Open Source Schools: Getting technical staff on board

[dhicks]

Hello All,

 

I've just got back from today's Open Source Schools "Curriculum Support Workshop" meeting held in London. There were a dozen or so people there representing a pretty wide range of interests and roles in both schools and open source software, with me, I guess, representing the "network manager" role. The discussion lasted four hours, and was all recorded with FlashMeeting so footage should soon be available.

 

So, from the network manager's point of view: during the discussion, there were the usual grumbles about how the systems at various schools were "locked down" so that staff and pupils couldn't install software on computers. I tried to get accross that this is because computer networks need to be secure and teachers and pupils will cheerfully install pirated software if given half a chance. These people aren't, generally, technical experts, they are teachers, so this is something that maybe doesn't occur to them.

 

We then discussed software installers. Peter Kemp, who works for TeachFirst and runs the OpenEducationDisc Project, was there, and we discussed how to actually get various bits of open source software installed on school networks. What people maybe haven't realised is that we, as network managers, want easily-deployable solutions - basically, we want an MSI file and an easily-customisable set of install parameters that will allow a piece of software to be install easily over a (Windows) network. The WinLibre project was mentioned, which sounds like it might be worth some further investigation.

 

The OpenEducationDisc provides a facility to let us dish out CDs to pupils so they can use software at home, but isn't really an option for most of our networks - we can't install from CD on to a couple of hundred workstations. If we could finish off the missing bit - get all this great software easily installed school-wide, set up properly and ready to be used - then the advantages of open source would really start to show, i.e. pupils can use the exact same software at home as at school, it's all free and the network manager doesn't have to fret about licensing.

 

We also discussed producing training materials for teachers, easy-to-understand stuff that teaches teachers how to teach some subject matter with a particular piece of open source software. I thought people might have been over-estimating some teacher's definition of "easy-to-understand" - I'm sure we can all think of plenty of teachers who, say, don't know what a URL is, so giving them the address of a resource will just confuse the heck out of them. My idea was to produce some training materials to teach teachers how to teach curriculum material, but with the intention that these materials be supported by a member of technical staff - someone to ease the user along when it comes to the computery bits.

 

If anyone has any suggestions or points to add to the above, please say. I think in-school technical staff are a really important group to reach if we want to get schools using open source software properly, more so than possibly most other people realise - heck, I am in-school technical staff, and I know the problems we face in getting stuff installed and keeping our systems secure, so your ideas, solutions and experiences would all be very much appreciated.

 

--

David Hicks

Edited February 17, 2009 by dhicks
Named OpenEducationDisc properly.

[dalsoth]

Love open source and to be honest most of the software on my windows computer is open source. I also dual boot Ubuntu. To use open source operating systems in education though is very difficult without plenty of knowledge to back it up.

 

I would dare to say we have quite a few linux experts on these forums but most will be used to windows. Like you pointed out, the hard part is getting the damn stuff to the stage where you can just deploy it all without problems.

 

I know there are various projects out there that try to make open source in schools more viable to the majority but we are not there yet. I do let students use things such as open office but that is about it really.

 

I would love all of the linux experts to concentrate on a few focused linux projects aimed at reaching critical mass rather than shooting off in thousands of different directions never really getting to where we all hope they should be. I guess it would be nice to go to a site that has produced a solution for schools that has detailed documentation (not linux speak and millions of lines of sudo judo) for server installation and initial set up, details to configure and deploy clients remotely and locally, deploy packages across the network and troubleshoot the types of issues we currently face on our windows systems.

 

We would also need some sort of training manuals ala the MS Press certification books on how to manage and configure these systems

 

I guess it would have to be massive. Perhaps this is one for Edugeek and the Linux Geekers out there to work on as a project ?

 

Now that would really change education as we know it.

 

Until those things happen i think i will stick with my windows boxes at work and my dual setup at home

 

Will check out the flashmeeting if it becomes available as it sounds interesting.

[localzuk]

The ideas are good, but on the training point, what technical staff? Many schools have 1 person doing it all, so training people doesn't come up high on their list of things to do. They simply don't have time (I know I certainly don't!)

 

To be able to do an open source roll-out, the training needs to be done by teachers, not technical staff. This way, the trainers know how to communicate in the right way for those people who, as you say, don't know what a URL is.

[mberry]

Thanks for posting the above, David.

There's an unedited, four hour long, recording of this afternoon's meeting at FlashMeeting Memo , thanks to David's rather impressive management of the webcam.

Whilst much of the focus of the discussion was about helping teachers in using open source to support, enhance, extend the curriculum, the Open Source Schools community is a good mix of teachers, technical staff and LA/policy types. We're quite keen that it remain that way - reflecting, I hope, the way that open source projects have room for folk doing core development, modules, bug-fixes, feature requests (usually, quite a few people in this group) and documentation. Be great to have lots more folk from here over there.

[dhicks]

Love open source and to be honest most of the software on my windows computer is open source.

 

It's mainly Windows I'm thinking about here - installing software on Linux isn't a problem, you simply write a script to go do an apt-get or two and you're done.

 

To use open source operating systems in education though is very difficult without plenty of knowledge to back it up.

 

I don't find that problem - Ubuntu pretty much installs itself, either as a stand-alone client or as a thin-client server, and server-side you always need to go through and figure stuff out whether you're on Windows or Linux. The issue, perhaps, is with the application software - there aren't the curriculum support materials available (this is what we were discussing at the meeting today) and getting application software, of any kind, to install on a Windows network can be a right palavar. We, the community on this site, needn't fret about the curriculum material, that's for someone else to deal with, but I'm suggesting that we might be able to solve that last issue - after all, we must all be putting lots of effort into getting certain applications installed, maybe if we could all pool our efforts it'd actually be way less work.

 

I've just had a look at the WinLibre project website. It seems to be something similar to the Google Updater, installing (and, I assume, updating) applications over an Internet connection. What do people think: would that be a better approach than trying to create a stack of MSI files? Would it be better to aim for a WinLibre/Google Updater style all-in-one installer application, but designed to install educational software (probably skipping the chat, client-side email and network analysis software) and designed to run over a LAN (so each install didn't use Internet bandwidth)? Or would a collection of MSIs be better, hopefully ones that could be properly modified via an MST transform to set various install-time options?

 

I know there are various projects out there that try to make open source in schools more viable to the majority

 

Well, yes, that'd be Open Source Schools, for one :-)

 

We would also need some sort of training manuals ala the MS Press certification books on how to manage and configure these systems

 

Absolutely - network managers and suchlike need information too. Getting a bunch of teachers enthusiastic and then having them go back to their schools and dump the job of getting new software researched, installed and configured properly is going to annoy people (lots of us on this site, for a start).

 

--

David Hicks

[DrPerceptron]

Training doesn't have to be classroom based, I read it and I immediately thought great, training books, resources either as videos or whatever so I have one less thing to worry about...

 

I can install this fancy dancy software and not worrying about having to know just enough about it fake knowing what I'm on about.

 

I totally agree with dalsoth though, I have no problems with Linux, I have problems with the bazillion flavours it comes in and the general lack of OoB administrative tools, yeah, the CLI is great and all powerful, it is in HP switches too... that doesn't stop me being a lazy ass though and using the GUI wherever possible.

 

Edit: @ dhicks, my personal preference is, if I want to install software to a room a PC's, I'd rather do it at at least 100mb LAN, 1gb if it's there, it also leaves the net open for other people to use for other purposes and it means that it's one less point of failure to sort - IE: if the internet goes down, I can't install this software, if the network's down, I can't install it anyway... but if it's MSI based or whatever, then it's easy enough to fire around when it's convenient.. MSI's also repair themselves too

Edited February 17, 2009 by DrPerceptron

[localzuk]

Training doesn't have to be classroom based, I read it and I immediately thought great, training books, resources either as videos or whatever so I have one less thing to worry about...

 

Videos and training books would simply not do. I've produced various documents, send out a newsletter termly, and put status updates on our intranet - all of which is promptly ignored by most staff - and is usually followed by phonecalls and post-its complaining that they hadn't been told or shown how to do things.

[dhicks]

To be able to do an open source roll-out, the training needs to be done by teachers, not technical staff. This way, the trainers know how to communicate in the right way for those people who, as you say, don't know what a URL is.

 

Good points - so we need to aim for clear, easy-to-deliver material that can be delivered by slight-more-technical teachers to less-technical teachers?

 

Training doesn't have to be classroom based

 

The training I'm talking about here is the day-long CPD type stuff, aimed at non-technical teaching staff, teaching them how to go about using free and open source software in their lessons. We're talking about producing training resources that can be used as exercises on teacher training days. Half, if not more, of the problem is that teaching staff aren't like us - they don't automatically search Google for answers (or "page fault on knowledge", as Joel Spolsky put it), they don't read error messages, they panic when the computer doesn't do exactly as expected.

 

I have no problems with Linux

 

Forget Linux for the moment, we're concentrating on open source application software on Windows at the moment (and, thinking about it, Macs - anyone out there have to manage a network of Macs?).

 

but if it's MSI based or whatever, then it's easy enough to fire around when it's convenient.. MSI's also repair themselves too

 

Ah - if they're properly constructed, of course. My issue, like yours, with Google Updater is the fact that it downloads data from the Internet - what we as network managers need is maybe a similar system but one that works by caching application installers locally and getting them to client machines via the LAN. This might mean having some server-based application to cache installers, or it might mean getting installers via HTTP so they wind up cached by your web cache. Either way, this means someone writing a Windows client application to install a bunch of open source applications.

 

The other option is to go for a library of MSI files, ready to deploy. The issue is with creating those MSI files - that can be quite a task. We do have the advantage that we're talking about open source software here, so we could potentially actually build an MSI installer properly from the source rather than cobble something together out of the various kludged solutions out there.

 

--

David Hicks

[shutdownplease]

Good points - so we need to aim for clear, easy-to-deliver material that can be delivered by slight-more-technical teachers to less-technical teachers?

 

on the training side (as im a teacher - not a tech)

 

cd's with copies of all open source software must be made available. this should hopefully encourage teachers to try it at home and get themselves interested in the product (and reduce incompatibility issues between open source at school and retail software at home)

 

single day CPD training sessions obviously work well in some schools rather than others but im personally not fond of them unless they are being used to kick off a period of regular training sessions (observations etc)

 

from what i follow on the technical side yes it may be relatively easy to get open source rolled out across the network but its the 'culture' within the school which will take far longer to change. teacher's and pupils (without consciously thinking about it) are going to be 'used' to how retail versions of software work. changing small applications like putting audacity on instead of a retail audio editor may go unnoticed but changing a big one like your office suite or even the whole operating system is going to have a huge impact.

[srochford]

I've mentioned Softgrid before and how it can make it easy to deploy apps (including Open Source). This post goes into more details and I think it's a really good way of getting stuff onto the desktop quickly and cleanly.

[SimpleSi]

You say forget about Linux - but if its so easy to deploy apps in Linux why not have computers dual booting with Windows/Linux and use all the open apps in Linux?

 

All you need to do is lock down Linux sufficiently so that the more advanced students can't access things they shouldn't.

 

Once this scheme works, Windows could get demoted to running in a VM in Linux and world domination is complete

 

regards

 

Simon

[Ric_]

As others have mentioned... open source is great for us... whack it on every machine and no worries about the licensing. Most of the stuff is cross platform too so both PCs and Macs can have it. I've also found the Windows Installer Wrapper Wizard a great way to make rough-and-ready MSIs for quite a few pieces of software.

 

The problem is, as has been said already, getting the teachers to teach with it. They need a real incentive to use $obscureSoftware rather than the usual paid-for stuff.

 

I'm going to be a little controversial here... teachers are inherently lazy. There's nothing wrong with that... I'm lazy... I don't like manually installing software on 300 computers or even walking to the other side of the site unless I really have to. However, this laziness coule work in favour of open source software. If a community were to produce guides on using software (videos, etc.) and also produce example lesson plans that included open source software for a variety of subjects, teachers would then be inclined to try it out.

 

I know lots of teachers that 'borrow' lesson ideas from others so why not use it to benefit the good cause that is open source software? These lessons could even be pre-packaged for easy import into Moodle or other learning platforms (since they should all be SCORM compliant).

[SimpleSi]

Or produce a Linux VM with all the goodies pre-installed and ready to run- may as well make use of the these new fangled dual-core processors and give the other CPU something to do

 

regards

 

Simon

[pete]

I'd prefer a centralised repo for security patches and packages that I can mirror inhouse - clients automatically updating via the Internet in an unmanagable way isn't desirable or likely to work correctly due to proxy restrictions or users interrupting the update.

 

My dream is puppet or apt-get and apt-proxy for windows, or a WSUS-alike for OSS.

 

We put a fair bit of OSS on our images, but I'm not comfortable pushing things that need regular-ish security patching (like Firefox) out without a means of ensuring they're maintaining acceptable patch levels (that isn't a disproportionate drain on my time).

 

Re Macs: We've found the http://www.finkproject.org to be pretty handy.

[SYNACK]

Another vote for MSI here, if there is one thing that I truely hate it is software that demands you use its own proprietary deployment method, or no method at all. Virus checkers are some of the worst for this insisting you use their special console to install to all your pcs while they are all on and not in use (when is that ever the case). MSIs FTW, minor updates with MSPs for even more winning glory.

 

I totally agree with Ric_'s assesment, provide example lesson plans of good enough quality and the teaching comunity will follow the path of least resistance right to the software in question. Maybe an opensource EDU portal with lesson plans and resources like the ones avalible for IWB content would be a feasible idea.

[p858snake]

...All you need to do is lock down Linux sufficiently so that the more advanced students can't access things they shouldn't....

The theory in Linux is the reserve, you have no permissions to run as a basis and you have all allow and add stuff on to allow them, compared to windows where you have to disallow and remove stuff to make it secure.

 

...The problem is, as has been said already, getting the teachers to teach with it. They need a real incentive to use $obscureSoftware rather than the usual paid-for stuff.

 

I'm going to be a little controversial here... teachers are inherently lazy. There's nothing wrong with that... I'm lazy... I don't like manually installing software on 300 computers or even walking to the other side of the site unless I really have to. However, this laziness coule work in favour of open source software. If a community were to produce guides on using software (videos, etc.) and also produce example lesson plans that included open source software for a variety of subjects, teachers would then be inclined to try it out.

 

I know lots of teachers that 'borrow' lesson ideas from others so why not use it to benefit the good cause that is open source software? These lessons could even be pre-packaged for easy import into Moodle or other learning platforms (since they should all be SCORM compliant).

It's not always the teachers fault, some schools (or techs) are simply like "from now on you have X instead of Y on the systems" without advanced warnings or help afterwards so they are stuck in the middle with no idea of how to do things, theres also the issues of teachers being told that they have to teach X and can't deviant from said plan.

 

There are also other factors like external agencies that want stuff in specific formats (eg: Word 2003 instead of Word 2007 or PDF format).

 

And some teachers will arrive at a new school and be given the work/text books and be told to teach out them and then be handed more classes on a subject they know nothing about and have to spend all their time reviewing work for that so they know what to teach and won't have time to create their own equipment.

Edited February 18, 2009 by p858snake

[Ric_]

It's not always the teachers fault, some schools (or techs) are simply like "from now on you have X instead of Y on the systems" without advanced warnings or help afterwards so they are stuck in the middle with no idea of how to do things, theres also the issues of teachers being told that they have to teach X and can't deviant from said plan.

 

There are also other factors like external agencies that want stuff in specific formats (eg: Word 2003 instead of Word 2007 or PDF format).

 

I don't think that anyone is saying to take away the choice of software. I would always advocate installing open source software in addition to the existing software (at least initially). For instance I install MS Office and OpenOffice, Photoshop/Fireworks and GIMP, etc.

 

And some teachers will arrive at a new school and be given the work/text books and be told to teach out them and then be handed more classes on a subject they know nothing about and have to spend all their time reviewing work for that so they know what to teach and won't have time to create their own equipment.

 

This gets back to my point... provide an easy route for the teaching staff and they will take it. Nobody wants to spend 25 hours a day preparing lessons so give them examples that they can tailor to meet their own needs and they will use them.

 

Remember that all their lesson plans and materials are already geared around $payedForSoftware so you need to provide an alternative so that teachers are not doing all their work again.

[Bezwick]

All you need to do is lock down Linux sufficiently so that the more advanced students can't access things they shouldn't.

 

Simon

 

Here in lies the problem. I am the NM here at this school and i would love to do this. However i have been using Windows since NT 3.51 and know how to lock down all the versions up to 2003 (Still learning 2008). There are several kids here who are very into linux and know far more about it than me. If i was to implement this solution how could i be sure if I had done it wrong until it was too late.

I am confident with Windows as i have been using it so long, but would be worried it could be a disaster if i tried to move to a Linux solution.

So i would love to learn how to do it, but i dont have the time nor could i risk it, on such a potentially volatile network.

Would imagine i am not the only one in this predicament either. Linux is very complex, very different to what i am used to and comes in so many flavours.

How would i know what version to use, let alone whether i had implimented it properly?

Dont get me wrong, for those of you who do know what you are doing i am slightly envious, wish i could. But would need to hire an external company to ensure i was doing it right. All this complexity, time and cost make it a very difficult option.

*goes onto Amazon looking for Linux for Dummies*

[dalsoth]

This is where i believe that there would need to be real technical manuals like the MS certification books as i mentioned earlier that would allow you to learn this stuff in a relatively easy format. Everything i see with Linux involves whipping out the terminal and typing sudo this apt get that blabla.

 

I can go online find a fix for something in Linux and paste it into the terminal but i don't really know what i am doing. I have dabbled with Linux many times since RedHat 5 and forget everything each time i stop using it for a while. Ubuntu is fantastic but if you asked me how i could lock down a user on Linux i would wet myself. If you asked me to unlock some system settings i would wet myself

 

We need a school network administrators guide for the complete planning, installation, maintenance of Linux servers and clients to make it work. How would i patch my systems? Like you guys mentioned, would i use a WSUS system if i wanted to preserve bandwidth? How do i actually set that up? Roll out software updates from the Linux server? Is there a GUI? I do avoid the terminal and command prompt whenever i can. I want to try these things and avoid a license model if i can but feel like i don't have the skill-set to try.

 

So many things would stand in the way but that being said i would love it if something actually came of it.

 

Linux has fantastic support around the world but it is like a black art to Windows administrators and the technical documentation would have to be geared towards moving from a Windows environment to a Linux one and the like for like differences that you would come across.

 

I know i have picked Linux here and the focus as mentioned is not necessarily on Linux but on Open Source and particularly on Windows platforms but i could not resist as it is something i would love to see happen.

 

Good ideas on the learning resources that could be used as an incentive to move staff towards OSS. I think we may all be guilty here though when we fail to get OSS in to regular use. I know that if i were to really put in supreme effort and give up some of my free time, be it after school or during break times i may be able to convert more people to OSS and teaching with it. Some would like help full stop but i am sometimes stubborn to work beyond my time.

 

It could work but we, as much as the teachers would have to change some of our habits and start to mingle more with teaching staff and help out more in lessons. Some may do this already. I am rarely caught in a classroom unless it's empty of students. If i tried harder perhaps things would happen, maybe that is the same for others here.

 

Just a thought.

[SYNACK]

Professional Linux training and certification has been avalible for a while now from Redhat, the skills are transferable between distributions:

https://www.redhat.com/training/

https://www.redhat.com/certification/rhce/

[dalsoth]

I was aware of the certification for Linux but i don't think that is what i was hinting towards here.

 

I was talking a Linux school system that could be applied anywhere by Edugeek users. Perhaps on test labs at first.

 

Is Red Hat the best Linux flavour for schools to use? No idea. Would we all need to spend a long time getting certified on Linux before we would be able to roll out such as system? I hope not. I would expect the Red Hat certification would explain generic commands for all flavours but i really don't wish to learn tons and tons of programming code such as you get with many of the Linux courses and training manuals.

 

I was talking more a transition route from a school network using purely Windows to Linux. I know some here have Linux certs and I'm sure they are invaluable. Some of us are certified on MS some are not. It helps but ultimately this could be done without going down that route provided the school specific needs and requirements were catered for.

 

I have seen a few Linux for schools systems before. EduBuntu i think is one OS designed for education. How i would go about using that in my school with Linux servers or Windows servers i do not know. Seen Karoshi mentioned too. Even checked out the website and was hit with a wall of..... nothing. Could not even find a decent screenshot or guide or any real info on what it was about. Not a good start.

[somabc]

I was talking a Linux school system that could be applied anywhere by Edugeek users. Perhaps on test labs at first.

 

You mean a custom edugeek distro? (say modified edubuntu)

[dalsoth]

Yes, it would be a great project but the administration guides and set up documentation would need to be immense and aimed at all technical levels. Remember we have those that are not too hot on Windows let alone Linux. There are also those that are highly skilled with Windows but would be left typing dos commands in terminal if it was placed in front of them.

 

To be honest i think it would be very hard to put into practice. There are political and technical reasons why it would fail in many schools.

 

It's a nice idea though. A real resource for real school techies based on school environments brought up on these forums a thousand times over.

 

What antivirus would i need? Would i need any? How do i apply roaming profiles? How do i lock down Firefox from the Linux server?

 

All these things would need to be addressed before a school with no Linux knowledge would be able to try this out. This is why i think it would be extremely difficult. Others have tried but then others did not have a community such as this with specialist knowledge on the problems that would need to be addressed and overcome.

[KarlGoddard]

You mean a custom edugeek distro? (say modified edubuntu)

 

+1 for that idea

[featured_spectre]

All you need to do is lock down Linux sufficiently so that the more advanced students can't access things they shouldn't.

 

KIOSK could do that without a problem. Infact on KDE 4.2 we have a suite running with that, and using KIOSK. Some of the teachers were not even aware that they were using linux!

 

Look into it. As for the opendisc, an excellent resource, downloaded and handed out to the staff via there inboxes at work