New Macbook Neo

[synaesthesia]

1 hour ago, Roberto said:

With regards to Chromebooks - and this applies to the Windows laptops at this price too - a lot of the cheap chromebooks strike me as awfully flimsy and not likely to 'age' well, and I'd suggest that a Macbook Neo might last twice as long as a cheap Chromebook, so 2 devices that last 2 years each vs. one device that will last at least 4 years, the Macbook Neo stands its ground there at the very least.

Our Lenovo chromebooks from Covid would beg to differ, especially considering the 6 years of torture, vandalism, scratches, disgusting substances and Lenovo's diabolical build quality; and their direct replacements are still marketing for around the £200 mark.

[psydii]

Given that a 4 core Intel N100 (basically 4 efficiency cores from the 12th gen i5, which themselves are kinda a pared-down, die-shrunk skywell from 2015 with modern io and decoders)  is "good enough" when paired with a reasonable ssd and 8Gb ram... a laptop based around an A17Pro with 8Gb ram is going to be just fine.

 

It'll be interesting to see how these things compare in real-world office/business/teachery type tasks compared to say an Intel Core 5 120U based device, and whether the difference is noticeable. Or even how they do in Photoshop for gcse/alevel workloads... (the N100's don't, but the 120Us absolutely knock it out of the park)

[msi_school]

32 minutes ago, dmj said:

How old is that? I'm sure they've not made a laptop with a HDD since about 2018

A Mac Mini late 2014 model purchased in 2017 with the base HDD and 4GB RAM the HDD was limiting from purchase and after I put in a aftermarket SSD update the low RAM became noticeable all in four or five years after purchase.  

47 minutes ago, TheHyperTechie said:

Agree, however... This is a tactical move from Apple (of course). If they allowed configurable specs like RAM, SSD etc it would completely wipe out their other product line up, people would just buy the Neo for £500 instead of spending £1000+ on a more expensive model.

I was replying to @drkmccy who I felt was a little over confident in his assertion that the specs where high enough for school use.

[paulkerton]

It's just another Netbook reinvention, and how many of those did we have cluttering up cupboards by 2011/2012 because they were underpowered and didn't have an OS that suited their operation?

There are going to be a lot of magpie moments over these devices, looking at the price point whilst not factoring in that there is no management solution or communications suite to go with it for schools, which will all cost extra.

They'll also ignore that it's basically a binned phone chip with one less core that Apple are repurposing because they weren't good enough for the iPhone. Added to that is USB 2.0 on one of the ports, memory bandwidth limitations, a lack of a backlit keyboard and a screen that isn't suitable for things like photo editing and absolutely no way to upgrade it.

 

That'll be followed by the inevitable disappointment when finding out they are an "everyday task" machine and aren't going to be powerful enough for some of the software you'll be asked to put on them, like Photoshop/Logic Pro/Final Cut/Blender/AutoCAD.

Great as an entry level Mac model for existing iPhone and iPad owners who can't justify £1000 on an entry level Macbook and need some lightweight use at home and are already trapped in the Mac ecosystem, but really not viable outside of that.

EDIT: Oh and the price doesn't include a power adapter. So that's more cost purchasing USB-C PD adapters.

"Some people have thought (that that's) a Netbook. The problem is Netbooks aren't better at anything. They're slow, have low quality displays and run clunky old PC software. So they're not better than a PC at anything, they're just cheaper. They're just cheap laptops and we don't think they're a third category device." - Steve Jobs during the iPad announcement - 2010

"We don't know how to make a $500 computer that's not a piece of junk. Our DNA won't let us ship that." - Steve Jobs on an earnings call - 2008

Edited March 6 by paulkerton

[DalekSec]

2 minutes ago, paulkerton said:

It's just another Netbook reinvention, and how many of those did we have cluttering up cupboards by 2011/2012 because they were underpowered and didn't have an OS that suited their operation?

There are going to be a lot of magpie moments over these devices, looking at the price point whilst not factoring in that there is no management solution or communications suite to go with it for schools, which will all cost extra.

They'll also ignore that it's basically a binned phone chip with one less core that Apple are repurposing because they weren't good enough for the iPhone. Added to that is USB 2.0 on one of the ports, memory bandwidth limitations, a lack of a backlit keyboard and a screen that isn't suitable for things like photo editing and absolutely no way to upgrade it.

 

That'll be followed by the inevitable disappointment when finding out they are an "everyday task" machine and aren't going to be powerful enough for some of the software you'll be asked to put on them, like Photoshop/Logic Pro/Final Cut/Blender/AutoCAD.

Great as an entry level Mac model for existing iPhone and iPad owners who can't justify £1000 on an entry level Macbook and need some lightweight use at home and are already trapped in the Mac ecosystem, but really not viable outside of that.

"Some people have thought (that that's) a Netbook. The problem is Netbooks aren't better at anything. They're slow, have low quality displays and run clunky old PC software. So they're not better than a PC at anything, they're just cheaper. They're just cheap laptops and we don't think they're a third category device." - Steve Jobs during the iPad announcement - 2010

"We don't know how to make a $500 computer that's not a piece of junk. Our DNA won't let us ship that." - Steve Jobs on an earnings call - 2008

 

I beg to differ, MacBooks are well known for having a great shelve life, i even say someone still using a MacBook Air 2011 the other day! (Did tell them it was time to upgrade though...) 

[paulkerton]

Just now, DalekSec said:

 

I beg to differ, MacBooks are well known for having a great shelve life, i even say someone still using a MacBook Air 2011 the other day! (Did tell them it was time to upgrade though...) 

Were. This is a processor that is roughly in line with a 6 year old M1 processor.

Edited March 6 by paulkerton

[psydii]

5 minutes ago, synaesthesia said:

Our Lenovo chromebooks from Covid would beg to differ, especially considering the 6 years of torture, vandalism, scratches, disgusting substances and Lenovo's diabolical build quality; and their direct replacements are still marketing for around the £200 mark.

Yeah the 100w series (apart from one duff model) are absolute troopers. As are/were the Acer B311 series. As long as they had good eMMC and a cpu four (real) cores they are fine for web based tasks or single application word *or* excel etc. Still going strong six years later.

[psydii]

2 minutes ago, psydii said:

Yeah the 100w series (apart from one duff model) are absolute troopers. As are/were the Acer B311 series. As long as they had good eMMC and a cpu four (real) cores they are fine for web based tasks or single application word *or* excel etc. Still going strong six years later.

In fact if it wasn't for the  requirements for flexibility to make the timetable resolvable, I'd be fine moving half our IT Suites to N100-class CPUs. In fact, by proxy, we have with the 3 "virtual suites" delivered through post-covid laptop trolleys (yeah the 2000s called and want their IT Strategy back).  But as it stands (for us) Photoshop  and Premier need to run well in all our suites and half our laptop trolleys.  Which is why I will be watching these MB neos with interest.

[psydii]

33 minutes ago, paulkerton said:

Oh and the price doesn't include a power adapter. So that's more cost purchasing USB-C PD adapters.

The neo's  only need 20W, and laptop trolleys have built-in usb chargers these days, so shipping power adapters with the laptops is just an unnecessary cost. 

 

Now I have heard it reported that the neo's dont' support fast charging, which might be a problem. I believe that our Lenovo 100w's do, and so a 20minute top-up on for  a set we forgot to charge last night gets us through 'til at least lunchtime. Without fast charging we'd be in a hole.  But perhaps the neo sips the battery sufficiently judiciously that it wont be a problem either.

[Synkrox]

22 minutes ago, paulkerton said:

"We don't know how to make a $500 computer that's not a piece of junk. Our DNA won't let us ship that." - Steve Jobs on an earnings call - 2008

 

Come on, times have moved on in the 15+ years since the netbook atom EEE PC rubbish that exists only in landfill and nightmares now. They had what, a 1Ghz single core CPU? and IIRC Windows starter only allowed 1Gb of RAM making sure it really was dogmuck.
The only benefit was better battery life than the power hungry chips of the time.

 

I'm not an apple fanboy but to my memory Apple don't tend to ship crap - so I think this will actually be alright. 

 

Noone running blender is going to consider one of these, but neither will/should they consider a £500 model of any other device.

[ICTDirect_Joe]

Honestly I'd guess that it will be really popular as a College/Uni laptop, and could just act as a "gateway drug" into the apple ecosystem. Could also see it being a popular business laptop for those who are frustrated with how Microsoft has been behaving recently. It's stepping on the toes of lower-end windows machines much more than on Chromebooks.

For me I'm seeing it as a positive next step to see full Mac OS on iPad - as they're proving it can run on the A18 Pro processor.

Disappointing that user upgradability/repairability is next to none, but then again Apple left that somewhere in the late 00's/early 10's.

Edited March 6 by ICTDirect_Joe
Correction of processor model

[APMerry]

2 hours ago, DalekSec said:

 

I beg to differ, MacBooks are well known for having a great shelve life, i even say someone still using a MacBook Air 2011 the other day! (Did tell them it was time to upgrade though...) 

I've still got mine! Tempted by the macbook neo to finally replace it.

 

As an everyday computer for life admin, this looks perfect.

[paulkerton]

18 minutes ago, Synkrox said:

 

Come on, times have moved on in the 15+ years since the netbook atom EEE PC rubbish that exists only in landfill and nightmares now. They had what, a 1Ghz single core CPU? and IIRC Windows starter only allowed 1Gb of RAM making sure it really was dogmuck.
The only benefit was better battery life than the power hungry chips of the time.

 

I'm not an apple fanboy but to my memory Apple don't tend to ship crap - so I think this will actually be alright. 

 

Noone running blender is going to consider one of these, but neither will/should they consider a £500 model of any other device.

That's the thing. 8GB RAM 15+ years later isn't that far removed from 1GB RAM then. Tahoe uses a huge amount of RAM on startup too. You'll find lots of people complaining about it eating RAM.

An A18 Pro is still a smartphone chip, just like the Atom was, neither built for intensive desktop tasks.

I'm afraid schools are going to think "It's a Mac, it can run X, Y, Z" when it simply won't be able to - especially any school that has the propensity to buy first, ask IT second. That shiny logo regularly and consistently blinds decision makers to the potentials of the technical debt they will be purchasing. 

Will it be a great little email machine, video watcher, web browser and document editor? Yeah. But beyond that it'll struggle, and I think the issue will be "It's a Mac" comes with expectations of what it'll be capable of. It will be a complete bind if you've got schools who rush out to buy things before understanding what they want them for.

[DrCheese]

2 hours ago, paulkerton said:

Were. This is a processor that is roughly in line with a 6 year old M1 processor.

 

The M1 still beats most other laptop CPUs in terms of usability & MacOS is leagues ahead of Windows on laptops.

 

I honestly don't know how people use wintel laptops for any long period of time without wanting to throw them out the Window. Battery life is universally garbage. Modern standby is awful (& leads to pulling hot laptops out of bags) & performance even on high end chips is rubbish compared to a desktop - Even worse when running on battery power (Most laptops throttle when on battery power)

 

My Macs have been the only laptops I've owned that have had desktop class CPUs, without melting into a slag heap & long battery life. I've had my fair share of Wintel laptops over the years between Macs and it was just a painful experience each time.

 

Edited March 6 by DrCheese

[DalekSec]

6 minutes ago, paulkerton said:

That's the thing. 8GB RAM 15+ years later isn't that far removed from 1GB RAM then. Tahoe uses a huge amount of RAM on startup too. You'll find lots of people complaining about it eating RAM.

An A18 Pro is still a smartphone chip, just like the Atom was, neither built for intensive desktop tasks.

I'm afraid schools are going to think "It's a Mac, it can run X, Y, Z" when it simply won't be able to - especially any school that has the propensity to buy first, ask IT second. That shiny logo regularly and consistently blinds decision makers to the potentials of the technical debt they will be purchasing. 

Will it be a great little email machine, video watcher, web browser and document editor? Yeah. But beyond that it'll struggle, and I think the issue will be "It's a Mac" comes with expectations of what it'll be capable of. It will be a complete bind if you've got schools who rush out to buy things before understanding what they want them for.

 

Think we've found Satya Nadella's burner account 

[DrCheese]

Remember - Mac's have a completely different arch to x86 devices - The memory is tightly intergrated into the CPU (Not seperate like x86) & has fast access to the storage as well. The speed isn't in the same ballpark.

 

We don't worry that iPhones/iPads tend to have 6/8/12gb - No one even thinks about it, they're just quick. This will be similar

[Norphy]

 

26 minutes ago, paulkerton said:

An A18 Pro is still a smartphone chip, just like the Atom was, neither built for intensive desktop tasks.
 

 

Benchmarks are saying that the A18 Pro is roughly on par with the M3 in terms of single threaded performance and on a par with the M1 with multithreading. Plus, the M Series of CPUs were derivitives of the A-series ones, while Atom was a clean room design. You can't really compare the two. 

 

The laptop obviously isn't going to compete with a MacBook Pro, but I think the CPU is going to be the least of its problems. I suspect the RAM, despite optimisations in macOS, is going to be the limiting factor.

[paulkerton]

27 minutes ago, DalekSec said:

 

Think we've found Satya Nadella's burner account 

Sorry I'm not a part of an unquestioning Apple cult who can see the problems this device will bring instantly.

Edited March 6 by paulkerton

[Davit2005]

There will defo be some "We bought these, we did not consult, they won't do this" moments.

 

I would not say I was a MAC fan boy either but jus dismayed on Windows desktop OSs of late. MAC does what I need as a daily driver and creative device without too much pain.

 

Putting off Tahoo update though.

[paulkerton]

5 minutes ago, Norphy said:

 

 

Benchmarks are saying that the A18 Pro is roughly on par with the M3 in terms of single threaded performance and on a par with the M1 with multithreading. Plus, the M Series of CPUs were derivitives of the A-series ones, while Atom was a clean room design. You can't really compare the two. 

 

The laptop obviously isn't going to compete with a MacBook Pro, but I think the CPU is going to be the least of its problems. I suspect the RAM, despite optimisations in macOS, is going to be the limiting factor.

It's the same thing, relatively low powered silicon forced into a higher powered role in order to hit a price point. Like you say, that RAM will bite people back when Tahoe eats 5GB RAM to sit on the desktop.

It's a netbook in a shiny suit with a price that's still premium compared to other machines of it's class.

Edited March 6 by paulkerton

[DalekSec]

12 minutes ago, paulkerton said:

Sorry I'm not a part of the Apple cult! 

 

You dont have to be part of the cult to see Apple hardware blows away most in its path atm, Laptop manufactures are limited not by their design but by Intel and AMD and x86, give it a few years and im sure windows will catch up with Snapdragon or w/e

 

12 minutes ago, Davit2005 said:

There will defo be some "We bought these, we did not consult, they won't do this" moments.

 

I would not say I was a MAC fan boy either but jus dismayed on Windows desktop OSs of late. MAC does what I need as a daily driver and creative device without too much pain.

 

Putting off Tahoo update though.

 

The amount of people i've seen jump to macOS in the last 3 years or so is massive, myself i was hugely anti-apple for years (there was a joke in my friend group about how much i hated apple), used a mac at work and then jumped ship within 6 months, even my brother who hated Apple more than me now dailys a mac. 

I even know a good handful of Edugeekers who were very anti-apple have now jumped over.

On the Neo front though i have these points, which i echo from MKBHD

If you are looking at the CPU benchmarks, this laptop is not for you

If you are thinking is 8GB RAM is enough, this laptop is not for you

If you are looking into the specs in depth in general, it is not for you

 

This is perfect for web browsing, and light office work and it stops there.

 

If you are being snobby beacuse 'its same old apple', what do you mean by same old apple? Making the best desktops and laptops on the Market for build quality and shelve life? You cant even get them on cost now and the Mac Mini and Neos are steals. Them building their own CPUs has moved them to the top of the game. Only thing they really suck at is gaming. 

 

A lot of old-skol tech people still have bad experiences of Apple and i get that, back in the dual core intel days but give their M/A series a try and you will be surpised how fast they are (and how bad windows now is!)

 

[psydii]

12 minutes ago, paulkerton said:

An A18 Pro is still a smartphone chip, just like the Atom was, neither built for intensive desktop tasks.
 

Those terrible Atom's of yore were a long time ago. They started getting quite good when they were re-implemented around skylake about a decade ago.  However, around the same time Apple's ARM implementation in phones was starting to beat intels mid-tier i5's in some benchmarks!  The A18 isn't going to be the problem for anyone considering the Neo.  Disk and RAM could be, and for those considering a fleet of them - they keyboard replacement story is going to be make-or-break.

[psydii]

11 minutes ago, DalekSec said:

On the Neo front though i have these points, which i echo from MKBHD

If you are looking at the CPU benchmarks, this laptop is not for you

If you are thinking is 8GB RAM is enough, this laptop is not for you

If you are looking into the specs in depth in general, it is not for you

 

This is perfect for web browsing, and light office work and it stops there.

 

The thing is *we* need to consider these things, because we need to know how far we can push them.  M1 8Gb machines are doing just fine here for music and media tech.  We need to consider whether these Neos might actually  be viable to replace aging intel imacs, or even 8 year old Ryzen 7's stuck on Windows 10.

 

Nobody here can tell the difference between the performance of a new laptop and one (of the same "class") that's 6 years old - because the SoC's and periphery components long ago reached a point where they're "good enough".

 

The A18Pro isn't a six year old chip. It's last years flagship iPhone SoC. 

[Alis_Klar]

Just try installing Chrome OS Flex on any old wheezing Intel machine and you'll realise just how bad Windows has got.

 

Microsoft is plainly consumer hostile these days.

 

I think Chromebook plus devices with Arm processors will be a competitor to the MacBook Neo and will soon be running an Android based OS. 

 

Really if your doing 90% of stuff in a browser the manageability of Chrome OS in Education blows MacOS and a messy MDM setup out of the water.

 

A 2016 Intel Macbook Air (can't be updated to latest MacOS) makes a superb Chrome OS Flex machine.

 

 

Edited March 6 by Alis_Klar

[msi_school]

My M4 Mac Mini which I absolutely love and would recommend to any one on Edugeek is currently using 13GB memory, which is slightly less than my HP ProDesk G7 which is using 14GB to show the same Browser windows and the same Excel spreadsheets.