Lengthen school day says Gove!

[sparkeh]

The public sector has had it way too easy for the last decade or so

Wow, do you even know anyone working in the public sector, I doubt it as if you did you wouldn't be resorting to these kind of Daily Mail generalisations about lazy Public Sector workers.

Having teachers, doctors and nurses in the family, I know the pressures that are placed on these people and it certainly doesn't fit in with your view.

[One_Minute_Hero]

do i have to work longer hours? if so i want to be paid accordingly.

will the holiday calander be shorter? i should be able to book time off in term time.

 

although saying that where i work we have less holidays (4 in summer) and the kids to 8-4 mon and fri, 8-5 tue, wed, thurs. its bloody tiring tho! i do 720-410 and was in saturday just gone, sometimes a week off isnt enough.

 

to note i am still restricted to booking holiday outside of term time with the exception of TOIL days.

[localzuk]

That's another issue isn't it - when we take time off. If we all have to work longer, and holidays are more sparse, suddenly holidays are more concentrated in terms of people trying to get away. It means the cost of going away will go up.

 

One of the things that has been said before about doing this is to stagger holidays. But its not really doable, as you then end up with parents who have kids in different schools who can't have a family holiday.

 

Rest and respite are as important as working. Without them, people burn out - even kids.

[AMLinington]

I'm afraid I'm in support of this idea too - from the point of view of someone who will struggle to make ends meet unless I'm back at work within hours of birthing a sproglet, lengthening the school day would help tremendously where childcare and after-school supervision is concerned. If the school day finished at 5 more people would be able to work proper full time hours. In a country where the average full time private sector worker gets 25 days of holiday a year plus bank holidays in many cases, trying to accommodate the additional 8 weeks kids get is very difficult and expensive. Perhaps if kids were in school longer and had less holiday we might see a drop in the instances of antisocial behaviour as they would be supervised for more of the time?

 

I certainly think more time could be spent in school on languages, but I also feel that vocational interests shouldn't be underestimated - with more time in the school days schools could offer a more varied curriculum with more practical subjects - A more effective, practical IT curriculum, perhaps courses in Vehicle maintenance/mechanics, better 'household skills' like DIY and Cooking (perhaps if people learned how to cook properly they might eat better therefore less obesity?), and perhaps even 'Electronics', horticulture, carpentry, engineering etc etc.

 

I do agree though that the workload on people in the education sector is already high enough, so if they do extend the school day then this must be at the expense of more staff to cover the additional hours as I don't think giving teachers a higher workload is the answer. Similarly for non teaching staff there may have to be a 'shift' element to their jobs as there is in the private sector. Most non teaching staff seem to work until nearly 6 anyway so they are already working full time hours, therefore the day would need to be split with some staff covering the 'morning' and some the 'late'. In the private sector a person in IT would work 40 hours a week, with 25 days of holiday a year but would expect to earn between £20k and £30k at a second line level and upwards of £40k at managerial level. At the moment non teaching staff salaries seem to be pro rata so many non teaching staff are working long days but getting a LOT of holiday and earning between £15k and £20k. They would HAVE to up the wages paid if they extended school hours to match the sorts of hours worked in the private sector.

Edited April 22, 2013 by AMLinington

[localzuk]

Just to clarify - legal minimum holiday days is 28. However, bank holidays can be included in this number. Doesn't make much difference but still, best be accurate.

[sparkeh]

I am getting really fed up with successive governments' belief that they can cherry pick specific element of other countries education systems and parachute them into our system without any regard for the cultural differences, the history of how that country has reached this point or the effects of the making these changes.

 

For example, South Korea is often cited as a model system yet many have blamed the pressures of the system on a spiraling suicide rate: BBC News - Tackling South Korea's high suicide rates - this isn't something we want to emulate. We already have the unhappiest kids in the developed world (British children 'unhappiest in the world', say academics - Telegraph) with a pressurised education system (our kids are about the most tested kids in the world!), I don't think its a good idea to keep them in school and subject to that pressure for *more* hours a day!

 

Also, schools should not be seen as a baby sitting service so that parents can go to work. I totally agree that there is an issue with the cost of childcare in this country but surely the answer is to make childcare affordable, not extend school hours?

[Gibbo]

My daughter goes to a private school and the hours are shorter and holidays longer - she had at least 3 and a half weeks off at Easter.

 

But results are outstanding, so its not always a case of needing more time to teach.

 

But the six week holiday is a very outdated principle, wasn't it historically to allow kids to help with the harvest?

[sted]

does the extra time in school need to be teaching time? Wouldnt the extra time be better used doing something non academic say sports, first aid, cooking or as someone else mentioned vehicle maintanance granted that requires a new set of "teachers" but fot the less academically minded kids could be good to do something more practical. An obvious other idea is some sort of mass homework club so the kids can colabarate on stuff and dont have to work at home.

[Ephelyon]

Excellent point I think, @sted. The words "blended learning" and "flipped classroom" spring to mind...

[AMLinington]

does the extra time in school need to be teaching time? Wouldnt the extra time be better used doing something non academic say sports, first aid, cooking or as someone else mentioned vehicle maintanance granted that requires a new set of "teachers" but fot the less academically minded kids could be good to do something more practical. An obvious other idea is some sort of mass homework club so the kids can colabarate on stuff and dont have to work at home.

 

That's exactly my point - don't hammer the kids over the head with more maths and curriculum subjects, offer them choice - languages, practical IT, additional sports or vocational interests - we'd be more likely to see those less academically inclined actually get something out of being at school rather than ending up as a disillusioned troublemaker. I think vocational pathways are so often underestimated but if our cars break down who fixes them? If our boilers blow up or our pipes explode who do we turn to? Technicans and plumbers. These are important, valuable roles and when the zombie apocalypse comes, the practical roles will be the ones people need! The earlier we can get young people engaged in these subjects the earlier we can intervene to stop a young person who is less academically inclined from becoming disruptive and unproductive. Given how expensive continuing education is now becoming, many young people are 'priced out' of university and to offer the beginnings of vocational pathways at school would provide a real, valid alternative. I would certainly support my children in pursuing a practical course in IT (for example) as personally I feel hands-on experience is worth more than any amount of theoretical knowledge.

[sted]

That's exactly my point - don't hammer the kids over the head with more maths and curriculum subjects, offer them choice - languages, practical IT, additional sports or vocational interests - we'd be more likely to see those less academically inclined actually get something out of being at school rather than ending up as a disillusioned troublemaker. I think vocational pathways are so often underestimated but if our cars break down who fixes them? If our boilers blow up or our pipes explode who do we turn to? Technicans and plumbers. These are important, valuable roles and when the zombie apocalypse comes, the practical roles will be the ones people need! The earlier we can get young people engaged in these subjects the earlier we can intervene to stop a young person who is less academically inclined from becoming disruptive and unproductive. Given how expensive continuing education is now becoming, many young people are 'priced out' of university and to offer the beginnings of vocational pathways at school would provide a real, valid alternative. I would certainly support my children in pursuing a practical course in IT (for example) as personally I feel hands-on experience is worth more than any amount of theoretical knowledge.

 

exactly ive never got the everyone needs a degree mentality surely a degree is only worth having if not many other people do?

[pcstru]

exactly ive never got the everyone needs a degree mentality surely a degree is only worth having if not many other people do?

 

I find that view a little depressing. Is education meant to be simply a factory churning out workplace robots? Sure we need vocational skills for people to do jobs but is that what schools or universities should be doing? I like to think that a degree is worth having because it stimulated the student and they gained both knowledge and the discipline necessary to acquire and assimilate new knowledge. I'd like to think primary and secondary education had more to offer other than giving the country a bunch of plumbers, electricians or other robots that can be assimilated by employers. It's not that we should be turning out people who are incapable of work or who do not have skills essential to the workplace, just that the focus should not be on that as an end goal. Perhaps it's best summed up as the difference between teaching people *how* to think, not *what* to think.

[Ephelyon]

plumbers, electricians or other robots [\QUOTE]

 

I assume that's not meant to mean "all plumbers and electricians are 'robots'"?

Edited April 22, 2013 by witch

[pcstru]

plumbers, electricians or other robotsQUOTE]

 

I assume that's not meant to mean "all plumbers and electricians are 'robots'"?

 

It is poorly phrased :-(. My recent experience of both suggests robots generally have better timekeeping!

[LeMarchand]

I find that view a little depressing. Is education meant to be simply a factory churning out workplace robots?

 

Welcome to Britain under the Tories.

[nyiss]

I am in two minds about this. I agree it has benefits if implemented properly but I very much doubt it would be. We simply can't afford the huge costings it would require for extra staff hours and all that would go into keeping the school running longer. From the standpoint of schools like mine, if we had such a budget I think it would be much better spent on more staff to allow more time for each child. We have a high percentage of children with home difficulties and while I wish I could keep them at school safe and well all the time many of them simply wouldn't cope with days that long and it would most likely affect their attitude towards school, having big implications. I am in a primary school so it would be quite different from a high school. Children should be allowed to be children. They should go climb trees and eat worms. It really varies depending on the type of school, area and lots of other factors but I imagine they have done little to consider more than a blanket approach. What works for some schools in some countries will in turn only work for some in this country.

[edutech4schools]

Do you think longer days and less hols would be good for primary schools?

 

My 5 year old is more than ready for a break by the time they come round.

 

One thing and one thing only would get better results, Pay the teachers a decent wage, that way you would get intelligent people teaching our children and not have them going off to some bank in the city. The amount of people I know that opted not to do teaching at university because of the pay and went in to law or similar is a real shame as they would have made fantastic teachers.

Edited April 22, 2013 by edutech4schools

[LeMarchand]

One thing and one thing only would get better results, Pay the teachers a decent wage, that way you would get intelligent people teaching our children and not have them going off to some bank in the city. The amount of people I know that opted not to do teaching at university because of the pay and went in to law or similar is a real shame as they would have made fantastic teachers.

 

I don't think teachers are badly paid, and would suggest that if money is the prime motivator for encouraging people to teach then we will further skew children's values.

[edutech4schools]

I don't think teachers are badly paid, and would suggest that if money is the prime motivator for encouraging people to teach then we will further skew children's values.

 

My wife took a massive pay cut to work as a teacher, She could only do this as I work also otherwise should would not have an option. As for skew children's values, what on Earth do you think schools are for if not preparing children to work and to provide for their families?

 

I don't think teachers are badly paid

, said by someone that probably does not have many friends that work in the city. Most of the people I know laugh at the wages our teachers get, these are the people that actually got the highest marks while in education and actually understand maths or computer coding etc all of which is needed in schools is it not.

[Flatpackhamster]

Wow, do you even know anyone working in the public sector, I doubt it as if you did you wouldn't be resorting to these kind of Daily Mail generalisations about lazy Public Sector workers.

Having teachers, doctors and nurses in the family, I know the pressures that are placed on these people and it certainly doesn't fit in with your view.

 

Plenty. And I also work in a primary school.

 

Feel free to generalise about my generalisations, and keep reading that Guardian and Independent, I know they're the Fountain Of Truth.

[localzuk]

My wife took a massive pay cut to work as a teacher, She could only do this as I work also otherwise should would not have an option. As for skew children's values, what on Earth do you think schools are for if not preparing children to work and to provide for their families?

 

To provide a wide ranging education so as to produce well rounded and intelligent children. Schools are not job training factories.

 

, said by someone that probably does not have many friends that work in the city. Most of the people I know laugh at the wages our teachers get, these are the people that actually got the highest marks while in education and actually understand maths or computer coding etc all of which is needed in schools is it not.

 

Don't be obtuse. Teaching, as a profession, is not badly paid. Sure, if you compare it to investment banking, or software engineering it isn't the best, but it isn't badly paid. A teacher can hit >£40k income - that's not bad pay in any possible way.

[Flatpackhamster]

Welcome to Britain under the Tories.

 

And yet SATs and the continual testing regime came in under the Labour government...

 

Those crafty Tories, secretly exercising power while in opposition. Damn them. It's an OMGWTFLOLCABAL.

[witch]

And yet SATs and the continual testing regime came in under the Labour government...

 

Those crafty Tories, secretly exercising power while in opposition. Damn them. It's an OMGWTFLOLCABAL.

 

 

But to quote many a post from apologists for both sides of the political divide...

"They didn't change it when they got into power, did they?"

[Flatpackhamster]

But to quote many a post from apologists for both sides of the political divide...

"They didn't change it when they got into power, did they?"

 

Give Gove a chance, he's only got one pair of hands.

[Flatpackhamster]

Don't be obtuse. Teaching, as a profession, is not badly paid. Sure, if you compare it to investment banking, or software engineering it isn't the best, but it isn't badly paid. A teacher can hit >£40k income - that's not bad pay in any possible way.

 

 

A £40,000 a year salary puts you in the top 20% of earnings by income in the UK.

 

Of course that doesn't take in to account the final salary pension, which if it were in the private sector would put teachers well in to the top 10%.