FOI Request about my printers....

Little-Miss · February 14, 2014

From another print supplier. Is that even a thing?

Dear Sirs,

I would like to submit a Freedom of Information Request relating to specific Print Contract(s) for:
*Print Devices / Photocopiers / Lease Details / Support / Maintenance Contract)s) – Please can you send me the contract(s) separately and not a combined total value or number of suppliers. If there is more than one supplier for a particular contract please state which of these suppliers the main one is.
For each of the types of Print Contracts can you please send me the following data types:

Contract Title:
1. Existing / Current supplier:
2. Hardware Brand(s):
3. Number of Machines:
4. Total Contract Value: (for the duration of the whole contract, if the total value given is per annum please state this in the response)
5. Duration: (Please can you also include notes if the contract includes any extension periods)
6. Contract Expiry Date:
7. Contract Review Date: (An approximate date of when the organisation is planning to review this particular contract)
8. Internal Contact: (the person from within the organisation that is responsible for reviewing and renewing this particular contract. Please include their full name, job title, direct contact number and direct email address)

If you do not have any contracts and are therefore owned outright then I would be greatful if you could please supply the following information:-

1. Hardware Brand(s):
2. Number of Machines:
3. Approximate Purchase Date:
4. Approximate Annual Spend on Consumables:
5. Internal Contact: : (the person from within the organisation that is responsible for sourcing the machines. Please include their full name, job title, direct contact number and direct email address)

I look forward to receiving your response in accordance with the Freedom of Information Act 2000.

Kind regards

Pfft....most companies just ring and ask....

Don't get me started on the 'Dear Sirs'..

HaleStorm · February 14, 2014

I'm sure most of the requested information, especially about Contract information, surely that is Private and Confidential.

Also you can charge £10 for FOI requests...send them back an invoice.

Nibiru · February 14, 2014

Speak to your FOI officer before you answer. All big organisations have them. They will know whats a reasonable enquiry.

MatthewL · February 14, 2014

Speak to your FOI person at the LA.

LosOjos · February 14, 2014

You certainly don't have to give any personal details (i.e. contact names and telephone numbers etc.), FOI does not overrule DPA.

When can we refuse a request for information? | ICO

Steve21 · February 14, 2014

Can't you just decline the request due to costs? It's not environmental or data protection based, so the amount of man hours it'll take you to fulfill a whole site check will be over the limit (£450 or whatever it is) *cough*

In reality you can do an FOI for anything at all though,

However you can tell them where to go by using the commerical exceptions!

http://www.justice.gov.uk/downloads/information-access-rights/foi/foi-s43-exemptions.pdf

Random examples:

Examples of information the disclosure of which may have a particular potential to damage commercial interests include:

research and plans relating to a potential new product

product manufacturing cost information

product sales forecast information

strategic business plans, including for example, plans to enter, develop or withdraw from a product or geographical market sector

marketing plans, to promote a new or existing product

information relating to the preparation of a competitive bid

information about the financial and business viability of a company

information provided to a public authority in respect of an application for a licence or as a requirement of a licence condition or under a regulatory regime

Steve

sparkeh · February 14, 2014

Hmm I would probably quote the exemption for commercial interests (43.2)

From Freedom of Information Act 2000
43 Commercial interests.

(1) Information is exempt information if it constitutes a trade secret.
(2) Information is exempt information if its disclosure under this Act would, or would be likely to, prejudice the commercial interests of any person (including the public authority holding it).
(3) The duty to confirm or deny does not arise if, or to the extent that, compliance with section 1(1)(a) would, or would be likely to, prejudice the interests mentioned in subsection (2).

I would imagine that giving over the contract details would be covered by this.

Edited February 14, 2014 by sparkeh

X-13 · February 14, 2014

Can't you just decline the request due to costs? It's not environmental or data protection based, so the amount of man hours it'll take you to fulfill a whole site check will be over the limit (£450 or whatever it is) *cough*

In reality you can do an FOI for anything at all though,

However you can tell them where to go by using the commerical exceptions!

http://www.justice.gov.uk/downloads/information-access-rights/foi/foi-s43-exemptions.pdf

Random examples:
Examples of information the disclosure of which may have a particular potential to damage commercial interests include:

research and plans relating to a potential new product

product manufacturing cost information

product sales forecast information

strategic business plans, including for example, plans to enter, develop or withdraw from a product or geographical market sector

marketing plans, to promote a new or existing product

information relating to the preparation of a competitive bid

information about the financial and business viability of a company

information provided to a public authority in respect of an application for a licence or as a requirement of a licence condition or under a regulatory regime
Steve

I was thinking along those lines, too.

It sounds like they're after information that would help them win contracts, which isn't what this law is about.

elsiegee40 · February 14, 2014

Your school is spending public money and must comply with FoI requests unless they are requesting personal data (such as named staff salaries)

You cannot question who is asking for the data or deny the information. You have 30 working days to comply... which means you don't count school holidays or weekends and bank holidays! You can charge a reasonable fee for providing the information, but that's for things like photocopying and not wages. You can also tell the requestor where to find it on the school website if the information requested is already easily available... you don't have to provide it again.

This feels like a fishing trip by a business which is not what FoI is for and, personally, I'd call them and tell them that.

Your Data Controller is responsible for compliance and should know what to and who to consult; I am aware that in most schools this is probably a pipe dream. However, your LA should have someone in the know.

The bottom line is that you must respond.

Little-Miss · February 14, 2014

Yeah, market research using scary words....

Makes me wonder how many people would reply straight away.

I understand it's public money etc and don't argue that. I'm not particulary impressed and will be finding someone to contact first.

Edited February 14, 2014 by Little-Miss

sparkeh · February 14, 2014

You cannot question who is asking for the data or deny the information.

Um, you can deny the information if it falls into any of the (many) exemptions: Freedom of Information Act 2000

featured_spectre · February 14, 2014

I asked a lawyer here what you can legally answer for these, to wind them up a bit. Here is what you can answer for all.

Contract Title:

DPA prevents me from disclosing this

1. Existing / Current supplier:

DPA prevents me from disclosing this

2. Hardware Brand(s):

DPA prevents me from disclosing this

3. Number of Machines:

DPA prevents me from disclosing this

4. Total Contract Value: (for the duration of the whole contract, if the total value given is per annum please state this in the response)

DPA prevents me from disclosing this

5. Duration: (Please can you also include notes if the contract includes any extension periods)

DPA prevents me from disclosing this

6. Contract Expiry Date:

DPA prevents me from disclosing this

7. Contract Review Date: (An approximate date of when the organisation is planning to review this particular contract)

DPA prevents me from disclosing this

8. Internal Contact: (the person from within the organisation that is responsible for reviewing and renewing this particular contract. Please include their full name, job title, direct contact number and direct email address)

DPA prevents me from disclosing this

If you do not have any contracts and are therefore owned outright then I would be greatful if you could please supply the following information:-

1. Hardware Brand(s):

*insert brands here*

2. Number of Machines:

*insert number here*

3. Approximate Purchase Date:

*insert date here*

4. Approximate Annual Spend on Consumables:

*insert value here*

5. Internal Contact: : (the person from within the organisation that is responsible for sourcing the machines. Please include their full name, job title, direct contact number and direct email address)

DPA prevents me from disclosing this

pantscat · February 14, 2014

I think as others have already said, this section will allow you to tell them to Foxtrox Oscar:

Section 43(2) - Commercial interests

Information is exempt it is disclosure would prejudice, or would be likely to prejudice, the commercial interests of your organisation or anyone else.

Speak to your FOI person, then tell them to go and do one.

featured_spectre · February 14, 2014

DPA prevents the use of the contracts (and its specifics therein), named companies, named persons, and other identifiable information with these requests.

Steve21 · February 14, 2014

The bottom line is that you must respond.

You must respond, but it doesn't say you have to give the information.

An organisation can turn down other types of request if they think it will cost them more than £450 (£600 for a central government organisation) to deal with.

which goes back to depending how much of that information is stored/easily accessible it could rack up the man hours.

And if it's breaking those exceptions/exemptions you can still say no? Unless I'm missing something, responding can still be without the information no?

Steve

featured_spectre · February 14, 2014

If it is information which would breach DPA, all you need to say is "DPA prevents me from disclosing this" and that is it. Anything where contracts (or any details within the contract) or identifiable information for people is involved, that is covered.

Anything on numbers of machines, brands and such like which are NOT covered by contracts and such like, can be disclosed. A reasonable cost is anywhere from £10 - £500 depending on how much information is required, how long it took to gather together and such like.

mthomas08 · February 14, 2014

I think some may be missing the point, the print company is simply using it as an excuse to know what you got and if they can sell you something. I have yet to hear a single case where it was rejected and the company took legal action. Course its all possible they will, they are just simply being "jerks" over it all.

Personally I know I will get one sooner or later, I will type up the information, save it as a template, send it to the company and add: I will never do business with you.

As others have said though you are well within your right to charge for that information "Admin costs".

Edit: Can you name and shame the company please. Nothing wrong with doing that you have only copied the email they sent you.

Edited February 14, 2014 by mthomas08

sparkeh · February 14, 2014

I think some may be missing the point, the print company is simply using it as an excuse to know what you got and if they can sell you something.

Yeah pretty sure we all get that. Just helping to formulate a response...

sonofsanta · February 14, 2014

I am certain there is specific wording somewhere regarding companies doing this - requesting information as market research for commercial gain. FoI is meant to be for information in the public interest, not in a specific company's interest. Jiggered if I can track that information down now though...

Garacesh · February 14, 2014

We all can see this is a commercially-based FOI request (and thus, null) but remember @Little-Miss that you do have to respond in some manner or another.

Either give them "I cannot comply to answer this question due to the Data Protection Act, 1998" on everything you can, and only give them the bare-minimum on the ones you can't use it on, or just e-mail back stating you are not willing to answer this FOI request under Section 43: Commercial Interest (but for that you'd need to know it was coming from a company, so if the e-mail address is a person one you're probably better off going with DPA)

DaveCoop · February 14, 2014

I Had the same thing last year and it annoyed me !! I have enough to do already without this, however I checked with my LEA FOI people, who said it is legit and I have to answer so I devised a cunning cat and mouse plan

This was my response (The question was exactly the same as the post):

Mr Ashdown, Please note that the request needs to be completed within 20 School days not the 20 days as stated! This will put our formal response to the 13 May taking into account bank holidays.

The services and communications request will be a chargeable at a rate of £25 Per Hour as the records are held with our current providers, unfortunately this will incur a charge.

Please advise on how you would like me to proceed !

If you could respond as soon as possible, I will start by making contact with our providers.

Thank You

So that was my first response and he replied with this

Hi,

Thank you for your quick response and providing details of cost. I note your clarification of timing.

I appreciate this is quite a large request and understand why you would need to charge a fee.

Would it be possible to provide answers to questions 1-3 please (leaving out the longer question 4 which I appreciate is quite large) without charging me or taking-up too much of your valuable time?

I’d very much appreciate your further assistance in this matter.

Best Regards,

So I then replied

Mr Ashdown, Please could you resubmit your request for the information as your request has now changed. once this request has been resubmitted I can the look at any charges you will incur for this service.

Thank You

however he didn't respond after that, so i saved the e-mails just in case it was a legit question, but as soon as I mentioned the cost funnily enough the information was important anymore

Naughty I know but why should I waste hours so a company can get all of the details about my network and sell them on so I get harassed by sales calls

sonofsanta · February 14, 2014

Right, some relevant points from ICO:

Most relevant here, http://ico.org.uk/for_organisations/freedom_of_information/guide/~/media/documents/library/Freedom_of_Information/Detailed_specialist_guides/COMMERCIALDETRIMENTOF3RDPARTIES.ashx specifically discusses "Commercial detriment of third parties"

Pages 6-7 of http://ico.org.uk/for_organisations/freedom_of_information/guide/~/media/documents/library/Freedom_of_Information/Detailed_specialist_guides/AWARENESS_GUIDANCE_5_V3_07_03_08.ashx discuss commercial interests including competitive markets

http://ico.org.uk/for_organisations/freedom_of_information/guide/~/media/documents/library/Freedom_of_Information/Detailed_specialist_guides/AWARENESS_GUIDANNCE_5_ANNEXE_V3_07_03_08.ashx discusses public sector contracts

From the first PDF linked above: If a public authority believes that by responding to a FOIA request it will prejudice the commercial interests of a third party, then it should when necessary (for example to determine whether or not an exemption applies) and wherever possible consult the third party for its view. The public authority must not speculate as to whether there is any commercial detriment and the reasons why without any evidence or input from the third party.

In essence: ask your existing supplier if they believe this information would be detrimental to their commercial interests. If they say yes, you can refuse the request.

If you buy your stuff from (say) eBuyer or Amazon, just reply stating that you purchase consumables etc. there and that information is publicly available at their website.

localzuk · February 14, 2014

1. Existing / Current supplier:
2. Hardware Brand(s):
3. Number of Machines:
4. Total Contract Value: (for the duration of the whole contract, if the total value given is per annum please state this in the response)
5. Duration: (Please can you also include notes if the contract includes any extension periods)
6. Contract Expiry Date:
7. Contract Review Date: (An approximate date of when the organisation is planning to review this particular contract)
8. Internal Contact: (the person from within the organisation that is responsible for reviewing and renewing this particular contract. Please include their full name, job title, direct contact number and direct email address)

If you do not have any contracts and are therefore owned outright then I would be greatful if you could please supply the following information:-

1. Hardware Brand(s):
2. Number of Machines:
3. Approximate Purchase Date:
4. Approximate Annual Spend on Consumables:
5. Internal Contact: : (the person from within the organisation that is responsible for sourcing the machines. Please include their full name, job title, direct contact number and direct email address)

1. A company name is not a piece of personal data under the DPA. Only information about individuals is covered. However, I'd say that it is potentially commercially sensitive.

2. Fine to reply to.

3. Fine to reply to.

4. Commercially sensitive.

5. Potentially commercially sensitive.

6. Potentially commercially sensitive.

7. Potentially commercially sensitive.

8. Data Protection Act.

Second bit:

1. Fine to reply to.

2. Fine to reply to.

3. Fine to reply to.

4. As this is an aggregate figure, it could be provided. However, I'd figure out how long it'd take to gather the information in hours - if those hours would be above £450 in costs, you can refuse.

5. Data Protection Act.

Yes, the FOI is there to provide transparency to public institutions, and the default response should be to provide information, however this should not break the Data Protection Act and should not damage the interests of the institution by damaging future commercial contracts.

The services and communications request will be a chargeable at a rate of £25 Per Hour as the records are held with our current providers, unfortunately this will incur a charge.

Would it have taken 18 hours to gather the information? If not, then no charge is allowed to be levied.

Mr Ashdown, Please could you resubmit your request for the information as your request has now changed. once this request has been resubmitted I can the look at any charges you will incur for this service.

A FOI request does NOT have to follow a formal procedure - a normal email as sent there asking for the altered info is a request under the act.

So, technically, you broke the FOI there.

Most institutions have a single point of contact for FOI requests. Here, for example, if anyone receives a request it is always forwarded to that person and then they organise it - even if it comes back to us to process. That way, that person actually knows the law and knows how to formulate a correct response.

If you fail to respond, the requester can take it to the ICO and the school can get in trouble for it. Not to mention, it is not your job or right to restrict the information in a publicly funded institution - whether you like it or not.

Edited February 14, 2014 by localzuk

d0pefish · February 14, 2014

Provide info then kindly inform them that due to the underhand tactics they have employed they will never be considered for the opportunity to supply your establishment

Little-Miss · February 14, 2014

Oh, i will reply...with as little infomation as i can get away with.

They're certainly not having my contact information....

It's just the under-handeded way of gaining what looks like marketing information which has peeved me.

FOI Request about my printers....

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