Tesla Model 3

[crc-ict]

If we are to survive the climate emergency, we all need to start reigning our world damaging habits in a bit.

 

Herein lies the problem though. The individual motorist is always cited as the main problem with climate change, and always the target of new initiatives (?bullying tactics?) to change. But the reality is that individual private motorists are far from the only source of climate-damaging emissions. And even if we all switch to electric cars tomorrow, the country doesn't have an emission-free electricity network, so you just move the emissions elsewhere.

 

Think of all the lorries that are chugging around pumping out particulates and CO2. Same with the buses and black cabs on all the town roads. Most of them are still diesel, and from observation, a lot of them certainly aren't clean models.

 

Surely these are an 'easier' target for replacement for clean models or greener alternatives? Why are we not getting more freight back on the rails, shifting 50 or so containers up and down the country at the same time rather than each one being hauled around by an individual lorry. This would then be an ideal case for smaller alternative fuel trucks to do the short, 'last-mile' leg from the rail hub to the final destination. Town/city buses are another case in point. They run on known, defined routes, so would be easy to schedule for electric vehicles. These could also help to ease congestion, with the benefits of better local air quality because traffic can actually flow rather than sitting in queues.

 

And don't even get me started on air travel! If people have to change their everyday lives, changing how they do the essentials like going to work, shopping, getting kids to school etc, how can we leave air travel untouched? As much as we might like it, you can't say that jetting half-way around the work for a week or two in the sun is an essential, and that has a massive carbon footprint. Especially so when you factor in the carbon footprint from all of those people travelling to the airport as well! And you only have to look at Google Earth around places like Gatwick to see the phenomenal volume of cars parked around the place to estimate how bad that is.

 

Yes, I know it's a given that we need to do something, but the effort and the 'pain' from doing so needs to be fairly distributed.

[mavhc]

We have to do everything, and 10x more than everything, yesterday. Can't wait for everyone else to lead. There's no fairly distributed, we're rich, the billions on the equator are the ones who'll be affected by our actions.

 

EV cars are 3 times as efficient in miles/kWh than gasoline cars.

 

The carbon emissions of driving 10,000 miles:

Average Electric Vehicle 0.96t CO2e *

 

Average Petrol Car 2.99t CO2e

 

Average Diesel car 2.88t CO2e

* vehicle charged from UK mains electricity

 

And that's just CO2, nothing about the cancer causing particles emitted directly onto the street where you live, work, and your kids go to school.

[bald_pig]

Herein lies the problem though. The individual motorist is always cited as the main problem with climate change, and always the target of new initiatives (?bullying tactics?) to change. But the reality is that individual private motorists are far from the only source of climate-damaging emissions. And even if we all switch to electric cars tomorrow, the country doesn't have an emission-free electricity network, so you just move the emissions elsewhere.

 

Think of all the lorries that are chugging around pumping out particulates and CO2. Same with the buses and black cabs on all the town roads. Most of them are still diesel, and from observation, a lot of them certainly aren't clean models.

 

Surely these are an 'easier' target for replacement for clean models or greener alternatives? Why are we not getting more freight back on the rails, shifting 50 or so containers up and down the country at the same time rather than each one being hauled around by an individual lorry. This would then be an ideal case for smaller alternative fuel trucks to do the short, 'last-mile' leg from the rail hub to the final destination. Town/city buses are another case in point. They run on known, defined routes, so would be easy to schedule for electric vehicles. These could also help to ease congestion, with the benefits of better local air quality because traffic can actually flow rather than sitting in queues.

 

And don't even get me started on air travel! If people have to change their everyday lives, changing how they do the essentials like going to work, shopping, getting kids to school etc, how can we leave air travel untouched? As much as we might like it, you can't say that jetting half-way around the work for a week or two in the sun is an essential, and that has a massive carbon footprint. Especially so when you factor in the carbon footprint from all of those people travelling to the airport as well! And you only have to look at Google Earth around places like Gatwick to see the phenomenal volume of cars parked around the place to estimate how bad that is.

 

Yes, I know it's a given that we need to do something, but the effort and the 'pain' from doing so needs to be fairly distributed.

 

Not to mention the domestic and international industrial pollution on top of that. Transport is a relatively small portion.

I wonder what proportion of that manufacturing pollution is the production of ev vehicles

[localzuk]

Herein lies the problem though. The individual motorist is always cited as the main problem with climate change, and always the target of new initiatives (?bullying tactics?) to change. But the reality is that individual private motorists are far from the only source of climate-damaging emissions. And even if we all switch to electric cars tomorrow, the country doesn't have an emission-free electricity network, so you just move the emissions elsewhere.

 

Every little helps. Also, the efficiency of a ICE is far lower than even our worst coal power plant. So, the emissions are lower from electricity generation than burning petrol/diesel. The attitude of "other things are worse" is not a great way forward - we all need to make changes as it has a knock on effect.

Think of all the lorries that are chugging around pumping out particulates and CO2. Same with the buses and black cabs on all the town roads. Most of them are still diesel, and from observation, a lot of them certainly aren't clean models.

 

All of those things are moving to cleaner technologies. Lorry makers are working on electric models. "Black Cabs" in London have much more stringent requirements now, with the move to electric happening.

Surely these are an 'easier' target for replacement for clean models or greener alternatives? Why are we not getting more freight back on the rails, shifting 50 or so containers up and down the country at the same time rather than each one being hauled around by an individual lorry. This would then be an ideal case for smaller alternative fuel trucks to do the short, 'last-mile' leg from the rail hub to the final destination. Town/city buses are another case in point. They run on known, defined routes, so would be easy to schedule for electric vehicles. These could also help to ease congestion, with the benefits of better local air quality because traffic can actually flow rather than sitting in queues.

 

Why not both?

And don't even get me started on air travel! If people have to change their everyday lives, changing how they do the essentials like going to work, shopping, getting kids to school etc, how can we leave air travel untouched? As much as we might like it, you can't say that jetting half-way around the work for a week or two in the sun is an essential, and that has a massive carbon footprint. Especially so when you factor in the carbon footprint from all of those people travelling to the airport as well! And you only have to look at Google Earth around places like Gatwick to see the phenomenal volume of cars parked around the place to estimate how bad that is.

 

Air travel is disastrous to the planet, absolutely. Which is why so many people are against the new runway for Heathrow.

Yes, I know it's a given that we need to do something, but the effort and the 'pain' from doing so needs to be fairly distributed.

What's fairer than "it affects everyone, so everyone has to change"?

[crc-ict]

We have to do everything, and 10x more than everything, yesterday. Can't wait for everyone else to lead. There's no fairly distributed, we're rich, the billions on the equator are the ones who'll be affected by our actions.

 

I don't mean fairly distributed across the world, I mean within our own country! The individual gets targeted, penalised and has to bear the cost of change, while for example the haulage and transport industries get to carry on as normal.

 

EV cars are 3 times as efficient in miles/kWh than gasoline cars.

 

The carbon emissions of driving 10,000 miles:

Average Electric Vehicle 0.96t CO2e *

 

Average Petrol Car 2.99t CO2e

 

Average Diesel car 2.88t CO2e

* vehicle charged from UK mains electricity

 

And that's just CO2, nothing about the cancer causing particles emitted directly onto the street where you live, work, and your kids go to school.

 

You really should be on commission from the likes of Tesla!

 

Are these figures any more meaningful in the real world than the MPG figures that manufacturers like to claim for conventional cars, but that you can't get anywhere near unless you drive around at a constant speed, with all your panel gaps taped up and almost in a vacuum?

[localzuk]

I don't mean fairly distributed across the world, I mean within our own country! The individual gets targeted, penalised and has to bear the cost of change, while for example the haulage and transport industries get to carry on as normal.

 

The haulage industry jump at every possible opportunity to save money through efficiencies. Its why you see so few "old" lorries around for most of the big companies - the reduction in fuel consumption of new models far outweighs the cost of the vehicles themselves. Its why the industry is so interested in electric lorries and self drive lorries etc...

[mavhc]

I don't mean fairly distributed across the world, I mean within our own country! The individual gets targeted, penalised and has to bear the cost of change, while for example the haulage and transport industries get to carry on as normal.

 

 

 

You really should be on commission from the likes of Tesla!

 

Are these figures any more meaningful in the real world than the MPG figures that manufacturers like to claim for conventional cars, but that you can't get anywhere near unless you drive around at a constant speed, with all your panel gaps taped up and almost in a vacuum?

 

That's why we should tax everything the amount it costs to clean up the pollution it causes, then no one gets a free ride, and everyone's incentivized to invent cleaner systems.

 

True, free car please Tesla.

 

Well, the EV numbers are real, I get 4 miles/kWh. Of course my car is charged from sunlight and nuclear power, and wind 99% of the time, so it's more like 0.1t

[Andrew_C]

The elephant in the room - there are too many people, and most of those would dearly like the opportunity to have a car of any sort. And drinking water. Trivial things like that.

 

We are tinkering, needs doing, but it is just tinkering.

 

Spread the cuts evenly? Yeah right. Tax air travel or ICE cars at punitive levels; the rich will just pay up, and you and I will be walking.

[mavhc]

The elephant in the room - there are too many people, and most of those would dearly like the opportunity to have a car of any sort. And drinking water. Trivial things like that.

 

We are tinkering, needs doing, but it is just tinkering.

 

Spread the cuts evenly? Yeah right. Tax air travel or ICE cars at punitive levels; the rich will just pay up, and you and I will be walking.

 

That's fine, there's not many rich people by definition.

 

Doesn't actually cost much to fix the problem, only about 5% of GDP. Used to be 3%, but no one bothered. 6% next year.

[DalekSec]

The elephant in the room - there are too many people

 

Thanos was right

[mavhc]

Thanos was right

 

Implementation was lazy though, didn't pick the right beings, not solve the long term problem in 100 years when the population has doubled again.

 

Why not give everyone a universal conscious ability to understand their resource usage?

[sted]

The elephant in the room - there are too many people, and most of those would dearly like the opportunity to have a car of any sort. And drinking water. Trivial things like that.

 

We are tinkering, needs doing, but it is just tinkering.

 

Spread the cuts evenly? Yeah right. Tax air travel or ICE cars at punitive levels; the rich will just pay up, and you and I will be walking.

and without affordable transportation the economy collapses as people cant get to work or cut their spending just to pay for fuel so they dont put money into much else

 

another way to reduce energy usage is we could ban smartphones. think of the materials and energy that could be saved by going back to a nokia 3310 that had a smaller battery lasted all week and is far less complicated to make with fewer parts so less materials used to make it as well. it still functions as a phone the way an ev functions as a car (i admit this is a big stretch but you get the idea)

 

there are also things that could be done like forcing all new builds to have solar panels (though without subsidies it now takes an absurd amount of money for solar panels to pay themselves off) even simple things like painting roofs light colours would reflect heat/light back into the atmosphere rather than warming things up. We cant even get people to turn off appliance they arnt using which takes all but zero effort getting people to accept evs as they are just isnt going to happen without massive incentives. as others have said start with busses / trucks electrify the rest of the rail network, stop building massive glass buildings that need ac because they are just a huge greenhouse (or at least fit shutters or something)

[mavhc]

Start with everything, yesterday.

 

I've no idea what your phone/car thing was about though.

 

All new houses to have solar panels, 100s of new nuclear power stations, tax everything the amount it costs to clean it up. Loans for everyone to get EV cars (for the up front price difference), solar panels, etc, pay back as you save money, so 0 cost to you. Any non EV car sold from now is a failure of government.

[elsiegee40]

 

This thread has gone so far off topic that it’s battery needs a lengthy recharge.

 

Further posts not on the topic of electric vehicles, as per the title, will be removed.

 

 

[Andrew_C]

and without affordable transportation ...

there are also things that could be done like forcing all new builds to have solar panels

EVs will become affordable, especially favourable when all houses have solar panels.

 

Will this happen before we all have to take jobs within a walk/tram ride of home? That was what life was like just over a hundred years ago, maybe we should be encouraging a reverse of the migration out of the cities that the car enabled.

 

 

ETA - I think that's on-topic for EVs....

[supportman]

4 pages ago I posted a question about the Tesla model 3 we are thinking of buying, everyone seemed to ignore that and went off on a tangent

 

My girlfriend is currently looking at trading in her Range Rover Evoke for a model 3.

We are looking at the standard range plus in white with the 19 inch wheel upgrade.

She can sell the evoke for about 20k, so that leaves 22k to pay on the Model 3.

Looking at what options are best from leasing, hire purchase or buying it outright with cash.

Has anyone else bought one yet?

Edited May 23, 2019 by supportman

[sted]

EVs will become affordable, especially favourable when all houses have solar panels.

 

Will this happen before we all have to take jobs within a walk/tram ride of home? That was what life was like just over a hundred years ago, maybe we should be encouraging a reverse of the migration out of the cities that the car enabled.

 

 

ETA - I think that's on-topic for EVs....

 

the key word there is WILL not are. Im not saying evs wont become the norm in 5/10/20 years but right now they are not a solution (or not a good solution) for everyone like some people seem to think. You also cant just go back to working within walking/cycling distance of home there isnt the infrastructure for that to work nowhere near the housing stock in the right places for a start. "That was what life was like just over a hundred years ago" is a bad argument for anything there is no comparison with times that far removed people will not go back to that under basically any circumstances (he point i was making about phones above is people will not go back to a simpler but less good system if the alternative exists). People migrated to citys as thats where the jobs are there is no point in reversing that there is nothing to do in the countryside that will keep a roof over their heads the jobs they used to do have been eliminated for better or worse by machinery

[mavhc]

True, wouldn't go back to a dinosaur car, they are terrible.

 

If you have 2 cars one should be an EV. So that's 5 million to start with.

[Andrew_C]

the key word there is WILL not are.

 

People migrated to citys as thats where the jobs are there is no point in reversing that there is nothing to do in the countryside that will keep a roof over their heads the jobs they used to do have been eliminated for better or worse by machinery

You miss my point; many people have LEFT THE CITIES to live in the countryside and work in the city. Unless we can all get an Tesla* to commute in, maybe we should be moving BACK to the cities.

 

 

* SEE? On topic!

[Davit2005]

the key word there is WILL not are. Im not saying evs wont become the norm in 5/10/20 years but right now they are not a solution (or not a good solution) for everyone like some people seem to think. You also cant just go back to working within walking/cycling distance of home there isnt the infrastructure for that to work nowhere near the housing stock in the right places for a start. "That was what life was like just over a hundred years ago" is a bad argument for anything there is no comparison with times that far removed people will not go back to that under basically any circumstances (he point i was making about phones above is people will not go back to a simpler but less good system if the alternative exists). People migrated to citys as thats where the jobs are there is no point in reversing that there is nothing to do in the countryside that will keep a roof over their heads the jobs they used to do have been eliminated for better or worse by machinery

 

I done the train to work for 3-4 years, 2 hours each way if I was lucky. So a choice of EV that I could pratically charge or train would be no question it would have to be EV. For now I have to be a dinosuar because the life in trains is unbearable.

 

I have done every method of travel to work i.e. walk, cycle, run, public transport, motorbike and car. I've had years without cars when I did not need them for commuting and only hired for holidays but not everyone can do that.

[crc-ict]

I've no idea what your phone/car thing was about though.

 

I think his point was that much as a Nokia 3310 is still a phone, just less functional than say an iPhone, an electric car is still a car, just less useful (in certain use cases) than a conventional car.

 

Don't misunderstand me, I'm not ultimately against electric cars, but I know they will become much better in time, and that what is available now is a poor substitute for conventional motors - people accept the compromises because they are new and 'green', but no-one would accept the same compromises if they were there in a new model of diesel or petrol car.

 

And think how many of those are going to end up on the scrap heap once those better ones come along, much like the 3310's of old.

Edited May 23, 2019 by crc-ict

[mavhc]

I think his point was that much as a Nokia 3310 is still a phone, just less functional than say an iPhone, an electric car is still a car, just less useful (in certain use cases) than a conventional car.

 

Don't misunderstand me, I'm not ultimately against electric cars, but I know they will become much better in time, and that what is available now is a poor substitute for conventional motors - people accept the compromises because they are new and 'green', but no-one would accept the same compromises if they were there in a new model of diesel or petrol car.

 

And think how many of those are going to end up on the scrap heap once those better ones come along, much like the 3310's of old.

 

But electric cars are the smartphones, the batteries don't last long enough, they're more expensive, but they're much faster, cooler, and less horrifying, so we deal with it, and save money over time. If you want a car that lasts forever, leave it in a museum. Plus they're usually over specced tech wise for the price. £6.5k gets you a car with a sim card for remote heating/cooling/charging/rss etc, £45k gets you a car that can drive itself half the time today, and 5% more of the time each month or 2.

 

I can email my car and it'll read out the email, which is silly, but fun. It emails me when it's finished charging.

 

Do you want a £20 nokia, or a £600 smartphone? nokia battery lasts all week, but turns out there's electricity everywhere, so unless you're camping up a mountain, doesn't matter

[bald_pig]

But electric cars are the smartphones, the batteries don't last long enough, they're more expensive, but they're much faster, cooler, and less horrifying, so we deal with it, and save money over time. If you want a car that lasts forever, leave it in a museum. Plus they're usually over specced tech wise for the price. £6.5k gets you a car with a sim card for remote heating/cooling/charging/rss etc, £45k gets you a car that can drive itself half the time today, and 5% more of the time each month or 2.

 

I can email my car and it'll read out the email, which is silly, but fun. It emails me when it's finished charging.

 

Do you want a £20 nokia, or a £600 smartphone? nokia battery lasts all week, but turns out there's electricity everywhere, so unless you're camping up a mountain, doesn't matter

 

Great analogy. Early smartphones were also too expensive and too buggy for most people, and people waited for them to come down in price and get more refined before buying. Just like the cars.

 

Once they're easily affordable and more developed, then sure, they'll be commonplace.

[mavhc]

There were electric cars in the early days of cars, much easier to start, didn't require a starter handle, so women preferred them. Then past us stole their future to pay for their present so they could drive a bit further and pollute more. 100 years later we noticed the heist had happened.

 

Main problem with new non Tesla/Leaf EVs is actually buying them, very limited supply, they sell out straight away. Got to invest in batteries.