Sixth formers as network support help?

[theriver]

Hi

 

I feel like a fraud posting here, as I don't work in education (any more)! But I need some valid opinions on this subject, so please bear with me.

 

A school local to me is having apparently horrendous technical and staffing problems. Support is quite patchy and staff are not able to rely on the teaching network, to the extent that they are preferring to not use it. The admin network is suffering too. Obviously this is a stupid situation and is causing all sorts of problems.

 

It occurred to me that if:

 

- the curriculum network and admin networks are separate

 

or

 

- someone who knows what they are doing sets things up properly

 

then would it be feasable to set up a small group of sixth formers as network support for the curriculum network? If overseen by a member of staff, who would also look after the admin side, would this help or hinder?

 

If the training/implementation was done properly the students could get something out of it too.

 

Am I being naive or daft? Has anyone ever tried this? Any advice?

 

Cheers.

[john]

There is another thread on here with a bit of discussion on 6th formers and students supporting the schools LAN, but I cannot emphersize that a good Network Manager is a must in any school nowadays, and remember the bits of paper ain't the beeall and end all, its ok saing your an MCSE in 2003 but if you cannot use it in practice its a waste of time! I may not have the bits of paper but I do put MCSE people to great shame and have done recently!

[Dos_Box]

Welcome, I do belive you have come to the right place. It sounds like the school is having major problems, but be assured that they are not the first, nor will they be the last to have problems such as these.

I will go out on a limb here and state that the main root cause of the schools problems is either

:

 

a. Poorly trained network support staff caused by 'b'

b. Lack of funds.

 

My advice would be to get an experienced network manager in place (one from an educational IT management background (NOT a former head of ICT though!)) and pay them a decent wage, because you will get what you pay for, and if they pay penuts then they will loose their staff very quickly indeed.

 

As for using 6th formers, I would suggest that care should be excersised. Whilst they can perform minor duties such as changing toner catridges and minor desktop support, the core management such as user creation and control, network management etc should only be done by a professionsl onsite network manager or technician as many legal aspects such as the data protection act start to kick in. Also 6th former are only there for a short time and any experience they have is lost when they leave.

 

Sorry if this is a little short, but I don't have the time to write as much as I'd like due to reasons everyone else here knows about.

[GrumbleDook]

Other possible solutions are to contact other local schools that have existing systems and get advice from their network manager, maybe even share then for a period of time.

 

Depending on your needs you may not need a network manager full-time.

 

There are some schools that do this quite well, and once the use of ICT picks up in the school you can look for a more full-time solution.

 

Without a good network manager in to start with I wouldn't even suggest contacting the local Uni for students to be sent to the school on placement. They need someone there to feed from and learn the required skills from.

 

Another suggestion would be to look on the ICT Register (http://www.ict-register.net) to see if there are any local schools that provide a support service (I know some do in Manchester and in other areas of England). This could be a stop gap (or even a permanent solution!)

 

If the senior leadership in the school are reluctant to put the money behind tech support then point them at the ICT Register too ... even the hardiest of manglement speaking schools on the register will tell you that you need to invest to get the results.

[russdev]

Well said db...

 

Yes get a decent network manager in argument to put forward is this that school has got this network and no one one is using it then out a network manager in he then makes it reliable.

 

This is in turn makes teaching and learning improve and that means school view get improved both via good ofstead but also general view of the school which means more new kids and in turn means more money...

 

Anyway if need help producing document on getting a network manager in full-time then let us know and sure we can help you create something

 

Russell

 

Russell

[Geoff]

Wouldn't OFSTED pull the school up for having a non-existant IT support infrastructure?

[Guest]

Where in the country are you at?

[russdev]

op words were "staff are not able to rely on the teaching network" in which case no it would be flagged up as area of concern as network is there but not reliable....

 

Russ

[Joedetic]

If the VI formers had had prior training as opposed to being thrown in at the deep end then yes.

 

I'm biased as i'm a VI Form techie (or was up until about a week ago when i officially finished school now making me outside support).

 

Initially showing them what to do and letting them loose on a live system is ill advised. And to have a group of them to keep track of would be a nightmare.

 

Some well trained VI Formers can be an invaluable resource and could quite easily run 80-90% of helpdesk requests as they are usually trivial things. But as ever problems with DPA will crop up and keeping tabs on a group of teens could be more of a problm than it's worth.

 

The key is, if you want somethign done right, pay a professional to do it.

 

You want a network manager or maybe some sort of external network engineer from a company such as Class-Technology (formarly Tulip Computers UK).

 

As for training, the students would only benefit from the disruption it could possibly cause to their studies if they are definately going to continue to use it later in life.

 

My knowledge of networking and various systems helpted to reduce my uni offer by 80 points! So it has some use

[ITWombat]

I am glad it worked out so well for you. Remember us when you end up at some large IT concern producing the stuff that ends up in server rooms and classrooms

[russdev]

lol should say 'student techies' are good idea just dont use them as replacement for a fulltime network manager otherwise will keep having issues..

 

If schoolhas got the money...

 

Fulltime network manager, student techie from uni on placement and a 6th student techie.

 

if going down that format and net man job is anywhere near Leicester then let me know

 

Russ

[indiegirl]

Where in the country are you at?

 

Ready to offer your services are you Sysman?!

 

Seriously, 6th formers are great for the small and repetitive tasks - we use them here as part of a curriculum assistance programme that the school runs - they had to do X number of hours a week assisting a business - and a couple chose to help us out.

 

However we give them no access to any of our servers, and they aren't even allowed to change passwords, setup users. They serve the purpose to take away the strain of the toner cartridge/mouse/keyboard swaps that come in every day, allowing us to concentrate on the development side of things.

 

At the backbone of every school IT network there should at least be a Network Manager who is there to drive the development, organise purchasing, etc etc.

[or in my case - the Network Manager says what he'd like to do and I'm expected to put it into practice. Bitter, moi?!! ]

[Guest]

Well you know, always looking for the next project

[acb_]

We have two sixth form team members, it helps take the strain off us a fair bit.

 

They don't have rights to set up accounts, change passwords or see anything they shouldn't.

 

They do run network cables, change cartridges, install printers, initiate rebuilds, troubleshoot, bring machines back for repair, take the empty cardboard boxes to the bins, etc etc

 

They are also our eyes and ears round the school, picking up on misuse or poorly machines.

$_HOY

It works quite well, especially when we remember to give them full instructions like 'Take this printer over to Room 12, install it, print a test page to prove you installed it, dispose of the packaging, then come back here for your next task' They're good lads, just possibly in a world of their own most of the time...

[theriver]

Well, the thread's been dormant for a few days now, so I guess everyone's had their say.

 

Some interesting ideas.

 

Thank you for your contributions.

[RoyG]

Not just 6th-formers - over many years I've found student help with running the school IT systems absolutely invaluable.

 

I've very, very rarely given any significant access to servers, but have been able to allocate loads of specific tasks to students which have subsequently been adopted into the school's systems.

 

Recent examples -

Linux server set up by a Year10 student, which will host our school's website and Moodle VLE from September.

PowerMac set up by 3 Year11 students for video editing in Drama Department. So successful that we've bought 2 new iMacs for general school use.

School website designed by Sixth Form group - now maintained by Admin staff.

 

Several 6th formers in the past have helped out with server setups - one of them was subsequently employed by us as a consultant after his graduation.

 

I'm willing to accept the fact that most kids are capable of picking up new ideas & new technologies a lot quicker than us slow-learning adults! Sure, you have to be a bit cautious in what responsibilities you trust them with, but our school's IT facilities would be very much poorer without the input of many students past and present.

 

It's all about getting the kids on your side, instead of confronting them with over-regulation and prescription.

 

RoyG

[MkII]

I had a kid from Y9 helping out till he left Y13. He learned a lot, and was able to contribute a hell of a lot, saving the school a small fortune. He was extremely keen and was a good help. Pity it all turned sour in the end. New Head > severe ristrictions > dissilusioned kid.

 

New students I've tried don't have the same commitment or interest, so i'm struggling to get it working again, especially with the Heads attitude - maybe if I were a teacher and spoke the language i'd get on better! ]. But we know yours is a privellaged school RoyG but any tips greatly appreciated. 2 kids did assist in setting up linux servers and moodle installations very successfully, and I always have at least 2 of our kids on work experience for a couple of weeks every year [i think it's 5 this year]. I suppose smaller tasks such as these can be valuable too.

 

To answer the original question, no way could you set on students on thier own to look after the curriculum network. The DPA would prohibit it, so that's a non starter.

 

As others have said, you need a proffessional lead and then you could use basic support as we've given evidence of. Then you need for that lead to have the time to commit to train up these understudies - no mean task, liable to a certain failure percentage anyway, and with your target trainees, even worse with the high turnover.

 

So economically speaking, a good Network Manager should be the first step, and depending on the quantity of support needed, more bodies.

[ITWombat]

It's all about getting the kids on your side, instead of confronting them with over-regulation and prescription.

 

RoyG

 

Ah Mr. Pied Piper of Hamelin, we meet at last

[tosca925]

Sixth formers as network support help?

 

Perish the thought...............the ones we have here I would not trust as far as i coul throw them.

[RoyG]

New students I've tried don't have the same commitment or interest, so i'm struggling to get it working again, especially with the Heads attitude - maybe if I were a teacher and spoke the language i'd get on better! ].

 

But we know yours is a privellaged school RoyG but any tips greatly appreciated

 

As others have said, you need a proffessional lead and then you could use basic support as we've given evidence of. Then you need for that lead to have the time to commit to train up these understudies - no mean task, liable to a certain failure percentage anyway, and with your target trainees, even worse with the high turnover.

 

So economically speaking, a good Network Manager should be the first step, and depending on the quantity of support needed, more bodies.

[RoyG]

Try again!!!

 

New students I've tried don't have the same commitment or interest, so i'm struggling to get it working again, especially with the Heads attitude - maybe if I were a teacher and spoke the language i'd get on better! ].

I know I'm fortunate in having been on the teaching staff and have a good relationship with teachers & SMT. I know that lots of you have less good working relations, but the totally negative attitude I read in some posts certainly can't help! Above all talk to people, put your point of view, be professional. I know it won't work every time, but things sure as hell won't improve if you don't try!

 

But we know yours is a privellaged school RoyG but any tips greatly appreciated

Yes, ours is a Grammar School. But as I've said before, that simply means we have a brighter class of villain! Kids are kids! Not all the kids I've tried to use to assist me have been any good, but it's been worth taking some chances for the invaluable contribution made by some of them. Tips - talk and listen to the kids, give them old machines to play with and try new stuff, ask what they want and, within reason, try to help them. Check out with IT teachers which kids they might recommend. I simply don't believe that any school has NO kids who could be useful.

 

As others have said, you need a proffessional lead and then you could use basic support as we've given evidence of. Then you need for that lead to have the time to commit to train up these understudies - no mean task, liable to a certain failure percentage anyway, and with your target trainees, even worse with the high turnover.

So economically speaking, a good Network Manager should be the first step, and depending on the quantity of support needed, more bodies.

Agree 100%.

[pete]

When I started here, we had a 6th former looking after a suite of machines in the 6th form centre. He was solely responsible for those machines, but didn't have any permissions greater than local admin (and read access to shares for drivers etc). He was very good, knew his stuff and would ask us if he wasn't sure. When he passed his A-Levels and left, we were sad to see him go. His replacement was........unsatisfactory to the extent that we haven't had a 6th form tech since.

 

So yes, 6th form techs can work, but getting technical competence, ethics and responsibility in the same package is hard. We'd also never give them the ability to administer anything network based, which protects them as much as it does the network.

[MkII]

Ah Mr. Pied Piper of Hamelin, we meet at last!

Haha! - funniest thing i've read in a long time - thanks Wombat! [apologies Roy ]

 

I know I'm fortunate in having been on the teaching staff and have a good relationship with teachers & SMT. I know that lots of you have less good working relations, but the totally negative attitude I read in some posts certainly can't help! Above all talk to people, put your point of view, be professional. I know it won't work every time, but things sure as hell won't improve if you don't try!

I'm a tryer Roy, but it actually gets me into trouble with my present Head. At one point she was checking with fellow Heads locally, but the advice, rather than address te issue, was along the lines of "what the hell is this insignificant idiot you pay shirtbuttons doing trying to give one of us Gods advice".

 

Funny last week, at our resource committee [read group to tell me what to do, no resources are allocated by any other than the Head] that now numbers 6 managers and me, I stood up to one manager saying that I should correct all the DiDA e-Portfolios as I thought that should be part of teaching - advising the kids how to make the thing properly... The Head jumped down my throat as was about to unleash the boot from on high... when the other 5 managers backed me up, and put my case in teacher speak. Dunno what they said really, it was the terminoligy they used, but you see what I'm saying - us techs are too low in your typical educators estimation.

 

I have "issues" I know but, I look at it like this:

 

under-appreciated dude/s with severe job ownership issues and a job that demands effective responsibility Vs schizophrenic ignorant control freaks

[RoyG]

Mark -

 

Your Head must be one of the totally short-sighted and power-crazy variety that are screwing up relations in so many schools! Keep talking to the other 5 SMs who backed you on this occasion.

 

Nil illigitimi carborundum - don't let the b*stards grind you down!!

 

RoyG

[MkII]

Hehe! Cheers Roy