Capita 'billed schools £75m too much'

[CampusGuy]

Interesting news - this means we will pay less?

 

Capita 'billed schools £75m too much' | Business | The Observer

[GREED]

Doubt it.

 

Interesting part which says that it integrates financial, record keeping and timetabling etc into its software, making it hard to basically go with another company for any of these...

 

Firstly show me timetabling software that does it better!

 

Also, the point it that integration makes everything work better, we don't want to have to export a file from one software then import into another and convert along the way...

 

Surely Capita as the makers should be allowed to make this integration between their software as good as possible, not just average to allow other to also 'have a go'...

 

Additionally, all the other MIS packages I am sure are all integrated in some way which would be difficult for others to link with...

 

I'm not arguing the price should come down, but think the argument hasn't been thought out based on that report...

 

[pete]

I think the complaint would have more credibility if Bromcom weren't heading it.

 

I'd be interested in an explanation of what they mean by the "research and development levy".

[GREED]

I don't think that come up on a bill or anything like that...

 

Prices have increased obviously over 10 years, and Capita have probably passed part of R&D costs onto us in the annual maintenance... show me a company that doesn't do that in one form or another.

[vikpaw]

I'm interested to know Becta's slant on this.

 

Some of the modules are optional, so, so long as integration with other third party software is allowed, then i guess that's not monopolysing (spelling?). However, i've heard Capita have made it difficult for third parties to integrate.

 

I know Bromcom had another complaint with OFT about this in the past, and got a ruling on it.

Plus, many on here have tried to access the reporting features externally to the system and run into problems getting access to the manual / documentation.

 

Definitely food for thought.

[localzuk]

Doubt it.

 

Interesting part which says that it integrates financial, record keeping and timetabling etc into its software, making it hard to basically go with another company for any of these...

 

Firstly show me timetabling software that does it better!

 

Also, the point it that integration makes everything work better, we don't want to have to export a file from one software then import into another and convert along the way...

 

Surely Capita as the makers should be allowed to make this integration between their software as good as possible, not just average to allow other to also 'have a go'...

 

Additionally, all the other MIS packages I am sure are all integrated in some way which would be difficult for others to link with...

 

I'm not arguing the price should come down, but think the argument hasn't been thought out based on that report...

 

 

When any company has pretty much a monopoly, they are subject to different rules to ensure fair play with customers. Capita is a monopoly in the education MIS market, there is no doubt about it (just like Microsoft is a monopoly in the OS market). So, to ensure that schools aren't being screwed over, they should be monitored to make sure they are providing a level playing field and to make sure competitors aren't being pushed out via their business practices.

 

That said, integration between products is useful, yes, but at the same time the allegation about Capita making it notoriously difficult to build products that work with its systems is one that can't be denied totally. Their NDA for the business objects is restrictive to say the least - for example, if I had signed it, I would not have been able to complete half of our cashless catering system myself, instead I would have had to utilise their dinner money product - ie. locking myself and any future user of my software in to their product line.

 

I feel there could well be a case or 2 to answer to with the OFT.

[GREED]

I agree that Capita have histroically been very closed when it comes to opening the software up to other companies.

 

I guess the whole monopoly thing just gets me sometimes... Companies are forced to make their products not as good as they could be to allow for the potential for others to firstly work with their software... with the potential in the future that those others to steal ideas and in the future steal customers away...

 

It was like the whole MS thing a few years ago, MS are forces to share parts of the OS code so others can copy it.

 

Don't get me wrong the monopoly regulation is a good and fair one, but businesses like Capita are in that position for a reason... they make the best software.

 

PS incase anyone is wondering, I know nothing about law or anything like that... I just see things from my own unique perspective!!!

[localzuk]

I see it completely the opposite way around - from a consumer point of view. Customers getting locked into software is a bad thing. It prevents people from being able to offer competing products - just like that NDA I mention. As a consumer, I don't care about company interests. I'm only bothered about *my* interests, and that I'm not being ripped off.

[GREED]

Absolutely localzuk, totally agree.

 

However often the product that you receive suffers as a result of being forced to accomodate other software, particually with integration.

 

At the end of the day, yes I want competitive prices, but above that I want a stable, secure, easy to use system, and that is the best it can be at meeting all of those.

 

I think MIS is a little unique in that if you have one system up and running and you are happy with it, it is a lot of time, effort and money to change to a product that is slightly cheaper, especially in a schools environment.

[Guest Guest]

....... Edited December 7, 2009 by Guest

[CAM]

Opening up to competition is good provided the transfer of data between rival MIS systems is easy and uses a set standard. This requires all development companies to work together so you could transfer pupil data from one system to the next seamlessly if moving from a SIMS school to a Serco school as an example, or transfer Assessment Data between the two and so on. Perhaps a MIS overview committee to watch over their development and lay down standards? (Provided it doesn't turn into yet another Quango).

[Hecate]

I always get uncomfortable when the main critic of a system like SIMS stands to benefit from breaking it up - think about Stagecoach and bus deregulation - or Rupert Murdoch lobbying for the break up of the BBC. I just don't think the consumer experience is their main concern. Any integrated software application is restrictive - can you directly export the output of an Access query into any spreadsheet other than Excel - tight integration is what makes it work. We do have some other management software for areas not covered by SIMS and exporting the bits we need out of SIMS importing them into the other applications, keeping them synchronised and troubleshooting when it goes wrong can be very time consuming. Also SIMS stands out as a target as they are the major supplier. How to other MIS vendors compare in this respect for example do Serco make it possible for third parties to develop for Facility

[Sivadam]

If you read other threads re. Capita SIMS you find people complaining because Capita charge 'extra' for some products. This, as far as I aware, is precisely to avoid the monopolies problems and allows others to feed of efforts that Capita have made to make their products interoperable.

Yet more threads on here are from companies/individuals that are advertising products that can work with SIMS and are being sold as alternatives to the Capita products. Some even 'claim' to be better - not sure how they can be if Capita are supposed to be ring-fencing their products! These include Timetabling and Financial packages as well as Pupil Database, On-line reporting etc etc.

 

One wonders if all the critics could get together in one room and argue the ins and outs of this one. It should make interesting viwing/listening!

[localzuk]

If you read other threads re. Capita SIMS you find people complaining because Capita charge 'extra' for some products. This, as far as I aware, is precisely to avoid the monopolies problems and allows others to feed of efforts that Capita have made to make their products interoperable.

Yet more threads on here are from companies/individuals that are advertising products that can work with SIMS and are being sold as alternatives to the Capita products. Some even 'claim' to be better - not sure how they can be if Capita are supposed to be ring-fencing their products! These include Timetabling and Financial packages as well as Pupil Database, On-line reporting etc etc.

 

I can't post the exact wording from the NDA, as that would be Capita's copyright, but I can point out that there are lines which specifically state that if you utilise the Business Objects for extracting data, that you can't sell your product if it competes directly or indirectly with any of Capita ES's.

 

That specific line was why I didn't sign, and have to make do with exporting xml files for the uses I want.

 

So, whilst they may allow export of data, it is seemingly designed specifically to make it a more cumbersome process to do so for their competitors - which is pretty much the definition of anti-competitive.

 

One wonders if all the critics could get together in one room and argue the ins and outs of this one. It should make interesting viwing/listening!

 

There wouldn't be a room big enough Maybe a stadium?

[GREED]

Surely though every company in the world wants you to buy their sister products and add on modules, and so make sure that they have an advantage over the others by building in links and integration. They don't make it more difficult, because they tend to use standards (like xml), but rather make integration with their own products EASIER.

[localzuk]

Surely though every company in the world wants you to buy their sister products and add on modules, and so make sure that they have an advantage over the others by building in links and integration. They don't make it more difficult, because they tend to use standards (like xml), but rather make integration with their own products EASIER.

 

There is a difference between having a value added reason to use a company's own products and having to use them because the competition is forced to jump through artificial hoops inflicted by a company.

 

This exact same issue was one that Microsoft was found guilty on - namely using functions that they wouldn't let other companies use and thereby giving themselves an advantage.

 

If Capita weren't a monopoly, this would be a non-issue. But as they are, it is a whole different ballgame.

[GREED]

I agree with that, but I don't think Capita make artificial hoops.

 

Firstly, the majority of thier software is encompassed within one whole package, one could argue that it is one piece of software. So there is no output or input of data, it is all just there.

 

Secondly, no artificial hoops as any data is stored in standard formats, not clever made up ones, these being within SQL databases and outputs come to Excel or XML files, all more or less standards these days. Competitors are free to use them if necessary.

 

What competitors want is Capita to build links like '-> Export to < Enter MIS Here >.', which is never going to happen. MS are never going to build a 'Make Windows look like a MAC' facility (although sometimes I wish the would!!!)

[localzuk]

I agree with that, but I don't think Capita make artificial hoops.

 

An NDA with specifications about the commerical use of a competing product is an artificial hoop.

 

Firstly, the majority of thier software is encompassed within one whole package, one could argue that it is one piece of software. So there is no output or input of data, it is all just there.

 

Not really. It is made up of a mass of DLL files, each one doing its own bit. Each one optional etc...

 

Secondly, no artificial hoops as any data is stored in standard formats, not clever made up ones, these being within SQL databases and outputs come to Excel or XML files, all more or less standards these days. Competitors are free to use them if necessary.

 

Excel is not standard. No way no how. Just had to say that Accessing the SQL database directly is a violation of the EULA for customers - so if they use a product made by a third party that does that, without a license from Capita, then they are up a creek without a paddle should anything go wrong.

 

What competitors want is Capita to build links like '-> Export to < Enter MIS Here >.', which is never going to happen. MS are never going to build a 'Make Windows look like a MAC' facility (although sometimes I wish the would!!!)

 

No they don't. They want the ability to use an API like Capita use to access the data directly - without rules and regulations being foisted upon them. They want standards to be formed and adhered to. (Although, there was a legitimate issue with one standard that is currently being worked on, which giving Capita their due, they brought to attention).

[mpe]

However often the product that you receive suffers as a result of being forced to accomodate other software, particually with integration.

 

If the product is a monopoly then having that kind of thing happen is probably in the interests of the supplier.

[GREED]

No they don't. They want the ability to use an API like Capita use to access the data directly - without rules and regulations being foisted upon them. They want standards to be formed and adhered to. (Although, there was a legitimate issue with one standard that is currently being worked on, which giving Capita their due, they brought to attention).

 

But until those standards are made up and agreed to by all parties (most likely forcefully) then there can't be anything done, and then surely this is then down to the government or some other body. Which then brings up the next problem in that companies like this are international/multinational and so there has to be global standards setup... ok ok I know there is more to it than that but that is the jist!

 

 

Interestingly going back to the content of the artical... this was brough up by competitors to Capita, not 3rd parties as such. They don't want to access the data, because they have their own thing going on. 3rd parties, generally if they work with Capita can work on getting access along the way (I don't know that but assume). Going back to your comment above, because the data IS in a 'standard' such as SQL, and this goes back to moving to a competitor, then the competitors can develop ways to access and migrate the data out of SQl into whatever format they use.

 

Capita do it the other way...

 

I do take your point though about market shares and monopoly rules being different.

[hailstorm]

What irritates me most of all about SIMS is because of it's dominance it forces schools to run Windows if they want to use it. Linux, Mac don't get a look in.

[GREED]

That is true.

 

Although am 100% convinced they will go down the 'cloud' route soon and so it will work regardless of operating system or browser or software etc.

 

Nind you, does SQL server work on other operating systems? If not then this bring back previous comments about monopoly... but this time Capita is the victim (as it uses SQL not builds it).

[hailstorm]

That is true.

 

Although am 100% convinced they will go down the 'cloud' route soon and so it will work regardless of operating system or browser or software etc.

 

Nind you, does SQL server work on other operating systems? If not then this bring back previous comments about monopoly... but this time Capita is the victim (as it uses SQL not builds it).

 

Microsoft SQL server is unsurpringly Windows only. I'd hardly say Capita are much of a victim as there are many credible alternatives to MS SQL, most of which run on many different platforms.

 

They seem to be slowly moving some parts of SIMS to web based. Learning Gateway being one thing. The full functionality of SIMS via the browser is a long way off judging by comments on here from Capita. Learning Gateway carries some pretty hefty hosting fees from what I remember from a presentation I've had on it. Most schools have just gone with installing the full Sims client on their curriculum teacher's laptops.

[SteveB]

It would help if pricing from capita had some structure. It sometimes seems made up on the spot. Take for instance the difference between a Secondary and a Middle school taking up Lesson Monitor:around £3750 for the Licence and £1650 for the annual Maintenance. . . .

[CampusGuy]

I expect these extreme prices go down a bit!