Axel

With Multipoint you have several options for connecting, each providing different levels of costs, performance, and load on server. -via VGA cards -via USB thin client -via ethernet/RDP (ie traditional thin client) Ultimately about the same amount of resource is required for each method, it is an issue of where the resource physically is, ie if the rendering occurs within the server, in a VGA card or in a thin client W2008 Mulitpoint was a totally separate product, essentially a low cost subset of W2008 W2012/16 Multipoint is demoted to a role within the normal server offering I don't know how this impacts licensing - someone else can pick up on that... The VGA/USB methods probably offer better performance - but search on here users comments on stability, special non Microsoft drivers are required. Using RDP thin clients will cost more (iro £150ea), but does give flexibility of migrating to the full server environment, VDI, Cloud etc, and provides a stable environment, due to having no third party drivers on the server. Also whatever you choose take care you have support for all the peripherals you may need, ie audio, memory sticks, attaching cameras, smartboards(!). It would be unsafe to assume all the methods of connection provide the same functionality....

VMware have produced their own new connection protocol called "Blast", which begs the question how long will they support PCoIP for....

...you could try RDP'ing into your Multipoint server from a PC - RDP'ing requires a lot less resources on the server than a USB connection - so if that works possibly the server is being overloaded....

You needn't go "full VDI" - "standard RDS (previously terminal services/RDP) would be a lot cheaper and nowadays does pretty much everything Citrix did/does.... Microsoft are announcing a lot of nice new features in the the latest versions - one of which is running multiple codecs in the same connection, for example running H264 for video and standard RDP for text in the same session - so you get the best of both worlds in terms of performance....

This is the alternative device mentioned in post above in action ! It connects to Multipoint or standard Microsoft server (up to W2012r2) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZLMBqD0c44

These may shed some light on your musings showing secure Gateway connection over https -connecting to either specific applications or an RDP desktop showing full VDI connection to a Win7 VM machine In a nutshell, on the server you can publish a combination of individual applications, RDS sessions and/or virtual machines (ie Win7) You point the client, regardless of it being a PC, laptop, thin client, or tablet (?) to the server URL (secure HTTPS connection) and all the above objects will be shown as icons. You can filter what icons are displayed and/or auto-launch specific objects/icons When you auto-launch or click on the icon - the client gets details of the resource/object to connect to and the connection is established - ie the same mechanism is used regardless of what you connect to Using a Gateway removes the need for a VPN Whether you go "session" or "VM" based is the key consideration, both provide a very similar, familiar Windows desktop, but the cost will vary significantly....

Thanks for all the (mostly!) helpful comments. In the end we resisted buying the game and bought them good old fashioned bow and arrows instead. (They love Hunger Games...) Strange how physical "weapons" are deemed far more socially acceptable than virtual violence.

So we begrudgingly let our kids play COD WOW/Ghosts/BlackOPs etc - despite them being well under the 16 rating. The new COD Advanced Warfare is rated 18, the kids assure it is the same in terms of killing/violence etc... Could anyone explain why the new game is rated 18 ? common sense would suggest it is "worse" - but having no experience in these things I don't know... Any help much appreciated !

Mrbios For what its worth I would suggest giving W2012r2 thorough consideration - most features Citrix was known for are now integrated into W2012. (I am sure someone will point out the Citrix only features, and they will no doubt be correct - but the gap between the two products has massively closed...) Your terminals support W2012, though you may need to update the f/w (free) to take advantage of some of the newer features (ie NLA, USB redirection etc). If you do explore the Citrix angle your current terminals support the latest levels ie StoreFront (Citrix 7.5) Matt

...where this thread "falters" is that a thin client costing £3/400 is almost certainly running Windows7. There is hardly any possible difference from a technical POV between a Win7 PC and Win7 TC, just the TC lacks the flexibiiity and upgradability of the PC. In terms of cost they're pretty similar. (extra cost of PC disk negated by sheer volume of scale of manufacture of PCs) A Win7 TC has far more in common to a PC than a "proper" TC and provides the worst of both worlds, ie expensive, high management overhead, high power consumption, short warranties, AV considerations, long boot times etc etc (ie all the things thin clients were supposed to resolve) So - as a manufacture - we would say - if you need the performance of a PC - use a PC - if you don't, get yourself a thin client, and take benefit of the lower cost and all the other benefits associated with thin clients. Win7 TC are essentially inflexible, non-upgradable, relatively expensive PCs and in many cases hard to justify - as many of the posters above argue....

.....you may also want to consider Microsoft Multipoint Server if only looking for 20 seats It's essentially a very low cost version of the full server version of W2008/W2012 aimed at the education sector - it does have some limitations but could be worth a look, you can download a free demo copy from MS... Windows MultiPoint Server 2011 Home Page https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZLMBqD0c44

Performance is not the reason people chose thin clients - PCs will always be faster and more flexible - the real question is, are thin clients fast enough for the intended purpose ? There are many benefits which in many cases out-weigh any performance limitations - for example cost, instant booting (a point the OP raised), silent, no fiddle-factor, no software updates - no virus implications or AV required - easy and remote administration etc. How long does it take to rebuild a failed PC ? - a TC can be replaced and the user connected to the work they were previously doing in 5 seconds... This may help set expectations for multi-media performance - it's a few years old - but most of the points are still relevant for a device costing in the range of £150... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMnzHJbHHT0

There is a Gateway feature in Windows2008/2012 very similar to the Gateway feature in Citrix. (XenApp is unrelated to this) So a bog standard PC can do what you suggest. OK Windows isn't "Open Source" - but not its not exotic either. In both cases using the Gateway feature merely means the user opens up an SSL connection (HTTPS) to the Gateway, and the Gateway directs the connection to the application server/session. So the application server(s) is not visible externally, only the Gateway is visible externally over the internet (its essentially a website). There is a video showing a thin-client connecting over an RDP Gateway here : - the RDP client in any PC is equivalent.

Abutters, You are rather focusing on the negative, a decent thin client shouldn't cost more than £150, (so half the price of your fat clients), also - you don't need to worry about any updates at the client end - no virus considerations at the client end - if one fails it is a 30 second job to replace and be back exactly where you were before the failure - thin clients, being solid state, should have at least 5 year warranty - thin clients should boot in a couple of seconds - typically use 5 Watts of power - assuming the client does not have an operating system it won't suffer the way XP devices have done - they're totally silent - they avoid the inevitable "fiddle factor" and possible theft "attraction" - take up less space - normally fitted to rear of monitor ? - massively easier job to update applications - as done once, centrally on server the list goes on... It sounds like your expectations were not correctly set at the onset, and I certainly wouldn't argue a PC is more flexible, but at the cost of all the points above. Please don't take this posting as questioning your personal experiences with your thin clients or your integrity, clearly your HP thin clients did not deliver for you - but I felt it fair to highlight the reasons why many schools do go down the thin client route, and most find the experience very successful, as shown here: http://www.edugeek.net/forums/thin-client-virtual-machines/22082-axel-ax3000-m70-lesson-monitor.html

I'm sorry, I can't help with that - for RDP connections you don't need any graphics card at all in the server

Most of the "problems" associated with Multipoint are due to the USB drivers. In many cases, even when using Ethernet connected devices, the actual technology is "USB over Ethernet" which is different to a generic Ethernet connection, in that the server "sees" a USB interface, and the driver packetizes this USB data into TCP/IP. HP acknowledged these problems and killed off their T200 product (USB over Ethernet) before is really even hit the ground... The other "issue" is that for USB connected devices, (and USB over Ethernet) - almost all the work is done on the server, so the servers have to work harder, especially if you scale up the number of clients. This is why there is a maximum limit to connected USB device well below the Microsoft imposed limit. The solution to both the issues above is to use RDP clients. You will need to qualify multimedia performance meets your expectations and the clients may cost a bit more, but you won't get the application conflict issues and connection problems.... Ultimately if connecting via RDP, Windows Multipoint is extremely similar to the corresponding full server version of Windows where RDP has been successfully used for years. Thin Client on Windows Multipoint Server - YouTube

You don't need a browser to connect to Citrix, Citrix's "Online Pluggin" will let you connect without a browser....

Abutters, I think you are in danger of confusing your "HP" experiences, with "Thin client" experiences - there is no technical reason why thin client manufacturers can't update their clients - some do, some don't - but that is a reflection on the support/marketing strategy of the manufacturer involved, not thin clients in general...

What "clients" are you using ? if "native USB" or "USB over TCP/IP", try using a PC and RDP'ing onto the server. With many incompatibility issues with Multipoint it is the USB driver causing the problem, not Multipoint itself....

This maybe what you are looking for: ? (Thin client connecting to direct virtual machine, single sign on, in several seconds, without a browser, in a 100% Microsoft VDI environment)

We will be looking for Beta testers for this very function in the next week or so - we recently implemented "RemoteFX/USB redirection" - which means in theory "any" USB device can be attached to the thin client and mapped back the the server - so all drivers/software reside on the server. This is "new" in 2012 (not available in W2008) If you're running W2012 and interested please give me a call (we are in Surrey too...)

what happens if you RDP from a PC and connect to same website....?

"used to" - what happened ! although a few years old, with a free f/w flash they will be bought bang up to date for W2012, (NLA), VDI, RemoteApp etc etc....

Mr Mrbios - send me your details and I can send you an ex-demo M80 - for keeps - no strings - gratis - it will happily connect to your WMS, or anything up to W2012 - it should "sell" itself..... [email protected] Edugeeker's comments here... http://www.edugeek.net/forums/thin-client-virtual-machines/22082-axel-ax3000-m70-lesson-monitor.html This very week we are involved in a 160 thin client school install up near Halifax - I can arrange an email conversation/introduction/reference if you're interested - the same school already has many M80s so they also have experience of living with terminals (not just installing them !) --is our website really that bad ?--

There are devices "out there" that run the Citrix Receiver direct from hardware, ie with no underlying operating system - so no local PC/Linux window to "confuse" matters, just the Citrix session. The other feature you are looking for in your previous email is the "auto-reconnect" feature - but not sure if PCs offer this.... Good Luck