Extracting data from an MIS

[Guest MikeBostock]

A continuing problem that schools have is getting their data easily and reliably from their MIS. It seems to go in easily enough but getting it out again is a different story. Schools seem to have lots of problems with using reports to reliably extract their data.

Becta are addressing these sorts of problems through the Schools Interoperability Framework (SIF) which aims to provide a standardised export format in XML sent via HTTPS and requiring an Agent by recipient software to convert it back again into the data that is needed. This seems to me a bit like putting your paycheck into the bank and, when wanting to withdraw £50, finding you have to buy and program your own ATM. Does anyone have any experience of extracting data reliably from a school MIS who could comment on this problem or the extent to which SIF is likely to make it easier for schools to do their own research using their own data?

[webman]

I personally believe the school's data should be easily accessible (eg. not just a command-line report export utility that we are restricted to at present) at no extra cost, from any MIS and at any time.

 

With a lot of Network Managers and Technicians having programming experience and working with databases, MIS data is a valuable asset to have. This allows users to innovate and develop new ideas that will enhance teaching and learning, and assist admin staff with custom-made applications.

 

Virtual Learning Platforms can benefit hugely from MIS data. At present, for this to happen, I am lead to believe that VLE developers (infact any third party developers) have to pay for a license to be able to write software that can interact with the SIMS database, at a cost of around £5,000. IMO, this is quite a large figure just to get hold of an SDK; which immediately locks-out small software houses and open source vendors alike. This has a knock-on effect of this license cost being passed on to the customer - the school.

 

There are many threads on the forum where the question has been raised about obtaining information from MIS systems, with most coming to the same conclusion - there is no standard, simple method of getting this data without going against a license agreement or jumping through hoops.

[PhilNeal]

Mike, I don't understand why your RepDef works in 80% of SIMS schools and not in the remainder? SIMS doesn't have different data structures in different schools.

[PhilNeal]

Webman, SIMS includes IMS Enterprise as standard; a free key is available from your support unit. This web service can incrementally update a VLE with student, staff and class data.

 

A third party can buy a licenced copy of SIMS for £5000. Capita does not charge third parties licence fees for reading data from SIMS.

 

There are licence fees for creating routines that write back to SIMS and for that we guarantee that we will make every attempt to fix a schools data should something go wrong. We employ a team to support this activity.

[Guest MikeBostock]

I think that this issue is not a simple one and it would be greatly helped by feedback from experienced users who might be able to shed a light on the technicalities.

From our visits to schools to try to help them get their data out, the main problems using RepDef reports seem to be:

1. When choosing the file to export, the narrow display box can clip the last characters of file names - often the date. Trial and error is then needed to find the right file.

2. The data gets 'rolled over' and often can't be found again

3. Data exported for the correct cohort sometimes has blank fields e.g. no subjects and grades

Re:2 We include an option in the RepDef to choose a date (prior to rollover)

Re:3 We were told that this last problem occurs when a school didn't do its housekeeping 'Export to DMS'. We have documented this but it rarely solves the problem when exported files are blank.

Our final option for schools when all this fails is to ask them to contact their SIMS support team. To date this last option hasn't yet resulted in a school getting its hands on the data that it put into SIMS in the first place.

My feeling is that SIMS needs a far easier and more reliable data export option. With inspection depending more on schools analysing their own data this is going to be an obstacle on a national scale. I dont feel that SIF is going to solve the problem of allowing a school to get its base data out again, although I can see the sense of SIF for enabling linking with a Learning Platform.

[GrumbleDook]

Part of me is split on this.

 

I want to be able to say that performing SQL queries and scripting them to get data out into another system seems a fine idea ... apart from the fact that I have just spent 9 months building up a reporting system within Assessment Manager and I know that it is tailored for my school, and it'll be a pig to build up the required queries to get data out, even if I knew where to get it from.

 

I also know that within SIMS there are good methods of getting the data into certain formats with a certain amount of analysis already done via Assessment Manager.

 

I know that if I was to do the same in CMIS my answer would still be the same ... and presumably for the other major MIS too.

 

Transer of data to another system is fine you getting a school to specify what data is need is a nightmare. Seriously ... some will want homeworks recording into it, some attendance (per lesson), some will only want termly predicted grades, other to include effort too ... and then you have software that marks work and has to dump it somewhere ....

 

It is individual to each teacher, to each department and each school.

 

Do we say that MIS providers should give everyone a complete layout of their database and complete access? Free of charge after they have spent so many years building, breaking and rebuilding it? I can understand why they hesitate.

 

Yes, it is getting better ... and some issues with data come down to the school not knowing what they want or understanding what they have.

 

The advent of RAISEonline and the increased use of data to hound schools has pushed this to the forefront, but there are still too few people in schools that have the knowledge and expertise to work with data in a fashion where we can say 'give the complete access' with the risk of breaking things, or misunderstanding them.

 

Until there is a piece of paper giving schools serious guidance on what the minimum they are expect to record and analise we will have issues ... and the material that has gone to schools (or available via various training courses from SSAT, NCSL, ASCL, etc) tends to leave it open for schools to decide what to do.

 

This results in a lot of work being done creating clever excel worksheets, or mangling into Access or a second DB, increasing the work required.

 

Successful schools tend to keep it simple, failing schools go into overload ... surely there must be a middle ground?

[Kained]

At work we use CMIS, we find this a pain to get the data the way we want it easily, in my opinion we pay alot per year for this system and should be able to have analysis and the push of a button not spend hours creating own reports, i do like the idea of being able to customise things for my self but i do belive there should be atleast some ways of producing those pretty graphs and colour comparissons with ease

[StArbiter]

Welcome Mike. If you are looking for specific help on these forums you may need to provide a bit more information. Phil's question is a good start as to why your report may work with 80% of schools and not the others - is it the way you have constructed the report or could it be the quality of the data in the schools SIMS system ?

 

1. When choosing the file to export, the narrow display box can clip the last characters of file names - often the date. Trial and error is then needed to find the right file.

>>> we found using the Third Party SDK removed all the user generated errors in exporting SIMS data - any reason why you are not using this simple tool ?

 

2. The data gets 'rolled over' and often can't be found again

>>> can you clarify and expand what you mean ?

Re:2 We include an option in the RepDef to choose a date (prior to rollover)

>>> by rollover do you mean year end ? e.g. you may be exporting data for a group no longer on the school roll ?

3. Data exported for the correct cohort sometimes has blank fields e.g. no subjects and grades

>>> do you mean all the cohort or only some ?

 

Re:3 We were told that this last problem occurs when a school didn't do its housekeeping 'Export to DMS'. We have documented this but it rarely solves the problem when exported files are blank.

>>> do you mean fields or files ?

[klawd]

Part of me is split on this.

 

I want to be able to say that performing SQL queries and scripting them to get data out into another system seems a fine idea ... apart from the fact that I have just spent 9 months building up a reporting system within Assessment Manager and I know that it is tailored for my school, and it'll be a pig to build up the required queries to get data out, even if I knew where to get it from.

 

I also know that within SIMS there are good methods of getting the data into certain formats with a certain amount of analysis already done via Assessment Manager.

 

I know that if I was to do the same in CMIS my answer would still be the same ... and presumably for the other major MIS too.

 

Transer of data to another system is fine you getting a school to specify what data is need is a nightmare. Seriously ... some will want homeworks recording into it, some attendance (per lesson), some will only want termly predicted grades, other to include effort too ... and then you have software that marks work and has to dump it somewhere ....

 

It is individual to each teacher, to each department and each school.

 

Note: I am forced into using SIMS so my experience is only based on that product.

 

Sure, but at least lets have this flexibility. Most schools are interested in data reporting that means something to them, rather than end of year returns and all these other statutory requirements. SIMS does not have to (and should not attempt to) fill every niche a school wants.

 

Do we say that MIS providers should give everyone a complete layout of their database and complete access? Free of charge after they have spent so many years building, breaking and rebuilding it? I can understand why they hesitate.

 

Yes - who exactly owns the database?

 

Lets not forget that it seems many schools are forced into using SIMS because its what everyone else seems to use, rather than its merits or reputation as a quality product.

 

It is no surprise that schools want to develop their own solutions, rather than giving another few £xxxk to Capita each year for a "new feature" that should have been included from the outset or one they can create for a lot less.

 

If there really has to be such tight control why not have an arrangement where schools can read or write to the database as required, if they want to, using the business objects API.

 

If the school then wishes to redistribute a product it has created commercially, it can pay Capitas license fee.

 

For a company that is allegedly in service to schools, it seems to be rather protective of data that it does not actually own. Without the diligent data entry by schools in the first place, there is no "SIMS database".

[StevenEdgar]

Lets face it there are only a few suppliers of MIS for schools and each one will build a product that fills the statutory requirements and thioose things that the majority of schools have asked for. They all have their merits and "issues". SIMS have the bulk of the market as until recently there wasn't much in the way of competition - this is changing. Schools need to look at the competitiopn and see what suits tham best. Only thios was will all the suppliers tailor their products to what is required in the marketplace. In my experience I cannot think of a single school who have either the time/experience to develop their own apps and in the odd occaision where even a small app have been developed it cannot be supported once the author has departed ........ a big risk I would say

[Geoff]

Well there's the third way. Keep an eye on some up and coming open source options. School Tool & FreeMIS

[StevenEdgar]

Apologies for the typos - must get my fingers to do what they are told.

 

Lets face it - all MIS are a joy to work with !!!

[StevenEdgar]

very true as long as it is supportable

[Guest MikeBostock]

It would be good to build a small Knowledge Base to document what this community knows about this subject.

I think it is the case that every secondary school in the land takes exam data from their MIS and then an assistant head (perhaps) processes it in Excel (over 2-3 days?) to make lists to give to subject leaders and Governors. This is a huge expenditure of energy.

[StArbiter]

Mike - I fit your description of a school IT professional with experience of exporting data but cannot help if you can't provide answers to the very specific questions posed in my reply of April 10th.

[Guest MikeBostock]

1. When choosing the file to export, the narrow display box can clip the last characters of file names - often the date.

We have kept with the use of Reports to extract data because Capita say that these should work.

 

2. 'Rolled over' refers to what a SIMS manager does each year. The Y9 file becomes Y10 etc. In schools without a sixth form we are not sure what Y11 becomes. Some schools seem to lose the data altogether, others seem to be able to use the date stamp in our RepDef to retreive the data. If Y11 files have been deleted there is no scope for a school to do its own research in advance of an inspection.

 

3. Data exported for the correct cohort sometimes has blank fields e.g. no subjects and grades. We were told that this last problem occurs when a school didn't do its housekeeping 'Export to DMS'.

[StArbiter]

I think it is the case that every secondary school in the land takes exam data from their MIS and then an assistant head (perhaps) processes it in Excel (over 2-3 days?) to make lists to give to subject leaders and Governors. This is a huge expenditure of energy. We have worked with schools to create some simple tools to make the processing of the data easy (a 10 minute job now), but we still have snags getting data out of MIS in a standardised format.

Perhaps any experts at doing this can contact me off-list about this?

If anyone is interested in seeing the tools schools in our project are using there is an example at http://www.4matrix.org/example. Contact me if you would like to try it out in your school.

 

Mike I have now had a chance to look closely at your software and am struggling to see anything it can do that my exams officer cannot do for me in 2 minutes using SIMS.

What are the key features and benefits 4Matrix provides I can't get from my MIS ?

[GeorgeFaux]

I think its untrue that everything needs to be exported to excel, certainly I only did this in CMIS when other people needed to make additions. Te problem is as people have said in this thread that cmis does not come with default reports and forces you to create. Schools and organisations are proprietary about sharing and hence this creates a large amount of duplicaiton.

[Guest MikeBostock]

It is excellent if exam officers are able to reliably extract their data from their MIS and process it so rapidly into useful reports for school leaders.

[GrumbleDook]

Mike

 

I can understand that you have a product that performs certain tasks that can make life easier when generating reports and so on, however there are lots of people that can do it from within SIMS too.

 

I know that there is very little that we need to do outside of SIMS now too.

 

I sometimes wonder about schools that buy into these products to produce reports and to help make judgements on information that is already in school. If the leadership in a school truly wants to understand data and the use of it then they need to sit down and work out what reports they need and want, and not reports based on what a company finds is the best response to the latest set of hoops that a school has been asked to do so.

 

If a school spends the time working out how to do it themselves they have a greater understanding and can adapt to fit changing needs ... who knows what RAISEonline will be like next year?

 

I know not every school has the capacity to do this, but some schools actually do rely too much on having others provide the answers for them rather than understanding the issues themselves. If tools like this are to be used then it must be as part of the progress to a greater undersand of the role of data.

[GeorgeFaux]

Raise online looks ok, but not really up to the standard of information in Fischer. The fundemental issue here is schools not really having a handle on what their data strategy is and not knowing either how to a) extract data from the managment system or b) have anything to do with it once they have it.

 

The questions should be; How are the students doing? Why are they performing like this? What are the interventions we can put in place to change this?

 

Most schools and management systems are totally concerned with snapshots of how students are doing not putting targeted interventions in place to change this which is the hard part. All management systems can get out data, the only question should be can it give out the data to allow managment to make changes for the better.

[Guest MikeBostock]

Thanks to all who have responded to my original question about whether there are reliable ways to extract a school's data from their MIS.

For some schools at least I suspect that this will remain an issue that this community would be right to use its collective expertise in order to find solutions to.

I think schools will need a choice of tools in order to make good use of their data. Different tools will appeal to different people of course.

What is clear to me is that the use of performance data by schools has a very long way to go, and I expect that in years to come we will think that the tools we are using now are fairly primitive.

[PhilNeal]

The questions should be; How are the students doing? Why are they performing like this? What are the interventions we can put in place to change this?

 

Most schools and management systems are totally concerned with snapshots of how students are doing not putting targeted interventions in place to change this which is the hard part. All management systems can get out data, the only question should be can it give out the data to allow management to make changes for the better.

 

George I totally agree with the first part of your statement and I also agree that most schools are not unlocking the potential of their data seeing data as something that is returned to DfES/NAW/DENI rather than something that can help pupils improve. At Capita and I'm sure at Serco we do invest significantly in producing tools to analyse data. SIMS is a temporal database i.e. we can set the clock to any point and see how the data was and that allows us to track changes over time. This enables us to track change and help with reporting, target setting etc.

 

We have produced a free on-line, MIS independent tool, that allows senior leadership teams to see exactly what an MIS can do to help a school improve. http://www.dataforimprovement.co.uk

[limbo]

Just caught up with this topic so this is going to be a bit disjointed and not really flow with the conversation so appologies for that.

 

I have experience of extracting data from CMIS and SIMS - neither of which are exactly a dream to get the data out of, CMIS being slightly better in my experience because of its SQL base.

 

This is not a problem that is confined to the world of Educational MIS - almost every accounts department I have ever support have the same problems with software like Sage.

 

The usual answer is a third party reporting system like Crystal Reports - although I usually managed to hook them up with what they wanted using an Access Database connected through ODBC (Access reports can be very powerful!).

 

There are many reports I just cannot get from CMIS using their report engine (at least I could not when I investigated a couple of years ago) - mainly mutli line reports.

 

I resorted to using Access through an ODBC connection to the server and pulling out the data that way - this is, by default, a read only connection so there is very little danger to the data.

 

It is, however, a huge job to work out what data is where - particularly attendance and assessment data. But with a bit of work it is possible to set up routines that make it very easy to extract just certain data.

 

We have now taken this to the next step beyond that and have Excel spreadsheets that go and refresh themselves from the data - filtering out the data that the parituclar user needs (the same spreadsheet for all users will output different results depending on who is updating it!). It can also tell the difference between the whole school data, like forecast grades and effort grades, and individual departments data like homework results and assignment grades.

 

The position we are now in is that a big chunk of our VLE / MLE / VLP is made up of data that gets extracted live from the MIS. Keeping class lists, student lists, staff info etc. up to date with zero maintenance (although according to the Advisors at our LEA this is not possible).

 

I think the point I am trying to make is that this is not a problem that is going to go away, and there is not necessarily any magic fix that the MIS companies are going to produce. There are answers out there already that are very legitimate and flexible solutions - yes they will cost either time or money, but then if the MIS companies invest a lot of time in producing these kind of reporting engines then they are not going to give them away for nothing either!

[NetworkGeezer]

but then if the MIS companies invest a lot of time in producing these kind of reporting engines then they are not going to give them away for nothing either!

 

All I want is a decent API that doesn't involve shell piping or writing and hosting a web service myself. Just a COM object to call on my own (d'ya see what I did there ).

 

This still allows for a level of indirection which means that the software company isn't tied to supporting obsolete data structures.