Some Facts (Not Rumours) Required Regarding RM, Northgate and Redstone

[Richie1972]

We're going over to Interim Managed Services from January and it is now public that the bidders are RM, Northgate and Redstone.

Can anyone give me some FACTUAL pros and cons:

1. What happens to the Network managers?

2. What happens to creativity and development (as opposed to just having one system, hardware, software foisted upon us)?

3. What happens regarding other - not IT - jobs we do around school?

4. What about help desk (is it local to school or based in India)?

5. How much access and freedom do the remaining IT staff have?

6. How many redundancies have been made (either by economic reasons or change of conditions)?

7. What new opportunities are opended up (I don't mean moving on up the managed service provider)?

8. If there are any Network Managers left in BSF schools are they supported and allowed to stay - or are they "encouraged" to move on or up?

10. During the Interim service do things remain the same or do new systems, software and hardware get forced on us?

11. How are hours, holidays and salaries affected?

12. How are the remaining IT staff supported (local, remote only)?

13. What sort of improvement (or worsening) of service is provided by having EVERY IT call routing through a possibly foreign helpdesk?

 

Please note: I am looking for FACTUAL evidence and NOT hearsay - I need to reassure myself, my school, etc (or confirm the worst)

[Face-Man]

I suspect you will need to ask the bidders these things as each contract and bid is different. I'm surprised that things are moving that quickly when you still have three bidders as there is normally a lot of discussion with the last two. I would really try and get the Bidders to answer these question (and post them here) as they will be all charm at present and it will give you some promises to hold the winner to in January.

[Richie1972]

things are moving scarily quickly.

I know each bid is different, but I am just looking at info regarding each company's past experience to get an idea of how they'll treat us.

There has been info on here regarding job losses with RM (Hackney) just wondering if there wasn't much truth in that and that other companies haven't been doing the same (plus answers to my other questions from those who've experienced it would certainly help)

[elsiegee40]

It might be worth PMing Deaks

 

He's gone through the process with Northgate. You can search for his threads on here about it

[Zoom7000]

Hi Richie,

 

I'm due to be TUPEd over to RM on Monday. So I will do my best to answer your questions based on my experiences.

 

Contrary to popular belief, the process has been very smooth. RM have been very helpful and even though I had union backing, there was very little worry through the majority of the process.

 

1. What happens to the Network managers?

Nothing at all. My Network Manager is being TUPEd along with me. He will still be my immediate Line Manager in terms of the main contact point of the Network and delegation of tasks etc.

 

2. What happens to creativity and development (as opposed to just having one system, hardware, software foisted upon us)?

In terms of the Interim Service, very little. You'll find that 90% of your day to day activities will remain the same and aside from the increased logging of calls and the occasional reporting, it is very unlikely that any major changes will be made to your network until you move to the new school building. For us, it is no change. We can still purchase what we like, from who we like. Just ensuring that we get the best value for money and support which we do already.

 

3. What happens regarding other - not IT - jobs we do around school?

This depends entirely on the company taking over your employment. From experiences with previously TUPEd RM employees RM have been very open to local circumstances and 1 technician was even allowed to continue his voluntary teaching now that he has left his TUPE contract and been promoted to a fully fleged RM contract.

 

4. What about help desk (is it local to school or based in India)?

You will still be the main point of contact for in school support. Just as you have been previously. There is no Indian call centre. At least not with RM.

 

5. How much access and freedom do the remaining IT staff have?

Until the new school and new network, you are free to do as you wish as you currently do.

 

6. How many redundancies have been made (either by economic reasons or change of conditions)?

RM have never made any TUPEd employees redundant and none have left since being TUPEd.

 

7. What new opportunities are opended up (I don't mean moving on up the managed service provider)?

On my very first day, I am getting Call logging training, I have already been told another course is on the way and I have been told to complete a technical questionnaire to asses my needs for any further training. So yes, training and a lot of it. Which I welcome whole heartedly.

 

8. If there are any Network Managers left in BSF schools are they supported and allowed to stay - or are they "encouraged" to move on or up?

No one is forced one way or another.

 

9. You missed number 9!

 

10. During the Interim service do things remain the same or do new systems, software and hardware get forced on us?

99% of systems, software, hardware etc will remain the same. You may have to deal with a new call logging system, but everything else will hardly change for the time being.

 

11. How are hours, holidays and salaries affected?

Not at all. This is the point of TUPE. These will be honoured exactly as is currently. Your paydates and holiday terms may change to reflect the company dates, but the amounts will be fully honoured as per your current contract.

 

12. How are the remaining IT staff supported (local, remote only)?

There is a remote support helpdesk, either at HQ or a local office. But these are fully available for your benefit and there are escalation routes available too.

 

13. What sort of improvement (or worsening) of service is provided by having EVERY IT call routing through a possibly foreign helpdesk?

This doesn't apply in my situation. Maybe come the new school staff may be required to log calls through RM, however, this is an individual school decision based on what the school feels suitable.

 

Don't get me wrong I went through some of the very same worries that you are experiencing right now, just see some of my previous posts. I was definately not a happy bunny at the beginning of the process. However, I'm already experiencing that we are getting more support than I have in the whole 4.5 years I've been at school and considering I wasn't even employed by RM yet, this is pretty decent of them.

 

All I've gotta say is don't believe all the rumours. It's not as bad as it sounds and you'll probably find that it benefits you both personally and professionally.

 

If you wanna know anymore, feel free to drop me a PM.

[Richie1972]

I was worried about missing one out - subconsciously I still missed it out

Ok, that has reduced my fears - slightly.

I thought RM had been making redundancies:

 

http://www.edugeek.net/forums/bsf/15289-job-losses-hackney-bsf-rm.html

 

Or is this just rumour?

[Zoom7000]

As far as I'm aware it's just rumours. BSF has been a very touchy subject and lots of rumours have flown around. I'm not aware of the Hackney situation, but I was told by previous TUPEd employees that it isn't in the bidders interest to make redundancies. In most cases the local technical staff are the most important asset if they are looking for a successful managed service provision.

 

Like I said, I can't speak for other bidders, but as I have been told on many occasions, RM have not got rid of any TUPEd staff.

[ngreenwood]

I agree with the answers to your questions. As a guy who has worked in a council run ICT team and now works for RM but was not TUPED I an in a unique position to step back and view it all.

 

1. What happens to the Network managers?

They get Tuped in the same role. Managed Services need onsite management just as much as anyone else.

2. What happens to creativity and development (as opposed to just having one system, hardware, software foisted upon us)?

Depends on the contract and the current situation of the school. If it is a complete rebuild then it will likely be a new ICT system. In the case of RM this could mean CC4.

3. What happens regarding other - not IT - jobs we do around school?

That is something you can discuss with the company

4. What about help desk (is it local to school or based in India)?

The RM helpdesk is in Oxfordshire

5. How much access and freedom do the remaining IT staff have?

Depends on Q2, but will stay the same in most instances

6. How many redundancies have been made (either by economic reasons or change of conditions)?

None that I know of, RM seem to be hiring as apose to firing.

7. What new opportunities are opended up (I don't mean moving on up the managed service provider)?

Moving up the technical ladder; support consultants, implementation of networks etc. Management ladder, e.g. Team Leader, Project Management.

8. If there are any Network Managers left in BSF schools are they supported and allowed to stay - or are they "encouraged" to move on or up?

Whatever they want to do, but RM are very good at promoting those that deserve it

10. During the Interim service do things remain the same or do new systems, software and hardware get forced on us?

Things remain the same, except the helpdesk

11. How are hours, holidays and salaries affected?

TUPE means that they stay the same

12. How are the remaining IT staff supported (local, remote only)?

Depends on requirements, usually both local and remote

13. What sort of improvement (or worsening) of service is provided by having EVERY IT call routing through a possibly foreign helpdesk?

It cuts down on the annoying calls, e.g. My computer wont turn on; because its unplugged! The hardest part is getting teachers to give the correct information

 

If you are prepared to work hard then getting Tuped will be the best thing that can happen to you as it will help you progress your career.

 

These are my opinions and experiences only, and in no way am I speaking on behalf of my employer

Edited April 6, 2009 by ngreenwood

[russdev]

To make clear all RMs telephone operations are in UK (one of two places Oxfordshire or Glasgow). They have Indian office (which deals with RM online side of stuff plus do technical stuff overnight remotely on customer servers if need be.)

 

Russ

[Moby]

Richie,

 

I'll chose my words carefully mate. Having worked on both sides of the fence, (if you get my meaning) I'll happily give you the benefit of my experience:

 

1. Network managers roles normally cease to exist, simple as. Some schools retain their previous Network manager as a go between, or for looking after systems that the outsourced company doesn't support. Its a managed service mate, in my experience the network manager isn't needed.

 

2. Ah one of the big problems with BSF is flexability. The problem with one size fits all is, it doesn't. The level of flexability you have comes from hammering out the school's needs in the endless bargining that goes on prior to go live, so be pro-active mate.

 

3. School's problem to resolve

 

4. Helpdesk location - Depends on the company. Some have a help desk in a central location, other's just log calls via the engineers onsite as the work is requested. Not heard of one in India yet though!!!

basically managed service does not work without a good quality help desk. This is how the company gets paid, and how the LEA's claw money back for SLA's missed.

 

5. Again, this will be combination of hard bargining and what's in the contract. Managed services are normally kit plus maintenance, then any other service via heated debate!

 

6. None as far as I'm aware. Desktop support staff are TUPE'd straight across and normally get the best deal. System managers either, continue to work for school in some other form, accept a slightly different role with the company or simply chose to find another job. You need to get whoever is incharge of the TUPE process to push for details. Your poisition is very strong prior to the migrartion. (That's what I did). I was lucky, my school gave me 12 months notice of my role disappearing and could not have been more supportive in trying to help me find another job. Training/SIMS/Whiteboard's/Securus/Website are all areas where you might be able to continue to work for the school. Just remember though Richie, this is 2009 and no job is for life.

 

7. Very few in my experience

 

8. See point 1

 

10. Depends if your a re-build or new build. Normally Managed services want to start out with new kit. This diecision is normally taken at LCC level.

 

11. If your TUPE'd they are the same for at least 12 month's I think. You are legally protected. Private companies normally can offer better benefits, and may want you to sign a new contract after 12 months. You might be asked to work full time or you might not, totally depends. You are almost certain to get better training and career development. bear in mind RM were voted the UK's number 1 company to work for so its not all bad news.

 

12. depends on size of school. One manager will normally look after 3-4 school's so you should see the boss once a week minimum.

 

13. Primary school's get a good deal, secondary schools, I've never heard any school say the service was better under BSF. Truth

 

If you are more than 2 years away from going live on BSF I'd not worry too much. Based on the country's finances, the current depression, and that the college's have all ground to a halt due the govement no longer having funds, I think BSF will simply fizzle out. When labour lose the next general election, the the whole project is likely to be scrapped anyway.

 

Moby

[tmcd35]

Richie,

When labour lose the next general election, the the whole project is likely to be scrapped anyway.

 

Moby

 

OT: (but irresitable political quip!) - I never thought I'd find a compelling reason to vote tory Oh-hum.

[russdev]

i think what this shows is that big differences between contracts. Key is this one persons view in there LA etc and different companies and different LA contracts have different experiences.

 

Russ

[srochford]

OT: (but irresitable political quip!) - I never thought I'd find a compelling reason to vote tory Oh-hum.

 

Not sure that this gives you a reason. I could well see the next government scrapping BSF but keeping the idea of "managed service providers" As most people seem to feel, the driving force is saving money. If you can save money on the IT and save money by not building new schools, what's to lose? (and yes, that is a rhetorical question!)

[russdev]

Lot of people are thinking that torys might not get away with scarpping bsf as might be bad pr move.

 

Russ

[Geoff]

OTOH there's a vast hole in the governments budget for the next 5 years that needs plugging up.

[timzim]

Richie,

 

When labour lose the next general election, the the whole project is likely to be scrapped anyway.

 

Moby

 

 

The Tories haven't said they'd scrap BSF - they just want to cream off some of the funding from BSF and spend it on New Academies, whatever they are (see this drivel). Do you suppose all we badly-paid NMs would get a better deal out of this?

[cerberus]

Just to pick up on 2 points in this thread.

 

I have a little experience of said company.

 

RM do have an Indian call center and they will frequently phone you

up and ask you to do the five troubleshooting steps you have indicated

in the the call notes that you have already done.

 

RM's policy is to promote you if your 'face fits' or you have great

interview skills. Ability is rarely considered and once an appointment

is made you can be as inept as you like because your manager will never

admit he picked the wrong candidate for promotion.

 

RM used to be about the kids and the education and I still have a lot

of time for Mike Fischer. Unfortunately RM is now in the hands of

the bean counters. It's all about market share and no longer about

delivering IT solutions that actually benefit the curriculum.

 

If you want to be a 'bleeding edge' computing school and you get

assimilated to RM then your dreams are over. RM's system works well.

It's reliable and guarantees high availability and security. However

it is also a straitjacket and you can kiss innovation and creativity

goodbye.

 

(sorry.. very personal opinions expressed, I know)

 

C

[Grommit]

I agree with the answers to your questions. As a guy who has worked in a council run ICT team and now works for RM but was not TUPED I an in a unique position to step back and view it all.

 

1. What happens to the Network managers?

They get Tuped in the same role. Managed Services need onsite management just as much as anyone else.

 

No they all don't a lot of them have been told by RM especially in Hackney that they can apply for the RM Pool jobs and that they won't be TUPED over. and the senior Technicain will be the point of contact at the scholl because the School is managed by RM not the Network Manager

 

I think hackney is losing a 1/3rd of its Technicians...

 

Also read http://www.edugeek.net/forums/educational-jobs/34616-2x-technician-bsf-kent-1.html about how TUPING is not secure

Edited May 14, 2009 by Grommit

[ngreenwood]

I am sorry to hear that but at the end of it all if you are good enough you will get one of the pool jobs and progress much quicker than when employed by the council. Same as any private sector employment.

 

The example you give is Northgate, what I see everyday with RM is network managers who have been TUPED over and then promoted to positions which they are really enjoying.

[Richie1972]

I am sorry to hear that but at the end of it all if you are good enough you will get one of the pool jobs and progress much quicker than when employed by the council. Same as any private sector employment.

 

The example you give is Northgate, what I see everyday with RM is network managers who have been TUPED over and then promoted to positions which they are really enjoying.

 

 

Which is fine if you want promotion and don't mind travelling all over the place.

As for me, I'm happy where I am and at my current level, so whichever company takes over it looks like I'm stuffed... unless we get one of the few companies that still realises the vlue of having local staff

[Grommit]

I am sorry to hear that but at the end of it all if you are good enough you will get one of the pool jobs and progress much quicker than when employed by the council. Same as any private sector employment.

 

 

Oh look threre's Laa Laa, Tinky Winky, Dipsy and Po... wheeeeeeee lets go play in la la land...

[broc]

I am sorry to hear that but at the end of it all if you are good enough you will get one of the pool jobs and progress much quicker than when employed by the council. Same as any private sector employment.

 

The example you give is Northgate, what I see everyday with RM is network managers who have been TUPED over and then promoted to positions which they are really enjoying.

 

A lot of people here have worked in industry before; a world ruled by accountants, where the only thing that matters is the balance sheet, shareholder value, and bonuses. A world where staff are hired & fired short-term to make the books balance, where employee satisfaction & job security has no place..... where end users are simply that; names, numbers, job requests, problem reports..... a treadmill..... where employees have 'utilisation' targets to meet.....

 

When I left the 'commercial' IT industry to work in a school, it was because I wanted to be part of an organisation that was not driven by profit & greed..... where you went home at the end of the day feeling you had helped someone & added real value. I was also looking forward to having regular hours, reasonable travelling, being able to go home each day rather than staying in yet another 'clone' hotel room. You may think a life on the road, with a company car & company expense account looks attractive, but the novelty soon wears off. I took a 60% pay cut to work in a school, but at least I regained control of my life & increased my chances of surviving to retirement age

 

Being TUPE'd into a big commercial organisation driven by profit may suit some people, but not me.

 

Sadly, BSF is mostly about profit......

[GrumbleDook]

It is not just down to the individual service provider (RM, Northgate, Redstone, etc) but also down to how the LA set everything out to start with. Remember that the LA only care about the education of the students and not the people sorting out the boxes on the desks, etc ... a few will be learning the lessons of previous waves but that is only really going to hit wave 4 school onwards (if you are lucky).

 

It all boils down to how prescriptive or adaptive the LA make the original papers that the whole strategy is based on. If you can get access to those docs it will give you a better idea about the direction the LA is expecting the school to take as well as setting out how much flexibility there is for the school to do their own thing or make their own decisions.

 

It will also highlight which jobs that you may already be doing that will get shoved elsewhere (eg CCTV into building management). Look for the missing bits such as A/V, learning resource creation, staff IT CPD ... others who are post TUPE can say what the schools have suddenly found are missing and the MSP needs to be chased about.

 

Central support varies ... some use it, others don't ... again it is down to the LA request. Some here can give you some horror stories of how a call from a teacher in a classroom has to be made to the central team which is then farmed out to the local support staff who then find it prioritised in their job list below other items ... when it is actually the teacher next door to the office has a bulb blown that can be swapped there and then ... but others can tell you about how it is almost (only almost) working as normal ... it also depends on the previous set up of the school. Some like Grommit have found it nearly unworkable but of the wide changes made ... but other schools with limited and poor existing support will find it an improvement.

 

Get the LA papers if you can ... and if you have bad or good press about a particular MSP see how the LA docs compare.

[SpuffMonkey]

 

When I left the 'commercial' IT industry to work in a school, it was because I wanted to be part of an organisation that was not driven by profit & greed..... where you went home at the end of the day feeling you had helped someone & added real value. I was also looking forward to having regular hours, reasonable travelling, being able to go home each day rather than staying in yet another 'clone' hotel room. You may think a life on the road, with a company car & company expense account looks attractive, but the novelty soon wears off. I took a 60% pay cut to work in a school, but at least I regained control of my life & increased my chances of surviving to retirement age

 

Being TUPE'd into a big commercial organisation driven by profit may suit some people, but not me.

 

Big ditto from me - very similar story.

[glensc]

No they all don't a lot of them have been told by RM especially in Hackney that they can apply for the RM Pool jobs and that they won't be TUPED over. and the senior Technicain will be the point of contact at the scholl because the School is managed by RM not the Network Manager

 

I think hackney is losing a 1/3rd of its Technicians...

 

 

 

Being a school technician in Hackney myself, I'd love to know where your getting this information from and how upto date it is, as :

 

All contact I've had from RM, and also my collegues here, has been that school technicians will be TUPED over.

 

I don't know if that also applies to the LEA technicians, maybe it's that the aplying for RM pool jobs might apply to them, which would make a fair ammount of sense as they would not be part of the school personael infrustructure.

 

In many areas the LEAs would have also been a rival bidder, so there may, in some circumstances, be a bit of PR spin involved, hoping to influences the outcome.

 

Personally I'd rather be TUPED to RM, who come out well in polls on how companies treat their staff, than to a LEA setup bidder, your link to the Kent situation being a good example of why.