jinnantonnixx Posted March 28, 2014 Posted March 28, 2014 This isn't an argument... yes it is. (Monty Python fans are smiling) 3
witch Posted March 28, 2014 Posted March 28, 2014 he comment was made that taking a day off unpaid wasn't an option. If you can't get childcare, and you can't afford to take a day off to look after your child, how does that mean you can afford to take care of your children? . I meant that many companies will not allow a day off unpaid, not that people couldnt afford to do it.
localzuk Posted March 28, 2014 Posted March 28, 2014 I meant that many companies will not allow a day off unpaid, not that people couldnt afford to do it. That's not what the law says. Between https://www.gov.uk/time-off-for-dependants/your-rights and https://www.gov.uk/parental-leave/entitlement you should be covered. Plus this - http://www.thrings.com/site/news_events/thrings_news/teachers_strikes_jun11.html
witch Posted March 28, 2014 Posted March 28, 2014 That's not what the law says. Between https://www.gov.uk/time-off-for-dependants/your-rights and https://www.gov.uk/parental-leave/entitlement you should be covered. Plus this - Taking time off work due to the teachers' strikes "You must take parental leave as whole weeks (eg 1 week or 2 weeks) rather than individual days, unless your employer agrees otherwise" (they don't) "You can’t have time off if you knew about a situation beforehand" That rules out a strike then... "Parental leave is unpaid. The child must be under 5 (or 18 in special circumstances)." Which appears to be adoption or disability.
localzuk Posted March 28, 2014 Posted March 28, 2014 Thing with a strike is, you don't have notice the school is closing beforehand - most schools only announce the closure on the day. If you do know the place is closing in the future, then you should therefore have enough time to arrange child-care...
witch Posted March 28, 2014 Posted March 28, 2014 Thing with a strike is, you don't have notice the school is closing beforehand - most schools only announce the closure on the day. If you do know the place is closing in the future, then you should therefore have enough time to arrange child-care... Nope 2 days notice here. Childminders are like hens teeth. There is no "should therefore have enough time" Many childminders won't take children over 8 or 9 during the day. Seriously, it is a huge issue and unless you have been involved with it you can't really know how difficult it is to sort out.
localzuk Posted March 28, 2014 Posted March 28, 2014 Nope 2 days notice here. Childminders are like hens teeth. There is no "should therefore have enough time" Many childminders won't take children over 8 or 9 during the day. Seriously, it is a huge issue and unless you have been involved with it you can't really know how difficult it is to sort out. Ok, in that case, when you've had notice and you have difficulty finding childcare I can see there being an issue. However, I do have trouble thinking a business would be that arsey about a day off to look after your child due to a strike. As the latter article I posted stated, tribunals would take a flexible approach to the concept of what "emergency" would be.
Ephelyon Posted March 28, 2014 Posted March 28, 2014 The well-known fact that many, many businesses do get arsey about it is one of the reasons for the strike in the first place; that's why it's so disruptive. If childcare (both arrangements and costs) or time off work as an alternative didn't have the impact across the country that they do, then all it would involve is one day's missed learning, which would have only as much impact as kids being ill for a day. It's intentionally done this way, as are many strikes.
Neil-Millgate Posted March 28, 2014 Posted March 28, 2014 The well-known fact that many, many businesses do get arsey about it is one of the reasons for the strike in the first place; that's why it's so disruptive. If childcare (both arrangements and costs) or time off work as an alternative didn't have the impact across the country that they do, then all it would involve is one day's missed learning, which would have only as much impact as kids being ill for a day. It's intentionally done this way, as are many strikes. The only trouble is, instead of getting directing the anger/annoyance towards the government to try and get things resolved, most people will moan at those on strike. All this does is help the government to sit on its hands smirking at the little people bickering with each other. So nothing does get resolved, so there are more strikes, so more division amongst those who work for a living, so these in government can continue to do sod all.
Sdrawkcab Posted March 28, 2014 Posted March 28, 2014 The only trouble is, instead of getting directing the anger/annoyance towards the government to try and get things resolved, most people will moan at those on strike. All this does is help the government to sit on its hands smirking at the little people bickering with each other. So nothing does get resolved, so there are more strikes, so more division amongst those who work for a living, so these in government can continue to do sod all. Does that mean we should stop striking though? Or ban strike action altogether? Strikes are supposed to inconvenience people. If they didn't, they'd be completely and utterly pointless.
featured_spectre Posted March 28, 2014 Posted March 28, 2014 But then those that should strike (emergency services and armed forces) can't because it's illegal and they have worse working conditions than teachers, worse pay than teachers and constantly put their life on the line. Why not put teachers on permanent 24 hour call out, in life threatening situations and then make strikes illegal...see how they'd change their attitudes about work and pay then!
Neil-Millgate Posted March 28, 2014 Posted March 28, 2014 Does that mean we should stop striking though? Or ban strike action altogether? Strikes are supposed to inconvenience people. If they didn't, they'd be completely and utterly pointless. Not at all. What we should do is get behind the people that are striking, become one voice of discontent rather than several lots of disjointed arguing groups.
X-13 Posted March 28, 2014 Posted March 28, 2014 in life threatening situations Have you not seen kids these days?! Or are we talking "Helpdesk reserves the right to set you on fire if we think your request is stupid"? :p Not at all. What we should do is get behind the people that are striking, become one voice of discontent rather than several lots of disjointed arguing groups. rabble rabble rabble rabble
pcstru Posted March 28, 2014 Posted March 28, 2014 But then those that should strike (emergency services and armed forces) can't because it's illegal and they have worse working conditions than teachers, worse pay than teachers and constantly put their life on the line. They accepted those conditions of employment when they signed up, didn't they? Why not put teachers on permanent 24 hour call out, in life threatening situations and then make strikes illegal...see how they'd change their attitudes about work and pay then! Why not address the issues raised by the teachers instead of just finding examples of people they are in your opinion better off than? "I mean look at dead people, they can't strike can they? Teachers should think themselves lucky to be alive, not striking. When dead people have rights, so can teachers - that's what I say." 1
Gibbo Posted March 28, 2014 Posted March 28, 2014 Not at all. What we should do is get behind the people that are striking, become one voice of discontent rather than several lots of disjointed arguing groups. What was the turnout? Last time it was just 40%. If 100% of union members can't rouse themselves, why should we?
featured_spectre Posted March 28, 2014 Posted March 28, 2014 They accepted those conditions of employment when they signed up, didn't they? In terms of life threatening yes, they accepted that, but until 2 years ago they were allowed to strike...the government made it illegal for them to do so, so for many hundreds of thousands...no, they didn't accept those conditions. Why not address the issues raised by the teachers instead of just finding examples of people they are in your opinion better off than? "I mean look at dead people, they can't strike can they? Teachers should think themselves lucky to be alive, not striking. When dead people have rights, so can teachers - that's what I say." Again no...you are twisting it. Teachers have it easy compared to many millions who don't have jobs or are working 2 or 3 to make ends meet. (at one point I worked 2 full time jobs as did the Mrs to make ends meet). Also many teachers do not know anything but the education system...they go to school, college, uni, back to teaching in schools. They NEED to have real world experience of a proper 9-5 job be it elsewhere in the civil service or whatever and then go into teaching. I've found those that switched from a normal job to teaching were much likely to not strike and have said that teaching was a walk in the park compared to their other jobs.
pcstru Posted March 28, 2014 Posted March 28, 2014 The last firefighters strike was Oct 2013, that's not 2 years ago. Their union is fully in support of teachers strike action. The "Teachers have it easy compared to" is meaningless in relation to their point about pensions. I'm sure you can find many people who are worse off than Teachers, but this isn't a race to the bottom. @sparkeh made exactly that point on page 3 of this thread : "What I find really sad is when a group of people look at another group and say 'Well they have it better than us so they should put up with it' when we should be saying 'They have it better than us so we should strive to improve our own conditions'. But no, the majority sit on the sidelines and snipe. This is exactly what the Government want, us to turn on each other while they drive through their own agenda of swinging cuts and changes with no one group with enough support to stand up to them." Wise words IMO. 3
Ephelyon Posted March 28, 2014 Posted March 28, 2014 True. We often have to bite our tongues too, when the teachers strike over terms and conditions that are still better than many of ours. But we have to keep our perspective and remind ourselves that everything is, in fact, relative.
StevieM Posted March 28, 2014 Posted March 28, 2014 Firefighters send message of solidarity to striking teachers | Fire Brigades UnionFire Brigades Union
Sdrawkcab Posted March 28, 2014 Posted March 28, 2014 "What I find really sad is when a group of people look at another group and say 'Well they have it better than us so they should put up with it' when we should be saying 'They have it better than us so we should strive to improve our own conditions'. But no, the majority sit on the sidelines and snipe. This is exactly what the Government want, us to turn on each other while they drive through their own agenda of swinging cuts and changes with no one group with enough support to stand up to them." This is probably the best quote in the thread so far. I don't understand why people have such a problem with teachers striking because there are other jobs which are "worse". If you work one of these supposedly "worse" jobs, maybe try putting in effort to improve your own working conditions instead of kicking up a fuss about those who are putting the effort in. I do agree that if you're on strike you should be visibly on strike (like in a picket line or at a demonstration) rather than using it as an extra day off though. Edit: True. We often have to bite our tongues too, when the teachers strike over terms and conditions that are still better than many of ours. But we have to keep our perspective and remind ourselves that everything is, in fact, relative. Or how about this: If your working conditions aren't what you want them to be, work to change them. 1
Ephelyon Posted March 28, 2014 Posted March 28, 2014 (edited) Oh, absolutely, but... ever tried "mobilising" EduGeek? I do what I can in other ways though. Edited March 28, 2014 by Ephelyon
witch Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 Oh, absolutely, but... ever tried "mobilising" EduGeek? I do what I can in other ways though. Tar us not with the same brush, oh @Ephelyon
Roberto Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 Why not address the issues raised by the teachers instead of just finding examples of people they are in your opinion better off than? "I mean look at dead people, they can't strike can they? Teachers should think themselves lucky to be alive, not striking. When dead people have rights, so can teachers - that's what I say." Absolutely this. I actually disagree with their strike in this case... but I support the right of any union/worker to strike.
featured_spectre Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 This is probably the best quote in the thread so far. I don't understand why people have such a problem with teachers striking because there are other jobs which are "worse". If you work one of these supposedly "worse" jobs, maybe try putting in effort to improve your own working conditions instead of kicking up a fuss about those who are putting the effort in. I do agree that if you're on strike you should be visibly on strike (like in a picket line or at a demonstration) rather than using it as an extra day off though. Edit: Or how about this: If your working conditions aren't what you want them to be, work to change them. Whilst I agree with your statement, in the UK education system, if you are not a member of the teaching staff, you will find very little help to change your working conditions. A union can only do so much for 1 person, you'd need to have thousands (if not tens or hundreds of thousands) willing to stand up and strike and assist with the change, and frankly, too many are timid, bullied or dont want to rock the boat for fear of losing their jobs. We are easily replaced in the education system unfortunately
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