too much baby sitting and with the school being quite large and plenty of other jobs to do, at the minute is doesn't make sense for us, there's nothing Windows 7 can't do for us at the moment.

 

Whilst being on the latest and greatest is good in many ways, there's downsides, too. One thing I think some techs forget is what their actual job is, not just to run a network, it's to provide tools to aid learning and teaching. We all joke about teachers not being IT literate, but we are here to help them, no matter how big or small an issue is, whether or not they've forgotten how to unmute their volume, they have a lesson to teach and if that lesson involves IT, it's our priority to ensure we get it resolved ASAP. This is where Win10 currently falls short for me, for the little niggles staff were having, it was taking away from their teaching time and yielding no real benefits, plus with the bi-annual updates and things sometimes breaking, again, this takes away from lessons in the sense we have to change policies, reinstall software/drivers and so on.

 

Staff will have a better perception of IT if it's reliable and we are friendly and get things done, most staff couldn't care less if we were still on XP, as long as it works, they can logon on quick and know they can provide a lesson and access the tools they need, that's all that matters to them.

 

That's just my opinion though, as this thread has shown, we all entitled and everyone has their own methods, again none right or wrong, every school is different, so we make things work for the people we work with.

[kennysarmy]

Currently I'm sticking to Windows 7, having trialled 10, I didn't quite feel it was there, I felt it needed too much baby sitting and with the school being quite large and plenty of other jobs to do, at the minute is doesn't make sense for us, there's nothing Windows 7 can't do for us at the moment.

 

Whilst being on the latest and greatest is good in many ways, there's downsides, too. One thing I think some techs forget is what their actual job is, not just to run a network, it's to provide tools to aid learning and teaching. We all joke about teachers not being IT literate, but we are here to help them, no matter how big or small an issue is, whether or not they've forgotten how to unmute their volume, they have a lesson to teach and if that lesson involves IT, it's our priority to ensure we get it resolved ASAP. This is where Win10 currently falls short for me, for the little niggles staff were having, it was taking away from their teaching time and yielding no real benefits, plus with the bi-annual updates and things sometimes breaking, again, this takes away from lessons in the sense we have to change policies, reinstall software/drivers and so on.

 

Staff will have a better perception of IT if it's reliable and we are friendly and get things done, most staff couldn't care less if we were still on XP, as long as it works, they can logon on quick and know they can provide a lesson and access the tools they need, that's all that matters to them.

 

That's just my opinion though, as this thread has shown, we all entitled and everyone has their own methods, again none right or wrong, every school is different, so we make things work for the people we work with.

 

 

What if you buy some new PC's and there are no Windows 7 drivers?

[Steve21]

What if you buy some new PC's and there are no Windows 7 drivers?

 

Ironically the issue we have atm Got a few laptops in this week and are putting 7 back on them until we move whole site to 10 (Probably at Summer) and there are no official 7 drivers! Derp...

 

Managed to patch together a set that will allow it to work, but certainly shouldn't take this long to sort a single laptop model out!

 

Steve

[NB9457]

What if you buy some new PC's and there are no Windows 7 drivers?

 

If we got new PCs any time soon, I'd have to check I wasn't dreaming!

 

We recently bough refurb Dells in summer and I can't see us having any 7th series intel or Ryzen CPUs before Win7 becomes EoL.

 

As I said, for us, Win7 is working and well, may be the same others, some may be blessed with great budgets and new servers and PCs and good refresh cycles, unfortunately we aren't in that position at the moment. Luckily we are making the right steps to get there and the school know of the 2020 deadline and we are planning for it, but it'll be Aug 2019 before we start jumping ships and get our estate ready for the change.

[Shadow_Walker]

Every programmer uses the command line, need to know it, plus it teaches you more how computers work. Why not teach Python to the older pupils too? Much better than VB and actually used in the real world.

 

Do they? The computing teachers have never asked it here and they teach all sorts in Computer Science.

[Passat1983ICTech]

hi there if this was me user the windows 10 LTSB 1607 there not a lot of rubbish on this just a lot of testing with a pc and laptops we have AIO and laptop witch the laptop driver are not comp able with windows 10 and the AIO driver crash office 2016 wireless driver are another on with laptops witch a lot of find out but with WUS it will find the driver as well but if you look a round for the diver and inject them in to the image

 

hope this help

[mavhc]

Do they? The computing teachers have never asked it here and they teach all sorts in Computer Science.

 

Are the teachers also programmers?

 

The other day we were talking about lists and data structures, so we used pip3 to install isbnlib via the command line and made a program to store library books.

 

Also use it to demonstrate network stuff, ipconfig, ping, traceroute.

 

And git obviously, if you're not using git you're a terrible programmer (I still don't use it enough).

 

When we did sql they used sqlite from the command line.

 

And anyone who asks how to learn to hack gets a lesson on it.

[Shadow_Walker]

 

And git obviously, if you're not using git you're a terrible programmer (I still don't use it enough).

 

 

Are the teachers also programmers?

 

Yes and very capable ones!

[mavhc]

Yes and very capable ones!

 

Fair enough, most CS teachers haven't been recent professional programmers though I expect.

 

https://help.github.com/articles/applying-for-a-student-developer-pack/ might be useful for students, free cloud credits etc

[jmak]

Our reason is quite straightforward: we have touch screen devices and they definitely do have an impact on learning. Some of our youngest pupils can access resources much more easily than with a mouse or trackpad.

 

I wouldn't have been in such a rush otherwise though.

[Zourous]

I read this thread with interest. We’ve gone to W10 CBB on mainly student devices and other new devices for the last year or so, but still have plenty of W7 devices around. We’ve been stung by a couple of big problems along the way and during that time microsoft moved the goal posts to 2 major updates per year. I never thought LTSB was a viable option until I read about it on here. Considering we have over 1000 devices to support, LTSB is now looking the better option for stability and ease of deployment going forward. Our intention was always to take it slowly and see how it went and it looks like we took the wrong route. W10 is not as good as we would have hoped and MS are as faltering as ever. I wonder if W7 will get the kind of extensions XP did when 2020 comes around?

[gshaw]

I read this thread with interest. We’ve gone to W10 CBB on mainly student devices and other new devices for the last year or so, but still have plenty of W7 devices around. We’ve been stung by a couple of big problems along the way and during that time microsoft moved the goal posts to 2 major updates per year. I never thought LTSB was a viable option until I read about it on here. Considering we have over 1000 devices to support, LTSB is now looking the better option for stability and ease of deployment going forward. Our intention was always to take it slowly and see how it went and it looks like we took the wrong route. W10 is not as good as we would have hoped and MS are as faltering as ever. I wonder if W7 will get the kind of extensions XP did when 2020 comes around?

Out of interest what were the show-stoppers for you?

 

It always was two versions really, 1511 > 1607 > 1703 > 1709 just the naming has changed. No more CBB status for a verified build.

 

It's just a case of one behind the latest is relatively stable and the latest built goes out for "beta" testing to your Power Users before letting it loose elsewhere.

[sparkeh]

Considering we have over 1000 devices to support, LTSB is now looking the better option for stability and ease of deployment going forward.

I am really interested in how people considering/using LTSB will address the hardware support.

 

So what do you do if you find yourself in the following position: you have deployed LTSB to end user devices and a while later you need to buy new devices. You find that the current generation of processors are not supported by your version of LTSB (and never will be). Do you try to source old hardware? Wait for the next version of LTSB or move to CB?

[free780]

Or come to the conclusion that not every device in your environment is on the same version of Windows 10. It's a shift in mindset LTSB is meant more for PCs in hospitals or power stations. WaaS will at some point be used to EOL hardware. If you "choose" Microsoft software I would be surprised under Microsoft 365 that LTSB isn't included.

[Zourous]

Out of interest what were the show-stoppers for you?

 

Combination of upgrade to 1607 + sophos took the local dvd drive out for 90+ teacher laptops. Ok it was probably more a sophos thing, but still forced to do the upgrade to stop W10 expiring.

 

Upgrade to anniversary to fix wsus and then updates kept installing and then immediately uninstalling preventing login.

 

Two problems that didn’t need to happen.

[Zourous]

 

So what do you do if you find yourself in the following position: you have deployed LTSB to end user devices and a while later you need to buy new devices. You find that the current generation of processors are not supported by your version of LTSB (and never will be). Do you try to source old hardware? Wait for the next version of LTSB or move to CB?

 

Go to CB until LTSB arrives. Not so bad if it’s just in the odd instance.

[Zourous]

I guess it’s us taking control of Microsoft and not Microsoft taking control of us. It’s nothing new with most people skipping Vista and 8. Now we can’t skip a version any more we’re simply choosing a different flavour.