RM likes or Bespoke network

[ITGURU]

Does anyone still use RM ? if so, whats the advantages over a bespoke in-house network? Whats the typical support costs per year?

 

if a school has always had a network built and managed in-house would there be any valid reasons to have it run and managed by a third party company such as RM, when they have a network that the team know inside out so can immediately resolve any issues that occur throughout the entire network.

[Davit2005]

Without starting a RM vs Vanilla network debate

 

No, I would defo not go RM from a Vanilla network.

 

RM has some good features and may suit some organisations but all can be done with a Vanilla network with a bit of time, effort and other resources. Teachers ability to reset passwords, delivery of software to end devices, Start Menu customisation etc., creation of AD accounts (home folders, profiles, email accounts) is all possible without RM.

[Norphy]

We're running a CC4 network at the moment. I'm counting the days until I can rip it out and put something properly configured in.

 

Seriously, don't do it. Even from a financial POV it makes very little sense.

[ITGURU]

I have no intention to change what we have but just wondered about MAT schools where each site had different setups. I think you get better performance put of a vanilla network.

[CamelMan]

We went from CC4 -> Vanilla 2 years ago. From £4,000 a year maintenance to zip. Less problems, less frustrations and more freedom.

 

But we had the knowledge internally to manage the system, not every school is in that boat, however from using CC4 for 3 years I personally could not recommend it and would always look to a vanilla solution if possible.

[ITGURU]

We went from CC4 -> Vanilla 2 years ago. From £4,000 a year maintenance to zip. Less problems, less frustrations and more freedom.

 

But we had the knowledge internally to manage the system, not every school is in that boat, however from using CC4 for 3 years I personally could not recommend it and would always look to a vanilla solution if possible.

 

Thanks, I'm just looking for some evidence to back up the reasons why we shouldn't change if it was considered or given to me.

[rad]

On topic, but slightly off topic, We are RM, have a basic admin person do account passwords, how do you manage accounts on a Vanilla network without going on a server?

Do you have software to do the same as AD but on a PC?

[ITGURU]

On topic, but slightly off topic, We are RM, have a basic admin person do account passwords, how do you manage accounts on a Vanilla network without going on a server?

Do you have software to do the same as AD but on a PC?

 

Only us IT staff reset account passwords, however Active Directory Users and Computers can be installed onto any computer and then permissions assigned to restrict what they can do.

 

Alternatively a script file can be made where the user can enter the logon username and then the new password.

[psydii]

On topic, but slightly off topic, We are RM, have a basic admin person do account passwords, how do you manage accounts on a Vanilla network without going on a server?

Do you have software to do the same as AD but on a PC?

 

Salamander AD + Password Control

 

In future (perhaps) we might take advantage of the self-service password reset tool via Office365/AzureAD.

[psydii]

...if a school has always had a network built and managed in-house would there be any valid reasons to have it run and managed by a third party company such as RM...

 

What do SLT think of the service the in house team provide?

 

How much does that service cost? (think about salaries)

 

What are the current pain points, how long/what will it cost for the in house team to resolve them?

 

Does the school need the flexibility that in house managed services can potentially provide?

[AlanD]

I'm always slightly embarrassed to own up to using RM CC4. I used to run a vanilla network (pre CC3) and was largely against our move to RM (on cost basis) but I think I have at least arrived at being neutral now and possibly even pro RM.

 

The big thing is that RM provides a kind of straight jacket in which you run your school network. I hated that at first. And I found it difficult to justify of the cost was worth it. But that straight jacket provides a kind of insurance for the school. If something happened to me - RM could remotely (or come on site) and take over or fix anything really easily. Yes - I know there are plenty of MCSE qualified network managers that could do a good job taking over a vanilla implementation - but without knowing or understanding the way it was set up can lead to delays or mistakes.

 

I usually do my best to leave RM support deal with problems - which saves me a surprising amount of time - because often they have seen the issues before and I don't have to keep reading and filtering all the latest tech updates from Microsoft.

 

A vanilla system might be the right choice for large school with a team of qualified technicians, but its difficult for a smaller school (we are 800 ish) with a single technician and network manager to be an expert in SANs, servers, desktops, switches, VLANs, wireless and I am quite happy to relinquish some of the core responsibility for this to an external agency.

 

I do like the station BUILD capability of CC4 (yes it CAN be done on a vanilla network too). I like the package deployment capability and monitoring (yes - you CAN do this with a Vanilla network of course...perhaps not as visible as CC4's tick boxes though). I like the printer deployment and print quota system (yes you CAN get great third party tools for vanilla systems). I like their integration with Microsoft's One Drive (yes - there are third party tools for vanilla systems). I love the way all of these things are pulled together in one user interface with computer and user profiles, GPOs, user management, task scheduling etc. I quite like their Single Sign On with RMunify but as we already do O365 and Google with AD connect and GADS/GAPS it doesn't seem worth the extra money.

 

No - its not perfect. There are still maddening bugs in CC4 management - I hate the way right clicking periodically stops working. Scheduled tasks won't resume after they are suspended if they miss a slot. If you move a user they won't subsequently delete without messing about with RM's database. In fact - I reckon at least half the calls I make to RM are because of issues with the RM management software itself. But they do listen - and things do - eventually - (usually anyhow ) get fixed. And no - I'm not sure its good value for money - but it is worth something. We are constantly told by new teachers coming to our school how reliable everything seems and how different it has been from their previous schools where network were often off line - sometimes for days at a time...so perhaps that says something.

[Davit2005]

My first experience of RM left a very bitter taste in my mouth maybe not the fault of RM entirely but other mitigating circumstances.

 

To cut a long story short about 8 years ago the secondary school progressed to an academy due to performance and we as a local college were tasked with providing the support or rather me initially having just taken the position trying to also overcome a bit of bad blood. This included sorting the many IT related issues out i.e. regular 24hr unplanned downtime, no backups, non-existent AV protection ( might as well be), servers full of viruses, DC hard drive space issues and RM easymail.

 

The Academy/school had decided that it couldn't afford/didn't see the need for RM anymore, and this is the straight jacket that has been mentioned above. With the school not wanting to pay the money we had to remove RM completely which was NO EASY TASK. RM (well CC3) makes/made changing GPO the vanilla way almost impossible as we found it changing things back.

 

After a bit of a RAID admin issue we ended up rebuilding both domain controllers which immediately sorted the regular 24hr downtime issues we had. And lets just say we didn't bother re-installing any of the RM. It took a lot of long hours and testing to get the whole network back to vanilla.

 

All I can say is that if you are thinking of going RM from Vanilla consider all pro's and con's for you specific organisation.

 

There are many vanilla ways to do stuff instead of RM but RM may provide a one stop shop which may suit.

Edited January 4, 2017 by Davit2005

[AlanD]

By the way, if you think of moving to RM I'd advise you to drive a massive bargain with the cost of CC4 and its licences...because they are going to be very happy with the annual charges (actually.... Possibly there is no capital cost up front any longer...but there was when we adopted it).

 

I guess the real litmus test is to visit (ideally randomly) some schools with RM CC4 and some with Vanilla networks - and talk to a some teachers who use ICT (ideally not those who manage the network). Get a feeling to see if there is pattern. I'm sure there are some badly run RM networks (with clowns in charge who are forever fiddling with stuff) and brilliantly run vanilla networks with an MSCE in charge who lays down the law upsetting lots of users by not giving them permission to install their own software. But I'd be willing to place a bet (well..a small bet anyhow) that in main, the RM stuff just works - albeit with maddening limitations...and vanilla schools will be characterised by random but regular disruption - and employ at least one extra technician. But don't take my word for it...get out there, and take a look.

[ITGURU]

By the way, if you think of moving to RM I'd advise you to drive a massive bargain with the cost of CC4 and its licences...because they are going to be very happy with the annual charges (actually.... Possibly there is no capital cost up front any longer...but there was when we adopted it).

 

I guess the real litmus test is to visit (ideally randomly) some schools with RM CC4 and some with Vanilla networks - and talk to a some teachers who use ICT (ideally not those who manage the network). Get a feeling to see if there is pattern. I'm sure there are some badly run RM networks (with clowns in charge who are forever fiddling with stuff) and brilliantly run vanilla networks with an MSCE in charge who lays down the law upsetting lots of users by not giving them permission to install their own software. But I'd be willing to place a bet (well..a small bet anyhow) that in main, the RM stuff just works - albeit with maddening limitations...and vanilla schools will be characterised by random but regular disruption - and employ at least one extra technician. But don't take my word for it...get out there, and take a look.

 

I would never be considering to move to RM at our school.. It's just with MAT schools they can have different setups. I'm an MCSA,MCITP Network manager that runs out own build network from scratch. What school would let staff install software on it? It should be standard security...

 

Random but regular disruption?? In the last 13 years I have never had a server go down (touch wood) and the only disruption is 5 minutes per server each half term to install the windows updates.

[victory2015]

only issue is if your school joins a MAT that uses and promotes CC4 and wants to melt your highly efficient vanilla network into the abyss , that's something we may all find on the horizon, personally feel the issues we had with BSF are going seem like child's play if some of our heads join certain MATs out there with centralised ÎT setups! ...

[elsiegee40]

only issue is if your school joins a MAT that uses and promotes CC4 and wants to melt your highly efficient vanilla network into the abyss , that's something we may all find on the horizon, personally feel the issues we had with BSF are going seem like child's play if some of our heads join certain MATs out there with centralised ÎT setups! ...

 

I think it's more likely to be the other way round. A MAT screaming when the network is RM and everything they have across sites is vanilla.

[mukz]

One of the schools we may take over help use rm, the support there who are a nice bunch have known nothing other than RM. they complain of limitations sometimes but hey doesnt everything sometimes cause problems for you. It is usually doing a use case scenario and deciding on something with clear objectives. There are many arguments for and against for both. I would always prefer vanilla but thats just me.

[AlanD]

That sounds eminently intelligent. I think RM is proabbly the right choice for us...it may be the right choice for other schools - but it may not be, One technician here - 450 PCs and dozens of laptops and tablets - easily managed. Problems - other than the obvious get fasttracked to RM's support - and usually they connect remotely and fix it. Not sure the annual charge is worth another technician - but its certainly worth something. Yes there is a cost....but some pay over a thousand for cloud managed wireless alone...and then pay for managed print services (we use RM printer credits) ... and often another thousand for web filtering....so you have to look at as one of those costs.

[jimmy_2k]

The only other thing I would chuck out there is; if RMs CC customer base is falling with Network Managers removing CC due to cost and manageability. Will they have enough money coming in to be able to develop this product into Windows 10 and beyond? They could one day decide that this isn't profitable and discontinue it or the development and support suffers due to lack of uptake.

[AlanD]

...oh, I don’t think the future is windows at all. Right now that might be a difficult move for schools with accounting and MIS systems ...and Sibelius...and autocad...but the landscape is changing...

 

Word PowerPoint and excel run just fine on tablets....and students will have their own just like calculators...in fact most students carry phones with better capabilities than many of the PCs in schools....