Axel

@ AJBritton As I said above, there is not one definition of "Zero Client". We would describe a Zero Thin Client as a device that does not require an operating system at all so not embedded or dragged over the network on boot. I have also seen the name Zero Client applied to devices based on Terradici hardware -(the company who created PCoIP), Sunray technology and the various products that attach multiple clients to XP PCs.... These are all very different technologies but have the 'no local operating system' feature in common and do not drag an operating system over the network to boot.

[quote name=cookie_monster [*]do they out put much heat (i understand not but if there was a room of 32 of them???) We have two rooms that desperately needed air con with 30 PC's in there, since replacing them with Axel thin clients there's no need (7watt output) and they're silent making for a nice working environment. Cookie Monster - I don't want to appear picky - but they use 5 watts, OK, so 2w is not so much in real terms, but you can be happy your terminals are burning almost 30% less power than you thought...!

A request was made to start a new post on Zero Clients, so as forum sponsor we’d thought we’d start it...! The first thing to point out is that if you ask 5 different thin client manufacturers for a definition of a Zero Client you will get 5 different answers. I will let the other manufacturers add their interpretations as they see fit. As it is a marketing buzzword there is no “definitive” definition Axel‘s description of a Zero Client is a terminal that: 1) Has no operating system (stateless) 2) Has no local intelligence 3) Has no local browser 4) All applications are run on the server, or virtual machine 5) Does not need to pull an operating system over the network to boot As such they are very small, low cost, low power consuming devices, typically 5 watts max. Zero Clients are a natural response to conventional thin clients which have evolved in many cases to be very similar in complexity (and price) to entry level PCs – the very products thin clients were supposed to replace as much simpler devices. Our definition applies to the terminal connecting to a conventional Terminal Server/Citrix Server or to a virtual desktop. (ie VM Viewer or Citrix XenDesktop). As Virtual Desktop Infrastructure is allowing thin clients to operate in areas conventionally proscribed to PCs, this is an area of great interest to many parties. Some of the areas where PCs were traditionally deployed (ie multi-media) will start to be available to thin clients. Specifically for multimedia there are many competitive and incompatible products vying for this ‘new’ market, but there are two basic architectures. 1) Connection at a VGA level (such as RDP & ICA) 2) Connection at a GPU level (such as VMware’s PCoIP, Microsoft’s announced “Calista”, Citrix’s HDX(?) and various other proprietary offerings). Microsoft's plan to enter this market next year with their Calista technology will be very significant to all involved - love 'em or loathe 'em - what they do effects everyone. In brief it seems this product will directly support multi-media without the need to have embedded or downloaded codecs in the client . More information below for those interested. http://download.microsoft.com/download/5/E/6/5E66B27B-988B-4F50-AF3A-C2FF1E62180F/ENT-T591_WH08.pptx As I am starting to wander off topic I’ll leave the multimedia/VDI discussion for another post. I look forward to a lively and hopefully constructive debate on the subject of Zero Clients...!

Can anyone match this for a tidy thin-client installation ? The desks are manufactured by "ABC Desks", and the thin clients are the small black boxes with green LEDs ! Combined, all the thin clients in this classroom consume less power than one standard PC, and are totally silent. http://www.axel.com/pub/edugeek/image2.jpg http://www.axel.com/pub/edugeek/image3.jpg

There is a school in "NE40" who installed a couple of classrooms of Axel thin clients over the summer holidays - if that is near enough for you to visit I'd be happy to see if the IT manager at this school would be happy to see you. Other schools have posted comments about Axel at: http://www.edugeek.net/forums/thin-client-virtual-machines/22082-axel-ax3000-m70-lesson-monitor.html PM or email me if you would like to follow this up

VDI Licensing is not quite that simple (or cheap). See the link below: Microsoft makes more changes to VECD. They're still screwing us though. - Brian Madden - BrianMadden.com Also regarding PCoIP - Microsoft have a competing offering in the wings (Calista): http://download.microsoft.com/download/5/E/6/5E66B27B-988B-4F50-AF3A-C2FF1E62180F/ENT-T591_WH08.pptx Things change very quickly in the VDI market, MS, Citrix and VMware all looking for a bit of the action - it is not a place for the faint hearted !

Have you tried a different thin-client (or RDP PC) to see if it is the terminals or the servers that are causing the problem...?

...or if you would prefer to test a dedicated thin-client we can loan you one. The only setting up required is to enable DHCP and provide the IP address of the server. From unboxing to setting up to being connected to your server will take less than 30 seconds! Below are some comments of users who have gone down this route: http://www.edugeek.net/forums/thin-client-virtual-machines/22082-axel-ax3000-m70-lesson-monitor.html PM me, or fill out the link on http://www.axel.com to have one sent to you...

This may be a little off topic - but may be interesting to some.... The Carbon Trust offer interest free loans for renewal projects where there is a demonstrable saving in energy. We are working with a Borough Council who have applied for this loan to assist in the migration of old thin clients to modern greener Ultra-thin clients.....

Thanks Andy... francismcware - if we can provide an evaluation terminal please let me know. There is a school in Northampton who recently moved to Axel from the devices you mention - you can find details in the post below, and I am sure they would be happy to accept a PM if you have any questions or would like details of the specific technical reasons why they moved to Axel.... http://www.edugeek.net/forums/thin-client-virtual-machines/22082-axel-ax3000-m70-lesson-monitor.html This particular school run XenApp as opposed to XenDesktop, the M80 Thin Client supports both...

We have no plans to go in that direction. In terms of 'fiddling' with thin client, embedded in wall has no benefit over being securely attached to rear of monitor, neither will survive a determined attack, both keep desktop clear, our way possibly has fewer trailing cables and easier to move the 'work station' or deploy in middle of rooms... We have future plans to offer wifi, internal speakers, and VPN clients (for home workers), all of which for different reasons would not be well suited to being embedded in walls... (We have just released a wifi thin-client) However it's good to see another company producing something a little different and innovative and not, like many companies, simply churning out another "me too" CE/Linux/XP black box...!

There was an airshow near to us last week and a "Eurofighter" flying 200ft above made your spine vibrate and your eyeballs rattle in their sockets... (They also had a Vulcan V Bomber flying around - which is the coolest aircraft....)

Thanks Will, Butuz. Nathan, I appreciate it may be a little late if you can't return these devices, but please let us know if we can send you an Axel M80f to compare against your other thin clients for next time...

ICA and RDP take very little CPU power, you can dredge up your oldest PC and it'll work just fine as a thin client. For RDP and ICA most of the memory required is to maintain the screen, so the amount is a function of screen resolution and colour depth. (ie 7 Mb for 1920x1200 @ 24 bit colour) The real question is, what operating system to use in the thin client, as this is where the hardware resources really make a difference. A thin client based on XP will require a lot more hardware to run RDP/ICA at the same speed as a thin client running Linux, and the Linux thin client will in turn require a lot more hardware than a thin client that has no operating system and runs RDP/ICA direct from hardware...

Paul, Give me a call, I am sure we can sort something out regarding the little VGA cables. They didn't exist on our pricelist when you bought your terminals. Since then we have introduced a few school specific options as more schools have begun using Axel terminals and have given us helpful feedback. The power cable is 180cm long, which is the same length as a standard 'kettle type' computer mains cable. We had to select a length, and this seemed a suitable choice....

Axel have just released sound support for the M80f for RDP and ICA. Sound is delivered via USB points, we took the view to use a USB port over a phono connector, as USB ports are more versatile... Please contact Axel if you would like to receive this f/w, it takes about 30 seconds to install. We can provide free of charge a "USB to phono" dongle for those who wish to test but don't have USB headsets/speakers. We can also offer advice on sound, ie the issue of sound quality v. bandwidth is very different between W2003, W2008, Citrix, (and XP/Vista, for those dipping their toes into the wonderful world of VDI (VMviewer/XenDesktop). We are also looking for Beta testers for our new wifi thin-client. Please don't flame this posting - as sponsorer we clarified the content with the Edugeek "Authority". As around 80 Edugeeker's currently use Axel terminals this seemed an appropriate place to post this news, especailly as we developed sound support specifically for the education community!

You can - to keep it simple all you need is the terminal server and a thin-client. (It sounds like you want to evaluate thin clients, not PC's running RDP, but of course a PC would happily connect to your terminal server using its native RDP client...)

Craig, As you were getting so little feedback, here's my 2 cents worth. To start with all you need is your W2003 server and a thin client. You can contact Axel in Florida, they'd be delighted to loan you an evaluation thin-client. Axel: United-States You needn't worry about licensing, Microsoft give a 90 day grace period when you will be able to fully connect the thin client. (After this period the terminal server will refuse the connection until a TSCAL licence is bought) This will give an insight in thin clients and what they do/are and how they connect etc Citrix/Metaframe/Presentation Server/XenDesktop is another 'layer' that sits on top of Windows that gives extra functionality. There are lots of comments on Edugeek about Citrix and its merits versus its costs. Probably for 30 users you wouldn't need it, Hope that helps to get you started.... Matthew

....there's no reason why you can't use smart cards on W2003/W2008, and have the session "follow" you to any thin client you insert your card into....

@ cookie_monster I'll answer your questions below for the benefit of anyone else who is following it, all will be clear for you when you recieve the unit for evaluation tomorrow...

We have completed the development of USB sound drivers for the M80f, for RDP and ICA. The firmware is currently 'Beta' but we can make it available to anyone who wishes to test it/see it in action. There is a single setting in the configuration where this function can be toggled on or off. No device drivers are necessary. This new f/w can be flashed into existing M80f's in a matter of seconds, and the existing settings will be preserved Please send me an email if you would like to receive a copy of this f/w. Regards [email protected]

These are fully available now from Axel

@ plexer. Without a doubt correct, this would be a compromise, although with embedded XP in the monitor there is still one host per screen. Would Xibo care (or even know) if the XP machine was embedded in the monitor or out on the WAN. I would imagine Xibo communicates with the XP machine over LAN (so both the equivalent), and VNC operates at the same level as VGA, so this should have no effect on Xibo....

@plexer, no reason why not, I don't claim to be familiar with Xibo, but if it copies the media content to the local PC, it should work, the local PC would be machine running a VNC server, and the TC connect to that, so whatever the PC displayed, the TC would display. The difference being the PC would not be embedded in the monitor, rather somewhere out on the network, and the connection between the PC and screen would essentially be network/VNC. The interesting part (cost saving) would be deploying a standard PC and standard monitor, rather than monitor with embedded PC, which seem to be very expensive. The same software (whatever) should work There is a school in Dulwich who 'designed' and deployed this implementation, I can put you in touch with them if you want to explore further....

has anyone ever investigated the use of a thin client for signage. For example you could have an (old) PC running the "presentation" and running VNC server, and the thin-client configured as a VNC client to run keyboardless/mouseless to display the PC's screen remotely. (Could use RDP/ICA in same way and use shadowing to control the presentation) With thin clients being so small, supporting 1920x1200, providing auto-connection and auto-login, this could provide an interesting alternative and give a massive £ saving....