[sims] Sims 8 new version?

[2ilent8cho]

^ So assuming they're writing it to sensibly resize/change UI at different resolutions, where does this leave all the various mobile apps?

 

I'm hoping they would keep the mobile apps, i just find generally apps a better experience than using a web browser on a tablet. Just look at PARS Connect it works in a web browser, but you end up losing screen space to the browser, if you create a link on your home screen to it on an iPad it opens a new tab every time a teacher presses the icon, and if you try to push it out as a Web Clip via an MDM and force full screen mode (best user experience possible from the users point of view for a non app) it just breaks and TASC don't have a fix.

[PhilNeal]

I can confirm that we are not using Silverlight. We have kept Support Units up to date but it is premature to say too much about the next generation of our software more widely.

 

We'll have some very exciting stuff to show off in 2017!

 

PS the apps will work with the next gen.

[vikpaw]

The problem is going to be that the whole suite needs to be re-purchased, apps n'all. Unless you can wangle a way to give it to "us" at 'no additional charge'

[localzuk]

The problem is going to be that the whole suite needs to be re-purchased, apps n'all. Unless you can wangle a way to give it to "us" at 'no additional charge'

 

If that were the case, I suspect people jumping ship... Our trust has spent many, many thousands buying new SIMS licenses, so having to pay again for the next version would undoubtedly be the last straw.

[vikpaw]

If that were the case, I suspect people jumping ship... Our trust has spent many, many thousands buying new SIMS licenses, so having to pay again for the next version would undoubtedly be the last straw.

 

I'm pretty sure that is the case, and also why they have to be fairly tight-lipped about announcing too much about the product and release scheduled could lead to accusations of them trying to stop people jumping ship. Not that staying with SIMS7 means you get 8 (or X, or whatever it will be) free, but the migration sure as hell will be easier. Being the market leader comes with it's downsides.

 

No doubt at the point of changing, people will be expected to review other market options, but that takes us back to the long laboured argument about whether school's 'have to' put out a tender and review x number of products etc. I would say that it's incumbent on the school to consider their options at any point. I know that when we jumped ship at my last school, had SIMS 8 been around or with availability within 18 months, we might have stuck it out.

[localzuk]

I'm pretty sure that is the case, and also why they have to be fairly tight-lipped about announcing too much about the product and release scheduled could lead to accusations of them trying to stop people jumping ship. Not that staying with SIMS7 means you get 8 (or X, or whatever it will be) free, but the migration sure as hell will be easier. Being the market leader comes with it's downsides.

 

No doubt at the point of changing, people will be expected to review other market options, but that takes us back to the long laboured argument about whether school's 'have to' put out a tender and review x number of products etc. I would say that it's incumbent on the school to consider their options at any point. I know that when we jumped ship at my last school, had SIMS 8 been around or with availability within 18 months, we might have stuck it out.

 

For us, we'd end up having to look at other options I think, possibly, as we'd have 6 schools worth of licenses at that point! Potentially more, if more schools join us!

[vikpaw]

It promises to be awesome, but I suspect price will be high and there's a risk it takes so long in the making that it's behind the times at launch.

However, browser based SIMS, that is definitely something I want to see. It could be a game changer, certainly for primaries.

[zag]

I'd gladly pay good money for a web based version that does not require local servers.

[PhilNeal]

I can't say too much more but the tech is bang up to date.

[Barcrest]

I was looking forward to it but I think we will be dumping Sims at some point, the incoming head has already gone for SISRA for reporting and assessment so I can see him having a different idea with regards to MIS.

[2ilent8cho]

I was looking forward to it but I think we will be dumping Sims at some point, the incoming head has already gone for SISRA for reporting and assessment so I can see him having a different idea with regards to MIS.

 

Same here, looks like by this time next year SIMS will be dumped, but it will be not just at this school, but at 4 schools within our MAT. Tired of waiting for SIMS 8 and the lack of any details makes it worse.

[Michael]

Without sounding negative, I don't quite understand why Capita won't share any information at all. I can only conclude it's because it's still years away, by which time (as others have already stated), Schools, Academies, MATs.. will all have moved to another product.

 

SIMS.net was years overdue from the original and unfortunately it very much looks the case as with SIMS Online. Showing us something in 2017 tells me it'll be more like 2018 and the way schools are moving towards an Academy like status, I can't help but think Capita will miss a lot of opportunities.

 

The only way forward with a MAT like setup is cloud based, it makes no financial or operational sense to continue using legacy software as more Staff are hotdesking across different associate locations.

[CAM]

How will timetabling work in SIMS 8? Can alternative timetabling software be used or will it have to be a web-hosted version of T6? Or can we use our own local T6 installs?

 

Will Exams and Options be updated? They are both a legacy-filled mess at the moment (Options is especially bad).

 

How will Census files be handled? Will they be generated and/or stored server-side or client side? Please remember, we need to access these files to send them to COLLECT or the local authority returns officer depending on the type of school.

 

Will module reports continue to be exported to Office applications or will they appear in a browser first? Or an online hosted version of Office?

 

Will a parental gateway system be included in SIMS 8 by default or will it costs more to access?

 

Will SIMS 8 be developed as cross-platform so it can be accessed on Windows, Linux, Mac or mobile? Please do not tell me you will require Windows-specific addons!

[2ilent8cho]

Will SIMS 8 be developed as cross-platform so it can be accessed on Windows, Linux, Mac or mobile? Please do not tell me you will require Windows-specific addons!

 

If they do require Windows specific add-ons client side i am going to push hard to dump SIMS if we have not made a decision to do so by the time they finally show something off,

. The Head already thinks SIMS belongs in a 1990s admin office with a bulky CRT monitor.

[localzuk]

To be quite honest, I don't understand why it is taking Capita so long to create.

 

Companies with much smaller teams of developers roll out far more complex systems in much less time. Their competitors have even!

 

It just makes me think that the internal machinations of Capita are getting in the way.

[CAM]

It's harder than you think when you take into account how complex [messy?] the SIMS database is. If they do clean up the database in SIMS 8, they MUST ensure you can transfer everything over from SIMS 7 and that it does so in a clean manner with no lost data for every school using SIMS in the country. Don't forget how much of a behemoth Capita's product is compared to other providers. Support for the sheer number of schools alone will be a logistical challenge when it comes to upgrade time.

[pcstru]

To be quite honest, I don't understand why it is taking Capita so long to create.

 

Companies with much smaller teams of developers roll out far more complex systems in much less time. Their competitors have even!

They suffer from a sort of "backwards compatible legacy" on an integrated platform that makes it complex to move on even with just incremental changes to modules within the existing .net n tier architecture. If you want a competitor to compare to, you need someone who has tried to move an existing MIS lock stock and barrel to a new platform. How well have Advanced Learning done with the transition from CMIS/ePortal to Progresso and how long have they been at it? Now consider they have a fraction of the customers SIMS needs to support through that transition.

Edited July 22, 2016 by pcstru

[Michael]

Depending how you look at it, Capita don't necessarily need to 'mess' with the database. All major MIS providers use MS SQL as the back end, so it's more so the user application side that needs upgrading.

 

The .NET element can all be done server side, but I suspect it's taking Capita long because (quite rightly) as others have stated, a lot of their components are well and truly up to their neck in Microsoft related technologies/protocols and to translate that into something like HTML5 is going to be a huge job.

 

I also think other issues are making it run at a suitable speed. The requirements of SIMS.net are very high, using bags of memory, so it's not just a conversion but a whole re-write. Remember even the likes of an iPad Air only have 1GB of DDR3 memory, which is comparatively low compared to a modern PC.

[sted]

Depending how you look at it, Capita don't necessarily need to 'mess' with the database. All major MIS providers use MS SQL as the back end, so it's more so the user application side that needs upgrading.

 

The .NET element can all be done server side, but I suspect it's taking Capita long because (quite rightly) as others have stated, a lot of their components are well and truly up to their neck in Microsoft related technologies/protocols and to translate that into something like HTML5 is going to be a huge job.

 

I also think other issues are making it run at a suitable speed. The requirements of SIMS.net are very high, using bags of memory, so it's not just a conversion but a whole re-write. Remember even the likes of an iPad Air only have 1GB of DDR3 memory, which is comparatively low compared to a modern PC.

true but do you need full sims on an ipad? I suspect most of the time it will just be used for attendance and at the end of the day it should just be altering values in an sql database something im sure lots of apps already do in fact if you design it to use html5 it should be easy to port to essentially any device i would of thought

[Michael]

That really depends - a native web application that works on any device would make sense. Having everything there (at your finger tips) would be advantageous, but the whole SIMS.net interface would have to be remodelled. It's not exactly touch screen friendly.

[pcstru]

Depending how you look at it, Capita don't necessarily need to 'mess' with the database. All major MIS providers use MS SQL as the back end, so it's more so the user application side that needs upgrading.

Depends what you mean by "mess with the database". Ideally an n-tier architecture decouples the application presentation from the business rules and those from the underlying data structures - but that is an ideal world. I've never seen it happen in practice. There is also coupling between the database and application security that is unlikely to be entirely fit for purpose in a new technology. So any redevelopment is unlikely to be able to avoid changes to the schema and as soon as that happens, you start to run into those "legacy problems".

 

There are some other interesting issues for them too. A good approach in terms of managing scope risks would be to freeze functional change while a transition is made to a new platform; so you have a like for like system in terms of data, validations and business logic. That way it doesn't matter what client the schools are using 7.last or 8.first - are both equivalent. But SIMS does not exist in an environment where business stays still. I'd bet ASC, CTF and 'statutory' functionality for their locales (Northern Ireland used to have it's own particular requirements) still suck up huge amounts of developer time in Cardington and Mumbai (or where ever offshore is these days). The external drivers for change are numerous, do not stop and some need to be delivered irrespective of the fact that it hampers other, more commercial plans.

 

Another issue they will face is people, knowledge and skills. Do you transition the people with good domain knowledge over to the new development and leave legacy development to contract/offshore or do you hire people with the development skills you need and try and transition the domain knowledge. Can you even find people with the right skills and knowledge? It's all very well getting someone who is a good C#/HTML5/PHP etc coder but you then need to integrate them into a team and turn them into (say) an FMS domain expert. All of that is again, complex, time consuming and expensive.

 

In the end, from the outside it is extremely easy to underestimate the complexity of building and maintaining something like SIMS for 20,000 customers. They have nearly 25 years of sometimes weird knowledge captured in their code. That legacy is just difficult to deal with.

[Michael]

When I said 'mess with the database', if the structure was left 'as is' it would make the transitions quicker/easier, as you'd literally be taking the database and moving it from an off site legacy setup to a cloud setup.

 

But again, as for how many of those 20,000 customers will be left? It sounds potentially marvellous, but lets wait and see.

[PhilNeal]

I've been resisting saying very much on this thread but looking at some of the speculation, I thought I would update the community.

 

SIMS8 is a complete rewrite of everything; there is a new database design that allows scaling. There is no way we could manage upgrading 22,000 separate databases regularly unless it was multi-tenanted.

 

We're using agile methodology and are determined to get it right - several technologies have been discarded because they didn't give good enough end user experiences. APIs are RESTful and partners will get access in the autumn.

 

Piloting will begin in January - we're pre-piloting with primary schools now. It will be released to primary schools in 2017 although we will limit numbers. Secondary schools will get an “8” version of Options in early 2017 and Exams Analysis hopefully in time for 2017 summer results. The complete package for secondary schools including a new Nova is expected for 2018/19.

 

“8” is not simply “7” in a browser – it’s a top to bottom rethink of everything! Every change request has been considered although not necessarily implemented. I'd like to think that many of the ideas and approaches will delight users.

 

I’d love to say more but that would cross into promoting!

[matt40k]

APIs are RESTful and partners will get access in the autumn.

 

Hoping I'm on that list

[SteveM555]

I've been resisting saying very much on this thread but looking at some of the speculation, I thought I would update the community.

 

SIMS8 is a complete rewrite of everything; there is a new database design that allows scaling. There is no way we could manage upgrading 22,000 separate databases regularly unless it was multi-tenanted.

 

We're using agile methodology and are determined to get it right - several technologies have been discarded because they didn't give good enough end user experiences. APIs are RESTful and partners will get access in the autumn.

 

Piloting will begin in January - we're pre-piloting with primary schools now. It will be released to primary schools in 2017 although we will limit numbers. Secondary schools will get an “8” version of Options in early 2017 and Exams Analysis hopefully in time for 2017 summer results. The complete package for secondary schools including a new Nova is expected for 2018/19.

 

“8” is not simply “7” in a browser – it’s a top to bottom rethink of everything! Every change request has been considered although not necessarily implemented. I'd like to think that many of the ideas and approaches will delight users.

 

I’d love to say more but that would cross into promoting!

 

I know it's probably not been thought about yet... But will School's have access to the API? Or will this be another Capita Partner only feature?