Makes you proud to be British.......

[grumpy_git]

I'm definitely not an advocate of sitting at home and living off the taxpayer - however, if someone is genuinely unemployed and is trying to work (by going round, applying for jobs etc) then all credit to them.

 

I'm currently studying at uni and work part time around this. I could, like some do, sit at home all day when I'm not at uni, but I don't want to. For starters I can't stand sitting at home for more than about a week - it drives me nuts. It is a bugger, because I don't drive and public transport is appallingly restrictive and costly. Some mornings it's 2 hours to get to work and the same in the evening, and once at work about 2.5 hours until I'm earning money for myself, not paying off train/bus fare. I'd love to be able to be more flexible, and I'd also love to earn more than the cleaners and dinnerladies, but I still manage to drag myself into work in the morning.

 

I do however know many people who will complain about being "skint" and then go and throw money down the drain at unnecessary things. I probably don't need to work and could live off my student loan if I tightened up quite a bit, however, I want to.

[mattx]

Err, it's you who's the one moaning.... Seeing as you started this thread....

 

Big difference, I have a job & pay my taxes etc. I feel I have an entitlement to moan about lazy people who want everything for nothing and who are not prepared to work for it.

 

Oh, and just to add about the lazy git in the actual story moaning about Bus fares etc, stop smoking and pi55ing your money on mobile phones and trips to the cafe and get a push bike. Then you will be able to go to job interviews etc. Either that or use the two things you were born with - LEGS. Amazing things legs - they enable you to walk. If you can walk to the cafe and to the shops to get your fags, you can walk to a job interview.

Edited January 14, 2009 by mattx

[Gatt]

Big difference, I have a job & pay my taxes etc. I feel I have an entitlement to moan about lazy people who want everything for nothing and who are not prepared to work for it.

 

Oh, and just to add about the lazy git in the actual story moaning about Bus fares etc, stop smoking and pi55ing your money on mobile phones and trips to the cafe and get a push bike. Then you will be able to go to job interviews etc. Either that or use the two things you were born with - LEGS. Amazing things legs - they enable you to walk. If you can walk to the cafe and to the shops to get your fags, you can walk to a job interview.

 

completely agree with you - though maybe not with the mobile phone - least put the minimum top up on it so you can then call/be called for interviews, etc..

 

Until a month ago, I had to either walk or get the bus/train to my places of work cos I couldn't drive - it wasn't pleasent - especially in the Winter - but I still did it - cos I needed to work and earn some money...

[torledo]

.

 

I really hate the fact that I get taxed out my ass each month in everything that I pay... only for half of it (anyone actually got any figures?) to go on people who are faking it or cba.

 

 

I haven't got exact figures but 2006/2007 NI contributions totalled 90bn in govt. revenues, income tax some 150bn. These two alone make up over 40% of govt. tax revenues.....the other biggie is VAT.

 

Cost of unemployment benefits is tens of billions so they are significant sums,

the official figures compose a lot of different benefits but the unemployment benefits and oncosts probably are half of NI revenue.....

 

but how much was the bank bailouts again and the cost to the economy of the financial crisis this year alone ?

 

And here's a more pertinent question, how much is paid in tax credits [means tested benefit] to people IN work ? Last article i read said it was in the region of £15 billion....(some of that goes to groups who don't have to work) And that it's lost £1 billions a year through fraud and incorrect information every year since it's introductoin. It's as big a waste and does nothing to address poverty and social mobility as the out-of-work benefits but it's hailed a success.....and people often don't realise how many people are being subsidised to the tune of billions.

 

Is it ok to work a few hours a week [or claim to work a few hours a week] and still claim thousands a pound in working and child tax credits ?? Are you somehow not an objectionable benefit sponger thru tax credits becuase you push a mop around for a few hours a week ?? does that make it alright in one's narrow view of the world ?

 

Becuase guess what the system allows that and rewards certain groups of people quite handsomely. In my opinion the tax credits system only encourages people to play the system even more so than unemployment benefits. And tax credits does not encourage people to better themselves and seek improvement in wages.....they wouldn't want to lose any entitlements same situation as the unemployment benefits.

[mattx]

I haven't got exact figures but 2006/2007 NI contributions totalled 90bn in govt. revenues, income tax some 150bn. These two alone make up over 40% of govt. tax revenues.....the other biggie is VAT.

 

Cost of unemployment benefits is tens of billions so they are significant sums,

the official figures compose a lot of different benefits but the unemployment benefits and oncosts probably are half of NI revenue.....

 

but how much was the bank bailouts again and the cost to the economy of the financial crisis this year alone ?

 

And here's a more pertinent question, how much is paid in tax credits [means tested benefit] to people IN work ? Last article i read said it was in the region of £15 billion....(some of that goes to groups who don't have to work) And that it's lost £1 billions a year through fraud and incorrect information every year since it's introductoin. It's as big a waste and does nothing to address poverty and social mobility as the out-of-work benefits but it's hailed a success.....and people often don't realise how many people are being subsidised to the tune of billions.

 

Is it ok to work a few hours a week [or claim to work a few hours a week] and still claim thousands a pound in working and child tax credits ?? Are you somehow not an objectionable benefit sponger thru tax credits becuase you push a mop around for a few hours a week ?? does that make it alright in one's narrow view of the world ?

 

Becuase guess what the system allows that and rewards certain groups of people quite handsomely. In my opinion the tax credits system only encourages people to play the system even more so than unemployment benefits. And tax credits does not encourage people to better themselves and seek improvement in wages.....they wouldn't want to lose any entitlements same situation as the unemployment benefits.

 

Thats all very interesting and if you like you can call me someone who plays the system as I get tax relief on my two kids. My missus has only just started back at work - [ for the first time in 8 years WITHOUT claiming a single penny ] after bringing up my two. During that time she did VOLUNTARY work at the local school and guess what - she is now being paid for a part time position. See what Voluntary work does......But as she is not earning enough money you could call her someone who plays the system as she does not pay any tax !!

But the main issue here are the two lazy bums in the story who would not know what a hard days work is.

I bet you - [ after paying the relevant tax ] that if you took their benifits away from them they would be working within a few weeks as it would be a SHOCK to their system that to put food in their mouths they have to earn this thing called money instead of just holding out their lazy ' never done a hard days work in their lives' hands. Either that or they would be on the streets.

BTW - Good morning.

[tmcd35]

Thats all very interesting and if you like you can call me someone who plays the system as I get tax relief on my two kids.

BTW - Good morning.

 

Erm, Good morning!

 

Why is that 'playing the system'. Those tax credits are there for a reason. You are entitled to them. You should be claiming them. Well done for having the courage to bring up two kids - I'm yet to make such a big step.

 

I was thinking about this in the car on the way home yesterday (would have posted last night be left the lappys PSU at work )

 

I don't think this is a social issue. I think this is more a political issue that the government can and should solve. It's too easy to blame the kids for not studying hard enough at school - kids will be kids, as said before it's what they do once they realise they made a mistake that's important. It's also too easy blaming the parents, what do they do? Blame their parents, how many generations do we go back before we realise there's little point in partitioning blame?

 

It seems to me that the benefits system is flawed. If people can 'play the system' and earn more from claiming benefits than going out to work. Here's my fix...

 

1) We should not scrap benefits - socially wrong - but the government should cap benefits so people are paid the minimum needed to survive and no more. One weekly payment and all food, bills, rent, etc must come out of it. None of this free rent, paying mortgages, etc that you here about.

 

2) Whatever the figure is for item 1 should be the same for everyone - ie not means tested (except for point 3), and should be way below national minimum wage. As in, it would be more beneficial for anyone to get even the lowest of low jobs than to claim benefits.

 

3) If all you can find is part time work then the benefits system should reward/reflect that. So if you work 14 hours a week you'd be able to claim 26 hours pro rota on benefits. The more hours you do in paid employment, the more you take home compared to benefits. Incentive to find work.

 

4) Companies should be encouraged (maybe financially) to employ british citizens first. As it stands I don't blame any employer for taking on a Polish worker (for example) of a brit. I know they'll work harder and probably be able to pay them less. From a business point of view why would I want to take on the brit?

 

Just my thoughts in the car on the way home last night. Feel free to tell me what an ID10T I am

[localzuk]

There seems to be something strange being implied in this thread and that is that people think that anyone earning benefits is 'playing the system'. As far as I'm aware, people in work mostly pay tax (unless you are earning pittance, or are really rich and can afford accountants to swindle your way out of it). That act, in my eyes, gives them an entitlement to some support. (Even the ones who don't earn enough to pay tax! As they're not just on the dole at least).

 

It is all about trying. If you try and work, try and get jobs, make an effort to not just drain the system then fine, benefits are for you until you get something suitable, but if you just cba, or seem to think that there is little benefit of getting off the dole for a tiny bit difference in income then you should not be allowed to carry on in that way.

 

Torledo asks how did/how would I pay off £20k in debt? Well, it's where you come to an agreement with the bank, and then simply pay a set amount per month until you earn more, then pay a bit more etc... until it is paid. I've paid off a quarter of my debt in 2 1/2 years. It has been tough, you don't see immediate gains of pay increases etc... but I know that in X years, I will be free and clear of debt, and then my work will pay off and I'll, to me, be rolling in it.

[jamesb]

Which i far more than the 2 people in question have, well im assuming anyway, and probably 90% of people on the dole too. Remember now the cost of car insurance for a young person, especially a male, is out of this world. My friend payed £2500 for his first car at age 18 iirc, and that was for a 1.2 clio! (Bad area = silly premium)

 

They have a house. They have a television. They have mobile phones. They can afford cigarettes and trips down the cafe. Hell, they even quite obviously have food. I had to live off free tea and biscuits for my first few days in the job.

[localzuk]

I had to live off free tea and biscuits for my first few days in the job.

 

7p noodles for me

[mattx]

I don't think this is a social issue. I think this is more a political issue that the government can and should solve.

 

It becomes a social issue when you have lazy arse people like the article / story shows.

Benifits are for people who deserve help and aid etc. These people [ in the article ] don't deserve anything in my eyes as it's clear they don't want to work. They don't want to work so therefore they don't want to earn money, so therefore don't give them anything !!

Its also people like them that give honest people who are looking for work etc a bad name.

I wonder just how many more people take this sort of attitude to life ?

[alexknight]

Good morning.

 

I don't think the intelligence of the two in question is that low. They have learnt how to milk the system, as most do, and they can get themselves dressed, go to the shops, catch a bus etc etc. Now if they were not able to femd for themselves for whatever reason, well hell yeah, support them as much as they need.

 

They do have life set skills but choose to use them to do nothing of worth.

 

Intrestingly enough there was a program on BBC, Skint, which in my opinion, shows the type of people who do need a helping hand, as they are trying to progress.

 

They have had problems, still make mistakes, but there outlook is positive despite tradegys and knockbacks.

 

BBC iPlayer - Skint: Debt Special

 

have a look.

 

Alex

[tmcd35]

It becomes a social issue when you have lazy arse people like the article / story shows.

Benifits are for people who deserve help and aid etc. These people [ in the article ] don't deserve anything in my eyes as it's clear they don't want to work. They don't want to work so therefore they don't want to earn money, so therefore don't give them anything !!

 

Don't you think the system is flawed though when they are forced to make a decision - Go out to work and earn less than being on the dole, or stay on the dole. To make matters worse if the job is only temp getting those benefits back is very difficult. Better to stay on the dole until a suitable job comes along that does pay and have some kind of long term progression.

 

I've seen many a member of my own family faced with the exact same dilemma. It's not an unwillingness to work. It's just not economically viable to rake the work on offer. It was only getting his PCV licence that recently pulled my Dad out of this vicious cycle.

 

The benefits/income support/dole system should actively encourage work rather than invite this type of question.

[mattx]

Go out to work and earn less than being on the dole, or stay on the dole.

 

Go out to work and get some more skills and apply for other jobs whilst working. You will have more of a chance getting on if a future employer sees you are actually working towards bettering [ if there is such a word ] yourself. It's amazing what different skills & experience you can get from actually working. Sitting around in Cafe's to me does not get you those skills.

To me it's a no brainer - to others it's yet another excuse not to work.

[mattx]

Intrestingly enough there was a program on BBC, Skint, which in my opinion, shows the type of people who do need a helping hand, as they are trying to progress.

 

They have had problems, still make mistakes, but there outlook is positive despite tradegys and knockbacks.

 

BBC iPlayer - Skint: Debt Special

 

have a look.

 

Alex

 

Thanks for that, watching it now..........

[tmcd35]

Go out to work and get some more skills and apply for other jobs whilst working. You will have more of a chance getting on if a future employer sees you are actually working towards bettering [ if there is such a word ] yourself. It's amazing what different skills & experience you can get from actually working. Sitting around in Cafe's to me does not get you those skills.

To me it's a no brainer - to others it's yet another excuse not to work.

 

To me you've just made a correct argument for volunteer work or night classes, college, university. Any of which these people could and should be doing.

 

I don't however see it as a convincing argument, when you're living on the poverty line, to go out and take a job that generate a lower income than you are already on, no job security and no career progression. Under those circumstances I'd stay on the dole!

 

Again I say, it's the system that needs changing to reward honest work and encourage the employment of British nationals over legal immigrants.

[jamesb]

Volunteer work, if I remember correctly, does not harm your status as regards receiving the dole. Not only that but working often means your living expenses are lower. You do not need to heat the house during the day for one thing, people tend to smoke less while they're working as they have to take smoking breaks rather than lighting up, and there are other benefits.

 

Also, again if I remember correctly, there's a certain number of hours of paid work per week which won't affect your status.

 

I could be completely wrong on this, as its been a long time since I looked into it.

[korifugi]

The guy in question has three words to describe his situation, "Gutted. Depressed. Bored"

 

Well here's my four. "Get. Off. Your. @rse.",

or maybe even "Sort. Your. Life. Out"

 

I grew up in not too great an area - in the middle of a council estate, but I got out there - worked, scraped and got what I could, trying to get myself into apprenticeships and the like as they would allow me to get qualified while being paid. True - the wage wasn't great but it got me by.

 

True, part of the problem is the system. I'm not saying the dole should be abolished as it should be used a some kind of 'safety net', to tide someone over if they are made redundant of something else befalls them - but it shouldn't be used soley to live on. You want your expensive phones, fags and bling? Work for 'em!

 

Sorry if this comes across as a bit harsh but the whole "I can't be @rsed to work / Want everything given to me on a silver platter / The system should give me everything" attitude really annoys me.