[POLL] Should Scotland be an independent country?

[localzuk]

Really?? I am sure you have access to Google.

 

Law - Law of the United Kingdom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

I honestly do not have time to trawl trough the EU website to find treaty details but the 'UK' and 'Great Britain & Northern Ireland' are treated as different. Great Britain is not in the EU, The UK is.

 

Scotland does not have any international treaties. There are no instruments of "Great Britain" (its just a land mass consisting of part of the UK, therefore by the transitive properties of international treaties, it is part of the EU).

 

Your argument is entirely based in semantics.

[featured_spectre]

You do know that great britain is literally the island we are on. Sulley island, Anglesey or even St Marys Island in London is classified as great britain as there is no land connecting them to the island.

[midweek]

And the "British Isles" includes Eire! We live in such a confusing part of the world.

[Gatt]

And they're off - RBS just confirmed it will move its HQ to London in the event of a Yes vote, with Lloyds Banking Group likely to follow it!

 

BBC News - RBS confirms London move if Scotland votes Yes

[pcstru]

And they're off - RBS just confirmed it will move its HQ to London in the event of a Yes vote, with Lloyds Banking Group likely to follow it!

BBC News - RBS confirms London move if Scotland votes Yes

Imagine the terror of the Scots having to face the prospect of not bailing out greedy bankers should they choose independence.

[sparkeh]

Imagine the terror of the Scots having to face the prospect of not bailing out greedy bankers should they choose independence.

Putting the flippant comment aside, Scotland faces a real problem of businesses relocating to rUK in the event of a yes vote. Something else Alex Salmond waves away as not a problem.

[localzuk]

Putting the flippant comment aside, Scotland faces a real problem of businesses relocating to rUK in the event of a yes vote. Something else Alex Salmond waves away as not a problem.

 

Indeed. Business related taxes are a huge percentage of any country's tax income. If they don't have any local HQ etc... then their taxation is severely reduced. Scotland needs businesses to stay in the country if they become independent.

 

They do have a way around this though - offer a better taxation regime than the rUK, but even then things aren't guarenteed. Ireland has a low rate of business taxes, but they still got hit hard during the economic crisis.

[bobt]

unless Alex Salmond is going to dig a rather large trench along the border

 

Wouldn't put it past him...

[pcstru]

Putting the flippant comment aside, Scotland faces a real problem of businesses relocating to rUK in the event of a yes vote. Something else Alex Salmond waves away as not a problem.

I'm not really clear that such moves are a problem for an independent Scotland. Why do you think it would be?

 

You need to look at what they mean by relocation. For the banks their lender of last resort is the Bank of England, potentially they will find it more expensive to borrow money in an independent Scotland. I say potentially because what actually happens depends on how Scotland would manage it's economy. RBS on the other hand is not as far as I can see, proposing to move 11,000 jobs out of Scotland.

 

And my flippant comment is not that flippant. The banking crisis is still being felt 7 years after the massive bailout fuelled by the unregulated greed of bankers. It will still be being felt in 7 years time. And while many here have not seen a pay rise in quite a number of years because of the austerity measures that are a direct result of the bailouts, bankers hardly drew breath before they were wallowing in the swill of undeserved bonuses. I really do question whether playing host to a large banking industry is a good thing.

Edited September 11, 2014 by pcstru

[CAM]

OK, what are you going to do without a banking industry? Are you going to keep your money in John Smith's "secure vault" after meeting him down an alleyway or would you prefer to keep it under the curtains or mattress? And if all those banks move who will businesses borrow money from? Oh and the debts that are currently outstanding? They aren't just cancelled because of relocation, now you owe your car loan, mortgage, etc to a foreign company who do not charge interest rates at the same rate as your local economy. If you thought it was bad now with the recession, wait until UK rates go up whilst Scottish wages fall since you lack a central bank, businesses are bailing out and the economy is going into panic mode.

[pcstru]

Who says that Scotland won't have a banking industry? There will be a market for banking services and it would be rather naive to think that someone won't step up to the plate. Perhaps an Independent Scotland will become the new Switzerland or Jersey? Small countries do seem to manage, some of them do extremely well and aren't trillions in debt because they put greed and profit before rational thought!

[sparkeh]

I'm not really clear that such moves are a problem for an independent Scotland. Why do you think it would be?

 

You need to look at what they mean by relocation. For the banks their lender of last resort is the Bank of England, potentially they will find it more expensive to borrow money in an independent Scotland. I say potentially because what actually happens depends on how Scotland would manage it's economy. RBS on the other hand is not as far as I can see, proposing to move 11,000 jobs out of Scotland.

I think you are looking too narrowly at this.

 

Businesses pulling out of Scotland (or any country) sends a bad message in terms of investment. Why would businesses come and invest in a country where others a leaving.

This is already having an effect on the stock market with Scottish based firms taking a hit (Standard Life, Royal Bank of Scotland, Lloyds, Weir Group being among the biggest fallers on the FTSE recently).

 

In addition to this you are losing tax revenue as businesses will be paying tax to the rUK rather than an independent Scotland so the country will be worse off financially.

[Hefferzzzz]

I think you are looking too narrowly at this.

 

Businesses pulling out of Scotland (or any country) sends a bad message in terms of investment. Why would businesses come and invest in a country where others a leaving.

This is already having an effect on the stock market with Scottish based firms taking a hit (Standard Life, Royal Bank of Scotland, Lloyds, Weir Group being among the biggest fallers on the FTSE recently).

 

In addition to this you are losing tax revenue as businesses will be paying tax to the rUK rather than an independent Scotland so the country will be worse off financially.

 

 

Add in the fact that Scotland will not be in the EU and that brings in a whole host of other issues in terms of regulation and free market. Then there is the currency issue, despite the Yes campaign claiming that they will keep the £ like some countries use the $, international investors will not want to get involveded in that mess which will leave them having to use the formal currency of Scotland which is ???

 

Yet again Salmonds response was to call the reports of RBS and Lloyds moving HQ as 'nonsense' and 'scaremongering'. More burying head in sand and refusing to look at the facts.

The guy is on a different planet.

Edited September 11, 2014 by Hefferzzzz

[localzuk]

He seems more and more like "Comical Ali" aka "Muhammad Saeed al-Sahhaf" as each day passes. "There are no American tanks in Baghdad".

[pcstru]

Why would businesses come and invest in a country where others a leaving.

You make it sound like business are some kind of altruistic service! Businesses 'invest' to turn a profit. Do you think an independent Scotland is going to turn into some kind of economic wasteland, that there will be no opportunities for enterprise? I think, should Scotland say "yes", some business will be lost and some will be gained. "Yes" will mean change, it will not inevitably lead to disaster.

This is already having an effect on the stock market with Scottish based firms taking a hit (Standard Life, Royal Bank of Scotland, Lloyds, Weir Group being among the biggest fallers on the FTSE recently).

And the stock market is a bastion of rationality that we should allow to be our master rather than us be the masters of it? If Scotland becomes less obsessed by business and profit and chooses to put people and politics first, that would be IMO a good thing. But I'm one of a declining number of people who think people, not profit should come first.

[featured_spectre]

You make it sound like business are some kind of altruistic service! Businesses 'invest' to turn a profit. Do you think an independent Scotland is going to turn into some kind of economic wasteland, that there will be no opportunities for enterprise? I think, should Scotland say "yes", some business will be lost and some will be gained. "Yes" will mean change, it will not inevitably lead to disaster.

I could not agree with this more. They may well become a tax haven like Jersey or Ireland, however, it is up to Scotland as to how it sets itself up.

 

And the stock market is a bastion of rationality that we should allow to be our master rather than us be the masters of it? If Scotland becomes less obsessed by business and profit and chooses to put people and politics first, that would be IMO a good thing. But I'm one of a declining number of people who think people, not profit should come first.

Sadly this is true, however, it is better to be in the black than the red. Scotland will likely start quite heavily in the red however due to the shared debt, assets etc accrued since the union.

[Hefferzzzz]

You make it sound like business are some kind of altruistic service! Businesses 'invest' to turn a profit. Do you think an independent Scotland is going to turn into some kind of economic wasteland, that there will be no opportunities for enterprise? I think, should Scotland say "yes", some business will be lost and some will be gained. "Yes" will mean change, it will not inevitably lead to disaster.

 

And the stock market is a bastion of rationality that we should allow to be our master rather than us be the masters of it? If Scotland becomes less obsessed by business and profit and chooses to put people and politics first, that would be IMO a good thing. But I'm one of a declining number of people who think people, not profit should come first.

 

I agree with aprts of that.

[CAM]

Businesses do exist to make money, that is their purpose. A business that doesn't turn a profit in favour of putting people first is called a charity. The only reason a business is nice to you is because they want your money. Cold hard truth.

 

Once you start investing emotion instead of money you will start to lose in the competitive world of big business and especially on the stock markets which do control large portions of business and the economy. A couple of emotion fuelled panic bets and you can wipe out everything.

 

The Yes/No vote will be the biggest stock market bet ever placed. Should someone make that call using emotion and ignore everything else?

[sparkeh]

You make it sound like business are some kind of altruistic service! Businesses 'invest' to turn a profit. Do you think an independent Scotland is going to turn into some kind of economic wasteland, that there will be no opportunities for enterprise? I think, should Scotland say "yes", some business will be lost and some will be gained. "Yes" will mean change, it will not inevitably lead to disaster.

Eh? Where do I make businesses sound altruistic?

If anything surely I am saying the opposite, that if a business is deciding where to locate and it sees other business pulling out of a country it makes it an unattractive prospect. If it sees businesses moving to another country it makes that other country look attractive. Nothing to do with altruism, just business logic.

And the stock market is a bastion of rationality that we should allow to be our master rather than us be the masters of it? If Scotland becomes less obsessed by business and profit and chooses to put people and politics first, that would be IMO a good thing. But I'm one of a declining number of people who think people, not profit should come first.

Agree 100% with you here and I would wave a placard alongside you in a protest, but there is a reality to consider here and that's is that this is the system we have and if Scotland wants to be financially successful then its going to have to be a part of that system. Its all very well taking a swerve to the left but if it bankrupts the Scottish economy then the Scots queuing in the breadline would probably regret their yes vote.

Edited September 11, 2014 by sparkeh

[Dos_Box]

And the stock market is a bastion of rationality that we should allow to be our master rather than us be the masters of it? If Scotland becomes less obsessed by business and profit and chooses to put people and politics first, that would be IMO a good thing. But I'm one of a declining number of people who think people, not profit should come first.

 

You must consider however that with businesses and profit comes jobs and tax revenue. Without either any country is going to do very poorly.

[pcstru]

You must consider however that with businesses and profit comes jobs and tax revenue. Without either any country is going to do very poorly.

I'm not anti business or anti profit but I am against the "profit is good whatever the cost" that is best typified by the politics of the current republican and tea party types across the pond. We are gently sliding more and more in that direction and that is a bad thing and is amply demonstrated by the behaviour of the banks again and again (toxic mortgages, manipulation of LIBOR, fixing gold exchange, selling investments that they themselves are betting against etc etc etc). I'm also against businesses (and individuals) that make substantial profits but pay little or no taxes - hello Apple, Google, Amazon etc etc etc. A business can be healthy, turn a profit and still be socially responsible - a state of affairs that does not seem to happen when profit is put before people.

[Theblacksheep]

Yet again Salmonds response was to call the reports of RBS and Lloyds moving HQ as 'nonsense' and 'scaremongering'.

 

Two companies owned by Westminster doing Westminsters panic mode propaganda. Banks and investment companies will fight to underwrite a new national bank. It is a licence to print money and sell it at 100% face value as debt to the country.

 

As for the EU, the right is taking more power in England (and by default Scotland) and will dictate the direction of the UK away from Europe, regardless of the way Scotland votes. Ironically moving England further away due to its anti-EU surge.

 

Despite having 8% of the population Scotland has 32% of the land, 60% of the Sea, 90% of Hydro Power, 90% gas, 90% oil, 81% unused coal reserves, 40% of forrests and 40% of wind power of the UK.

 

Do it Scotland, it'll be hilarious.

Edited September 11, 2014 by Theblacksheep

[sparkeh]

Breaking news: John Lewis will be more expensive in Scotland in the event of a yes vote!

BBC News - John Lewis warns prices 'likely' to rise on Yes vote

[Vasriel]

When the referendum comes next Thursday, I will most likely be voting No.

 

Being Scottish my heart likes the idea of Scotland being independent, as I do not like Scotland being governed by Westminster.

 

But my head knows though that although Scotland may have many resources that it can use to function independently, there are currently too many problems that the Yes party has not provided solutions for. Most of their arguments are based on "We have paid towards this, we have a right to have this". I feel they just want to get independence and then deal with the problems later.

 

Not that I think that the Better Together party is any better. Whenever I hear their arguments about staying together, the thoughts that pop into my mind are "if we are better together, how come the country is in such a mess" and “scare stories about something you don’t know will happen if Scotland became independent”

[Dos_Box]

When the referendum comes next Thursday, I will most likely be voting No.

 

Being Scottish my heart likes the idea of Scotland being independent, as I do not like Scotland being governed by Westminster.

 

But my head knows though that although Scotland may have many resources that it can use to function independently, there are currently too many problems that the Yes party has not provided solutions for. Most of their arguments are based on "We have paid towards this, we have a right to have this". I feel they just want to get independence and then deal with the problems later.

 

Not that I think that the Better Together party is any better. Whenever I hear their arguments about staying together, the thoughts that pop into my mind are "if we are better together, how come the country is in such a mess" and “scare stories about something you don’t know will happen if Scotland became independent”

 

Have you considered that many of the problems Scotland has are exactly the same as faced by many other parts of the UK?

Yes, govts over the past 30 years have restricted power and influance to the SE and London in particular, leaving many, many areas lacking in resouces and opportunities. Even the last Scottish dominted Labour administration did little or nothing to alleviate this situation.

It's only now that Westminster has finally twigged on (it really took this to do it!!) and there is now talk about the possibility of federalising areas of the UK to run themselves inc. raising\setting taxes etc.

The only problem with this I can is the disparity between regions created by the past 30 years!