scgf Posted November 25, 2015 Posted November 25, 2015 We are looking long term at moving to a full Mac network and would appreciate any comments on this - any schools running such a network?
Paid_Peanuts Posted November 25, 2015 Posted November 25, 2015 If you don't mind me asking, what's the reason your wanting to move to an entire Mac network?
scgf Posted November 25, 2015 Author Posted November 25, 2015 Our network manager and technician feel it would be far less troublesome and easier to manage than the Windows network we currently have. He feels that Mac OS X is far superior to Windows.
Shadow_Walker Posted November 25, 2015 Posted November 25, 2015 (edited) We are not quite full mac network still have some windows pcs in the school. However they are possibly the best thing we invested in. Once you get the infrastructure right the ease of use and simplicity of the mac OS makes our job in the IT support a breeze. Edited November 25, 2015 by Shadow_Walker 1
Paid_Peanuts Posted November 25, 2015 Posted November 25, 2015 (edited) Our network manager and technician feel it would be far less troublesome and easier to manage than the Windows network we currently have. He feels that Mac OS X is far superior to Windows. Sounds like your not managing your windows network effectively then! Supporting a windows network configured correctly shouldn't be any more difficult than a mac network. Edited November 25, 2015 by Paid_Peanuts 1
Norphy Posted November 25, 2015 Posted November 25, 2015 Our network manager and technician feel it would be far less troublesome and easier to manage than the Windows network we currently have. He feels that Mac OS X is far superior to Windows. OS X's superiority to Windows in the home space is debatable but people prefer them to Windows PCs. I count myself among those people. HOWEVER Managing them professionally is a huge pain in the proverbial. They clearly aren't designed to be managed and Apple seem to be doing their best to abandon the Enterprise market in general. OS X server is a joke for anything more than a few computers. The management tools just just aren't as good as the equivalents for Windows. Open Directory is nowhere near on the same level as AD. The App Store also adds a whole level of complication. The hardware in general is just as prone to failure as any other computer out there and while the support is brilliant for home users, taking multiple Macs to the local Genius Bar or sending them back to Apple when they fail is a pain. In addition, apart from the Mac Pro, they can't be user serviced as they're glued together and have almost everything soldered to the main logic board. I'm not even going to attempt to address the huge disparity in price either. By all means, have some Macs on your network. Having a mixed environment is good for everyone. However I think it'd be foolish to go entirely Apple 1
Shadow_Walker Posted November 25, 2015 Posted November 25, 2015 OS X's superiority to Windows in the home space is debatable but people prefer them to Windows PCs. I count myself among those people. HOWEVER Managing them professionally is a huge pain in the proverbial. They clearly aren't designed to be managed and Apple seem to be doing their best to abandon the Enterprise market in general. OS X server is a joke for anything more than a few computers. The management tools just just aren't as good as the equivalents for Windows. Open Directory is nowhere near on the same level as AD. The App Store also adds a whole level of complication. The hardware in general is just as prone to failure as any other computer out there and while the support is brilliant for home users, taking multiple Macs to the local Genius Bar or sending them back to Apple when they fail is a pain. In addition, apart from the Mac Pro, they can't be user serviced as they're glued together and have almost everything soldered to the main logic board. I'm not even going to attempt to address the huge disparity in price either. By all means, have some Macs on your network. Having a mixed environment is good for everyone. However I think it'd be foolish to go entirely Apple Just out of curiosity how did you manage your macs?
Norphy Posted November 25, 2015 Posted November 25, 2015 I used a plugin for SCCM written by Parallels. It's still being used so far as I know but I'm not working there any more. It's a good product and it takes away a lot of the pain of managing the things but proportionality speaking, the Macs still took up more of my time than the Windows PCs did. Windows is designed from the ground up to be centrally managed. Frankly, Macs aren't. The OP's original post appears to be implying that his network team thinks that switching to Macs will eliminate their problems. It won't. At best, it'll just bring them a whole new range of problems instead. Especially if you have no experience managing them.
Shadow_Walker Posted November 25, 2015 Posted November 25, 2015 I used a plugin for SCCM written by Parallels. It's still being used so far as I know but I'm not working there any more. It's a good product and it takes away a lot of the pain of managing the things but proportionality speaking, the Macs still took up more of my time than the Windows PCs did. Windows is designed from the ground up to be centrally managed. Frankly, Macs aren't. The OP's original post appears to be implying that his network team thinks that switching to Macs will eliminate their problems. It won't. At best, it'll just bring them a whole new range of problems instead. Especially if you have no experience managing them. At the end of the day we invested in infrastructure for our macs and have not really had many issues since. We got mac specialists in and looked at a variety of products. Like i said they work like a dream and are easy to manage now. When they are not set up correctly they are a pain.
free780 Posted November 25, 2015 Posted November 25, 2015 You'll also get that one piece of software that needs windows. 1
Shadow_Walker Posted November 25, 2015 Posted November 25, 2015 We are looking long term at moving to a full Mac network and would appreciate any comments on this - any schools running such a network? Do you have any Macs in the school at the moment?
Guest WMITTech Posted November 25, 2015 Posted November 25, 2015 I have worked in a full Mac network school and unless it's setup correctly, please don't. It's honestly not worth the headache
Jamo Posted November 25, 2015 Posted November 25, 2015 My worst experience with Macs on a network in general was the server OS. It was truly, truly awful. The Apple remote desktop is (well was at least 2.5 yrs ago) terrible, the stability of the server OS is questionable (we had it lock solid and on numerous occasions had errors such as the keyboard stopping working, or unable to log on at all). Also the server literally has all kinds of Apple software which have no place on a server (iTunes for one!?!?!) also enormous updates, on par with Windows there I think! Not going to preach Windows reliability, especially recently, the new releases IMHO have been poor (mainly the interfaces are just becoming cumbersome, server manager/mangler is now just so clunky and slow) but Windows is just so much more solid in the enterprise arena. Macs just don't even come close, and quite honestly I don't believe Apple really cares!
Michael Posted November 25, 2015 Posted November 25, 2015 I guess statistically there are more Windows Domains out there than Mac, but I guess it all depends on the school's needs and more importantly the people managing it. For Windows applications, you do of course have the option of Bootcamp, or I guess you could setup a VM of some kind and use Remote Desktop. You could also argue you can get Office 2016 for Mac, which is very comparable with the Windows version and you can also get Chrome, which is popular amongst Windows users over IE. On the surface it looks like it could work, but I have to agree that nothing compares to Active Directory or indeed Group Policy for that matter. I guess you have to decide whether you need to lock users down to the same level?
synaesthesia Posted November 26, 2015 Posted November 26, 2015 Unless you're a performing arts type establishment or privately funded school, please refrain from piddling away public money in such a way! 4
Blue_Cookeh Posted November 26, 2015 Posted November 26, 2015 As others have said, management simply doesn't seem to be there anymore. We have a few Macs but they're a pain in the ass to manage since it's not worth investing in something like Parallels or Centrify, and the first party support from Apple simply isn't there anymore. Things like SMB are STILL broken. We're ditching them as time goes on... but I still love my rMBP at home 1
Shadow_Walker Posted November 26, 2015 Posted November 26, 2015 As others have said, management simply doesn't seem to be there anymore. We have a few Macs but they're a pain in the ass to manage since it's not worth investing in something like Parallels or Centrify, and the first party support from Apple simply isn't there anymore. Things like SMB are STILL broken. We're ditching them as time goes on... but I still love my rMBP at home How are you managing the macs you have got? 1
Arreks Posted November 26, 2015 Posted November 26, 2015 We have both Mac and Windows networks, they don't interact. Every member of my team agrees how much of a pain it is to manage the 60 Macs we have compared to the 500 odd Windows computers we have. It's probably up to personal preference, but I certainly think you shouldn't limit yourself to only OSX. 1
scgf Posted November 26, 2015 Author Posted November 26, 2015 Unless you're a performing arts type establishment or privately funded school, please refrain from piddling away public money in such a way! As the original poster I completely agree! Currently they are using Casper Suite to run 25 iMacs and they feel this is robust enough to run a full network of 300+ machines. Unfortunately (lol) I'm taking early retirement at Christmas from my job as ICT Coordinator so my influence is currently minimal. I need to let go! It's the usual case where an individual likes Macs in their personal life and feels driven to converting over an entire enterprise.
Shadow_Walker Posted November 26, 2015 Posted November 26, 2015 As the original poster I completely agree! Currently they are using Casper Suite to run 25 iMacs and they feel this is robust enough to run a full network of 300+ machines. Unfortunately (lol) I'm taking early retirement at Christmas from my job as ICT Coordinator so my influence is currently minimal. I need to let go! It's the usual case where an individual likes Macs in their personal life and feels driven to converting over an entire enterprise. We use Casper suite for all our macs and it is brilliant. Can't beat the software. 1
synaesthesia Posted November 26, 2015 Posted November 26, 2015 Blimey, those people need sacking then - wasting money on personal preference would not be seen lightly. Maybe you should tip off the EFA as a leaving present? 1
Edu-IT Posted November 26, 2015 Posted November 26, 2015 It's the usual case where an individual likes Macs in their personal life and feels driven to converting over an entire enterprise. Look at the impact Apple has had on peoples lives though. It's difficult not to be in awe of the company. 1
Quackers Posted November 26, 2015 Posted November 26, 2015 We have been 100% Mac clients side for 2 years. I did run 100% Windows for my first 11 years here. I can tell you the Mac setup is my preference now. Whilst they might cost more initially, they cost less to run over time and have more residual value. Our old IT Suite PC's were running at 110W each average, our iMacs run at 33W. So 77w per machine per hour less in electricity. Which when you multiply that by 90 machines is 7kW or £0.70p an hour. (bursar says without VAT we pay roughly 10p a kWh We also because they are so low watt don't run the 3 Aircon units we have as the rooms no longer get hot enough. They ran at around 3.5Kw each, so thats 11.5kw saved an hour or £1.10. So now we are up to £1.80 an hour less to run the Mac's or £12.60ish a day. £63 a week, £2331 a year (37 weeks), or of the 5 year span we want for them close to £12,000 less in electricity compared to running the old computers. Also after 5 years we could sell them and get hundreds per iMac back. Today a 5 year old used 21.5" iMac goes for between £300 & £400, our old IT Suite machines after were worth sweet FA. Vandalism to the IT Suite in 2 years has been ZERO. So we have not wasted man hours sorting that out, the kids really look after the Mac's. With the iMacs being so slim its has free'd up lots of desk space so the IT Suite rooms when not timetabled can be used very easy for an non IT lesson without they computers being in the way. OS X has been also less troublesome for us. Was it trouble free at the beginning? Nope, as i had come from over a decade of managing Windows so had a steep learning curve. I love the fact that in the last 2 years we have had zero malware/virus instances. Then in the class room each teacher having a Macbook (and iPad) Airplaying to the projector has given them the freedom to move around the room and rearrange the room how the teacher wants, not where IT has put the network sockets. This has meant some teachers moving their desk to the back of the room so the kids cannot see the teachers face when working so they don't know where the teacher is looking improving classroom behaviour, also declutters the teachers desk from big bulky desktops, and of course the power savings again. The battery life of the MacBooks is all the working day, they are light weight, half decent screen res compared to the previous junk, and even the staff who could never use trackpads before and had to have a traditional mouse have no issue using the trackpads on the Macs. Staff also update the Mac OS X them selves, install software them selves from the App Store so a lot more self managed which is good for us. Almost all staff have bought cases/protective covers for the Macs using their own money!! NEVER before have they done this, so they are respecting and appreciate the equipment a lot more. We recently had a Macbook Air stolen at an open evening, but within 45 minutes we had another one in the staff members hands with all the documents and settings on exactly as it was at 5:00pm the evening it was nicked, even had the programs they had open reopen when they logged in, Time Machine is just great, try doing that on Windows! Students in KS4 (our Year 9,10 & 11) have 1:1 iPads. The Apple world is VERY different to the Microsoft world. Facebook have over £13,000 Mac's deployed, Google 42,000 Mac's deployed and IBM is now moving over 2000 employees a week to the Mac as in now up to 30,000 of them hoping to be close to 200,000 deployed over 3 years. So some of the biggest names in the Tech industry have now moved away from Windows. I could have listed loads more things moving to the Apple eco system has opened up, but its more to point out there is more to it than this PC costs £X and this Mac costs £X. 3
john Posted November 26, 2015 Posted November 26, 2015 One thing is surely software compatibility so much EduSoftware isn't Mac ready, as more moves to the cloud that becomes less of an issue but certainly should be a consideration as if you having to use Paralells or Boot camp your adding more cost / complexity to the mix. 1
scgf Posted November 26, 2015 Author Posted November 26, 2015 (edited) Do you have any Macs in the school at the moment? Yes, about 25. They have been a PITA, but the techies will not accept the problems and always blame the fact we have Windows servers and say AD is the problem. I see that a lot - Apple users are happy to dismiss all sorts of problems with iPhones, Macs and iPads that they would bitch and moan about were they any other brand of devices. It's almost comical. Now we have Casper Suite they reckon all our problems are gone . . . . Personally I have found OS X is not as robust as Windows. At home I have a Mac and a PC and the Mac will lose connection to network devices like my NAS and these need to be manually re-mounted. I have tried various scripts to check for a connection and remount if one is not found, but Apple seems to change things at a whim stopping the scripts from working. If Windows loses a connection (say because or a firmware update on the remote drive) it will re-connect automatically. IMO it's about the brand and some people think they are somehow superior by buying into the brand - Apple is very good about cultivating the perception that its products are better with no justification in reality. Anything OS X or iOS doesn't do is countered with 'I don't need that anyway' or 'who needs more than 720p on a phone?' or 'an SSD is so fast anyway you really don't need the extra optimisations Windows offers' and so on. You can never win an argument with an Apple fanboy (well you do win, but they never accept it!). Edited November 26, 2015 by scgf
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